Re: Can we ditch the dedicated squad idea?

**JMJ** · 08-29-2006, 10:40 AM

They can be utilized if we have CO's stepping up

I asked a CO last night for air support and the chopper was there in about 15 seconds. It helped us take a flag.

**Iamthefallen** · 08-29-2006, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by powersmoker

When is a chopper more effective?
When gets fifty kills randomly over the map?
Or when gets 10 kills and with every kill defends a flag or keeps a teammate alive?

But it's not 50 random kills. I've played a decent amount in and with TG chopper squads and I know that they're usually very responsive. A substantial amount of those 50 kills would come from supporting other squads in their objectives.

Just yesterday I was in a squad moving towards a flag and a chopper came buzzing overhead. The SL laughed and said "I love this server, I ask the commander for airsupport and I actually get it!"

Sorry, IMHO, putting the chopper in the infantry squad solves a problem that isn't there.

**Rick_the_new_guy** · 08-29-2006, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by JMJ

They can be utilized if we have CO's stepping up

I asked a CO last night for air support and the chopper was there in about 15 seconds. It helped us take a flag.

AT the end of the day, the Commander has got to make these things happen. I suggest more players command. If any reading have not done so, do it so that u can get a differnt feel for the game.

Things are really fun when u can coordinate with your Platoon win or lose.

And if your into leadership and teamplay then the CO seat in the TG house is for you.

**Ol'Smoke** · 08-29-2006, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Iamthefallen

"I love this server, I ask the commander for airsupport and I actually get it!"

I admit it happens, and as a commander i have directed airsquads a few times but it's extremely rare.

**Ol'Smoke** · 08-29-2006, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Rick_the_new_guy

I suggest more players command.

We should start a thread about that too.

**BaneII** · 08-29-2006, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by BHack

I always only fly in a dedicated squad. Lacking a commander who directs my attacks, this is how I, as a pilot, decide how to use my chopper/jet:

When I'm on the ground, USUALLY I'll spot a tank or enemy helo when I have no means of killing it. Or if I just want help killing it. Otherwise, I'm too busy lining up a rocket shot. I sort of assume everyone does the same thing.

As soon as I get up in the air I look to see where the squads are attacking (or being attacked), instead of just flying towards the enemy CP's and randomly killing things, I attempt to actively help a squad on the ground achieve it's objective. If I see one of the squads spotting a bunch of armor - as a pilot, this translates into "HELP!". Thats where I go. I'll clear the armor then circle around the flag while my gunner cleans up and wait for them to cap the flag or finish clearing the attackers. Then I fly away and repeat.

This viewpoint is the main problem with pilots. I use to spot system to tell my squadmates where targets are, not to direct some pilot, who I am not in communcation with, flying around somewhere on the map. If you arent in communcation with me as the squad leader, then you have absolutely no idea what I am trying to accomplish. Swooping down to destroy a tank that for the last minute my anti-tank guy has been working to destroy while I really wanted the troops on top of the nearby hill killed, doesnt do me any good and hasnt furthered my goals in the least. While the pilot may fly off patting himself on the back for a job well done, the event wasnt tactical. It was as random and whimsical as a lightining strike.

If you aren't in direct communication with me as the squad leader, then you are seldom gonna be effective in assisting me. Pilots are especially bad in making decisions out of contact since they have extremely limited intel on what is occuring on the ground and they are moving very fast. So I agree with Powersmoker. Outside of scrims, air support is pretty lacking. I really dont count on it when I squad leading based on past experience.

So let's highlight. Spotting a target does not equal "kill what's on this spot Mr. Pilot." Now it would be nice if there was an air support icon on the commo rose. That would be more effective. Maybe someone should work on that.

**icky** · 08-29-2006, 11:20 AM

I find that dedicated squads for choppers work extremely well. I absolutely hate when two people in my squad are wandering off in a chopper. We need 6 on the ground to be a solid squad.

If there is a chopper sitting on the pad at a flag we are defending, it makes sense to get it up in the air to help on defense, but if there is a dedicated pair who will make use of the chopper, I would rather send them up with it.

**BHack** · 08-29-2006, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by BaneII

This viewpoint is the main problem with pilots. I use to spot system to tell my squadmates where targets are, not to direct some pilot, who I am not in communcation with, flying around somewhere on the map. If you arent in communcation with me as the squad leader, then you have absolutely no idea what I am trying to accomplish. Swooping down to destroy a tank that for the last minute my anti-tank guy has been working to destroy while I really wanted the troops on top of the nearby hill killed, doesnt do me any good and hasnt furthered my goals in the least. While the pilot may fly off patting himself on the back for a job well done, the event wasnt tactical. It was as random and whimsical as a lightining strike.

If you aren't in direct communication with me as the squad leader, then you are seldom gonna be effective in assisting me. Pilots are especially bad in making decisions out of contact since they have extremely limited intel on what is occuring on the ground and they are moving very fast. So I agree with Powersmoker. Outside of scrims, air support is pretty lacking. I really dont count on it when I squad leading based on past experience.

edit: I'd also like to add that, as a pilot, I don't attack "as a lightning strike". I come in and attack a 'zone'. Most helo pilots aren't going to fly in, kill a tank, then fly off. If we see combat still ensuing below us, we're going to help out. I fly around and make sure everything dead before I fly off.

So let's highlight. Spotting a target does not equal "kill what's on this spot Mr. Pilot." Now it would be nice if there was an air support icon on the commo rose. That would be more effective. Maybe someone should work on that.

I'm not quite sure what the problem is here? Read what I wrote again. As an example, I see a squad on the minimap hanging around a CP that we own. Suddenly two tank spots show up next to the flag. To me, this means they are under attack. I fly over, kill the two tanks, then spin in circles over the flag looking for any other hostiles -- usually my gunner kills all the enemy infantry.

We obliterate EVERYTHING. But, even if I just swooped in and destroyed the armor, how was that not a good thing? As infantry, would you rather face the enemy in a tank, or the enemy soldier? I guess I look at it as, "hey, better than nothing." I know if I was defending a CP under attack by a few tanks and some infantry, if a friendly chopper swopped in and destroyed the tanks I'd certainly be happy with that.

I mean I see what you are attempting to say, that if you had a direct line you could specifically say to get the infantry north of the flag. But that just isn't realistic. If you had a direct line then you'd only have 4 guys on the ground. This weakens your squad cohesiveness, chatters up your comms with helo speak (not to mention my comms with useless squad chatter), and then means noone else can communicate with the helo at all. As others have said, I think the cost/benefit is off here.

**Tempus** · 08-29-2006, 11:53 AM

There should be a chain of command, and there should be cohesion in squads. A squad should not consist of some guy in a tank here, a medic over there, a couple of guys in a chopper somewhere else, and someone else flying a jet. That's what happens on public servers (if they're even in a squad at all), but it's not going to happen here.

I do understand the improved communication of having a chopper pilot within a squad, and surely it does happen sometimes, particularly on maps where the attack helos are at CPs (Oilfields, Dalian Plant), but in most cases, air assets should be at a CO's disposal.

**Rick_the_new_guy** · 08-29-2006, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Tempus

There should be a chain of command, and there should be cohesion in squads. A squad should not consist of some guy in a tank here, a medic over there, a couple of guys in a chopper somewhere else, and someone else flying a jet. That's what happens on public servers (if they're even in a squad at all), but it's not going to happen here.

I do understand the improved communication of having a chopper pilot within a squad, and surely it does happen sometimes, particularly on maps where the attack helos are at CPs (Oilfields, Dalian Plant), but in most cases, air assets should be at a CO's disposal.

Indeed. The biggest thing that is under used is the communication between SL and COs. Without the UAV/scanner, the CO further relays on SLs to report heavy movement. From here the CO should put down a attack icon down for the one and only jet squad to start carpet boming and strafing.

As a CO, just give the Top Guns an attack vector and they will take care of the rest.
Duke and Snail 88 know what i am talking about.

The whole reason why powersmoker started this thread IMO is becasue of one big reason. The CO function is not used to its potintial, periond.

as perry said there is a lot to do as a CO. Things would run a lot smoother if both COs and SLs communicated better.
The communications between squad members and Squad Leaders is much better than to SL and COs IMO.

My biggest pet peave is a squad leader with a TG tag that is miced up and does not report contact, or that the flag is questionable or it is lost or anything at all!!! They will just spawn some weres else and head back to the flag.
Hello!! talk to the CO, they may get a fire team to help out or bomb the area they are coming from.

**RocketPunch** · 08-29-2006, 02:34 PM

Personally I like the idea of having jet and attack helo squads. I think it is more efficeint in terms of distributing assets and make orders more streamline. It eliminates the confusion of initial deployment regarding who gets the jets/helo and there will be no confusion of what to do next when the pilot dieds.

It is even more critical to have dedicated air squads without a CO. How would the SL tell the other squads that the jets are avaliable if the he/she decided to pull the pilot to the ground? Or does every squad need to have one guy sitting on the runway to get the jet when it pops? If anyone thinks that getting air support is slow with a dedicated air squad, then you can almost forget getting any if it is part of a ground squad. How do you tell them you need it anyway? especially without a CO?

The only advantage I see by incorporating air assets to ground squads is it will make those squads with air assests stronger, but at the expense of the other squads; and I don't buy the idea that there is less teamwork involve with dedicated air aquads.

Transport helo is another story......

**IRS_Agent** · 08-29-2006, 03:31 PM

I agree with this idea, in some cases. If there is no commander, it should be done, the attack helo guns in PoE2 are powerful and when combined with the intel of guys on the ground, you can not only take out the ovious stuff like tanks and APCs, but also clusters of ground troops pinning down your squad. This empowers your squad and allows you to attack ANY target on the map. As for bombers, the frogfoot is AMAZING at ground support. A few days ago I jumped in the frog foot to suppport the AA instalation flag my squad was holding. Everytime the armor pinned them down I wiped it all out. So I think a chopper can be used for an attacking squad, and a bomber for a defending squad. But if there is a commander, there should be dedicated squads. And with some maps having multiple bombers/Atk helos, you can "empower" Most of your larger squads. I think this is another thing that we may think doesn't work as well, but if those of you that think the air squads should be dedicated test this out I think you'll at least agree that it is useful in some (but not all) situations.

**Evo<^|SiNz|^>** · 08-29-2006, 06:00 PM

Part of the problem with having a helo or jet crew integrated in a squad of grunts is that it monopolizes the air resources to the needs of that one squad. On a full server, there will frequently be 5 squads. It's helpful for the commander to be able to request air support directly from a pilot when he sees a situation developing on the ground, such as a friendly squad on foot being overwhelmed by armored units.

**BigGaayAl** · 08-29-2006, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by powersmoker

Making a squad dedicated to helos and/or planes really gets in the way of teamplay.
Having one attack helo or plane in your groundsquad, and having it really stick to you should work out great.

Lol I suggested this many months ago, and the idea was severely frowned upon by most people in the thread.

I have had this work VERY well, it still is a good Idea.

It's one thing to hear "enemy spotted" and see the icon on your map.

It's entirely another thing to hear someone say over voip "Enemy on the 3rd floor behind the green barrel" or "The squadleader is hiding on top of that ridge".

I say try it out and show them it can work.

Originally Posted by Evo<^|SiNz|^>

Part of the problem with having a helo or jet crew integrated in a squad of grunts is that it monopolizes the air resources to the needs of that one squad. On a full server, there will frequently be 5 squads. It's helpful for the commander to be able to request air support directly from a pilot when he sees a situation developing on the ground, such as a friendly squad on foot being overwhelmed by armored units.

All the things you mention might just as well be done by communicating through the squadleader that controls the helicopter.

PS To everyone that talks about the commander giving orders to dedicated squads: how often do YOU take commander?

**Foxoq** · 08-30-2006, 12:00 AM

I kinda like dedicated helo squads when I'm commanding (once in a blue moon) because if a squad has a bomber/helo in it, they may not feel the need to go help other squads. Dedicated squads go where the need is, and it's also easier to keep track of which squad(s) has your air power. Also, when playing ukraine, it's easy to ask the attack helos to go pick up a squad and transport them somewhere.

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