Can we ditch the dedicated squad idea? - Page 3

**Apophis** · 08-30-2006, 08:25 AM

Reading everything in this thread leads me to the conclusion that the dedicated squads should NOT be removed. If anything, CO's should better utilize them and SL's should learn to communicate requests through the CO.

If a squad takes control of the air vehicles, another SL has no easy way to get air support when needed. They could contact the CO, the CO can try and find out which squad has the air vehicle needed at that point in time, and make the request. But it's far more efficient for a known squad to manage the air assets and have all requests go through the CO to the dedicated squad.

Evo<^|SiNz|^> · 08-30-2006, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigGaayAl

All the things you mention might just as well be done by communicating through the squadleader that controls the helicopter.

PS To everyone that talks about the commander giving orders to dedicated squads: how often do YOU take commander?

It's impossible for a single squad to have the ability to call an airstrike across thte map to assist another squad. So no, it's not possible for airpower to be as effective under the guidance of a squad leader as it is under a cmdr. As to your second point, if a commander isn't giving orders, that's a personel issue, not a policy issue. At that point an admin should be contacted to relieve the commander, and allow someone else to take over.

**Shiner** · 08-30-2006, 11:08 AM

The case for a dedicated squad should be based on evidence. Fact: When used in a scrim the dedicated air/chopper squads are supremely effective. The SL makes a request to the CO for air support (eg. Please send the air support to take out this tank (spotted) or Please have air support attack the enemy bomber that is just tearing us up at this flag.) The CO then must make the decision on what priorities, what assets (chopper vs jet vs bomber) to send and when.

What evolves is a superior model of asset utilization that a jet/chopper manned by a single squad can't manage.

The second element is that a squad @ 5-6 players is optimum for combined arms and self-sustainability. If this squad has two players in a chopper they WILL be a lot less powerful on the ground. The chopper is a powerful tool, but can't provide the sustained support that two extra kitted infantry can provide.

If the dedicated choppers aren't being used outside a scrim this effectively that isn't a recrimination of the dedicated chopper squad, but is instead a testament to the level of CO/SL commitment on the server.

I want to commend a Air squad leader last night on the POE2 server. Without Commander orders he was leading the two jets and the attack helo himself. After every re spawn/reload sequence he would look at the map, decide what flag/area needed air support and would direct our squad accordingly. This IS EXACTLY how an air squad should function in the absence of a CO. I wish I remembered his name (started with an L), but he deserves credit for playing the TG way.

BigGaayAl · 08-30-2006, 02:03 PM

Most arguments seem very dogmatic here. There are some instances where the in squad chopper CAN work very well, in other situations dedicated squads work better.

It doesn't take all that long for a CO to relay an order to a SL that has chopper with him.

Seems like most people think the chopper is still the tank it first was in BF2, not realizing it can no longer operate alone. Fly solo over an enemy base and youre history.

And please there is a CO like, less then 50 % of the time on the poe2 server, and when there is one, it's usually not even TG.

I suppose the dedicated squads might be far more effective in a scrim, the argument is imo quite irrelevant on a public server.

Keep in mind i'm only talking about a chopper. Can't see why I'd want a plane in a squad.

Ol'Smoke · 08-30-2006, 02:21 PM

Commanders giving helos orders is extremely rare. When was the last time you asked a commander for air support (and got it)?

Remember im not talking about effectiveness, but about teamplay, and integrating airforces into the team.

BaneII · 08-30-2006, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigGaayAl

Most arguments seem very dogmatic here. There are some instances where the in squad chopper CAN work very well, in other situations dedicated squads work better.

I concur. From the postings, few people have tried to experiment with this tactic. If you havent tried it, then you pretty much cant weigh the relative pros and cons. Every strategy and tactic has it strengths and weaknesses. There is no one size fits all.

Also of note last nite was when the attack helo piloted by BHack and Calvin wiped out the last four members of my squad last nite when we were trying to take a flag. Accidents like these occur because there is no direct communication between the squad and the pilot. Since you dont know what we are trying to do, your "assistance" can become a detriment. Support doesnt mean coordination. In real life, friendly fire like this happens because the pilot doesnt have the intel of the situation on the ground. It's the same in-game.

Calvin · 08-30-2006, 02:48 PM

I didn't do it.

>_>
<_<

*runs*

derdmeh · 08-30-2006, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvin

I didn't do it.

>_>
<_<

*runs*

lol!

Ol'Smoke · 08-30-2006, 04:12 PM

Well, i played an entire round defending two rear bases with a very well responding attack helo in the squad and man it was a blast!
Really, spotting everything, taking out tanks, taking out enemy helos.
Also i could tell him if i was in an AA and order him to fly over him if he got one on the tail.

So this is from experience, having them in the squad works!

Trooper · 08-30-2006, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powersmoker

Well, i played an entire round defending two rear bases with a very well responding attack helo in the squad and man it was a blast!
Really, spotting everything, taking out tanks, taking out enemy helos.
Also i could tell him if i was in an AA and order him to fly over him if he got one on the tail.

So this is from experience, having them in the squad works!

Im sure it works but what about the rest of the squads? Now they have no access to the Air support and could use it in the times you arent. I honestly dont see this idea or unwritten rule being changed anytime soon since its been proven to work like it is for over a year.

Ol'Smoke · 08-30-2006, 05:12 PM

In most maps you got 2 airplanes and 2 helo´s, if you got a total of five squads you got 4 having an air asset.
Also theres is nothing from other squads to take a helo, or to take turns. Youre by no means claming them.

**Apophis** · 08-30-2006, 05:20 PM

I think if a CO wants to manage an air support squad, that's the CO's decision. Additionally, if a SL wants to keep their squad with boots on the ground, that's their decision as well.

If a squad is trying to maintain organization and distribution of air support for their team, I don't see any advantage in interrupting that. I only see opportunity to enhance communication between the SL's to better utilize those assets.

BigGaayAl · 08-30-2006, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trooper[SNPR]

Im sure it works but what about the rest of the squads? Now they have no access to the Air support and could use it in the times you arent.

I feel that is simply untrue. If there is a commander he can request the air support pretty easily. If the SL is too busy for this (the SL that has the chopper), then he obviously needs the chopper as well.

Furthermore no chopper is just going to hang around, whenever the squad with the chopper has no contacts, any pilot will move up to assist other squads nearby.

I don't see the validity in the "what about the other squads" argument.

**Apophis** · 08-30-2006, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigGaayAl

I feel that is simply untrue. If there is a commander he can request the air support pretty easily. If the SL is too busy for this (the SL that has the chopper), then he obviously needs the chopper as well.

Furthermore no chopper is just going to hang around, whenever the squad with the chopper has no contacts, any pilot will move up to assist other squads nearby.

I don't see the validity in the "what about the other squads" argument.

So what's the problem with allowing the CO and SL to dictate how they want to utilize these assets on the battlefield? I'm not so sure that a player should have the right to dictate the formation and utilization of these types of squads, but I am sure that the CO should have that right and that the SL should also have the right to manage their squad.

I've also noticed that in some cases players that "need" the chopper really just "need" to be racking up kills as fast as possible vs. using the asset to support their TEAM.

BigGaayAl · 08-30-2006, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apophis

So what's the problem with allowing the CO and SL to dictate how they want to utilize these assets on the battlefield?

No problem at all, I think I and others here are just stating that other options can be valid as well, we're not saying that a dedicated squad is bad.
If a CO asks anything, the squad should comply. Thus if I'd have a chopper in squad, and commander asks me to make it a seperate squad, I'll do so immediatly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apophis

I've also noticed that in some cases players that "need" the chopper really just "need" to be racking up kills as fast as possible vs. using the asset to support their TEAM.

Those players need to be referred to the TG primer.