Can we ditch the dedicated squad idea?

Ol'Smoke · 08-29-2006, 08:29 AM

Making a squad dedicated to helos and/or planes really gets in the way of teamplay.
Having one attack helo or plane in your groundsquad, and having it really stick to you should work out great.

For instance when youre squad drives a row of tanks it would be extremely helpful to order your pilot to accompany you.

Right now with the dedicated squads the choppers and plays dont work toghether with the ground focrces at all.
This means that instead of being the blessing that they could be, they are merely a factor of irratation, randomly shooting the players on the ground.

The only way to make the air and ground work toghether at this moment is with the use of the commander and we all know that's too complicated and never used.

Pilots shoud join the good squads (led by TGers), with a maximum of one piot per squad, and let them know they are available and willing and aible to help the squad out. A good squadleader should be really pleased with that, and should know how to use this force to the fullest.

**FBmantis** · 08-29-2006, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powersmoker

The only way to make the air and ground work toghether at this moment is with the use of the commander and we all know that's too complicated and never used.

Uhhh...what? Granted I don't know how new you are to BF2@TG but commanders using helicopter squads to prioritize support for other squads as needed has almost been standard operating procedure on our servers for a long time. With dedicated squads the commander can talk directly to that helo pilot and give various clear orders that don't interfere with a full squads orders. Note though that I didn't say rule...if you want to fly a helo within another squad thats OK. Just realize that if a commander does step up and desires that helo team to form a dedicated squad...well you should then follow his advice/order. He will then use you to support not just one squad but all the squads on the team as needed.

**PanzerHans** · 08-29-2006, 08:42 AM

Hello powersmoker. Good to see you're back from Global-Conflict. The problem with having helos on your squad is that you tie up 2 members in the air. When I squadlead I'd rather relay a cry for help to the commander(as you suggest) where he directs the helo squad for support on your objective. Also being a dedicated helo squad means you can coordinate your attack with another choppercrew.

Reminecense: I remember playing on a map with you all the way back in november 2005. I had a great time playing under you!

Faultline · 08-29-2006, 08:45 AM

Commanders should try to do their best to prioritize where the chopper squad needs to be. Otherwise, I think the pilot or squadleader of the chopper crew should be actively looking at the map and finding where troops are attacking or defending and go support them. The dedicated chopper squad works well when they're viewing themselves as a support function in the game and try their best to fill that role.

Ol'Smoke · 08-29-2006, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBmantis

commanders using helicopter squads to prioritize support for other squads as needed has almost been standard operating procedure on our servers for a long time.

I dont agree. Co's giving helicopters orders is rare. Those orders actually benefitting a ground squad in a way that is noticable is even rarer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faultline

The dedicated chopper squad works well when they're viewing themselves as a support function in the game and try their best to fill that role.

I think right now, even apart from the dedicated squad idea, choppers and planes dont work together with the groundforces well. It should be noticable if your a ground troop that you got a lethel fource helping you out. Have you ever been cornered by a tank when you havent got any armor in your tank, asked for a helo and saw it take out the tank immediately? Have you ever driven to a enemy base, asked for a plane to bomb the hell out of it, and then immediately moved in for an easy capture. You have to agree those things should happen more often.

Bodofooko · 08-29-2006, 09:39 AM

Well, if thats not really fair to the other ground squads if only one squad gets to benefit from the helo. Also, inevitably the primary function of the helo turns into anti-helo. Your helo isn't going to be much help to you when its getting tied up with the enemy helo pestering it, so basically all you've done by having the helo in your squad is remove two troops from the ground. I'm pretty sure much of this holds true for having jets in your squad too.

BaneII · 08-29-2006, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBmantis

Note though that I didn't say rule...if you want to fly a helo within another squad thats OK. Just realize that if a commander does step up and desires that helo team to form a dedicated squad...well you should then follow his advice/order. He will then use you to support not just one squad but all the squads on the team as needed.

Even though I'm well aware of this, I've seen multiple times on playing POE2 since Saturday when someone will say for a pilot to join a helo or jet squad. There are still some folks that seem to think that there is some rule here at TG to only fly in jet or helo squads.

Anyway, Powersmoker makes a good point. I've used the tactic of having a bomber available in the squad. When we needed to clear a flag, we would spot the armor and give the position of the target relative to the flag (SW, N, etc). Our job was to keep the AA down while the bomber would take care of the rest. It works a lot better than waiting for the CO, who doesnt always reply if you request air support and has limited intel compared to the squad leader. Direct communication is more effective than trying to go through a middle man. Of course you might not have access to someone like Snail or Viper who is willing to provide close air support to their squad.

But close air support is not something that is normally practiced at TG. Air support, yes. Close, no. It's a viable tactic that is underused. People get so used to doing things a certain way that it gets to be habit. Try something new.

BHack · 08-29-2006, 09:56 AM

Dedicated squads are a very good idea. I see what you are trying to achieve, but there just isn't enough normal day to day teamwork and planning to get this in a non-scrim environment.

**AzrealDarkmoon** · 08-29-2006, 10:06 AM

As someone who used to CO alot I always wanted dedicated squads for air assets. Because that squad focused on one thing. If I needed air support at another location with general squads I would have to tell the SL who in the middle of the firefight would have to relay it to his pilot. If the SL is already in the air he can just bank and go to the point while talking to his squadmembers on what to expect.

Granted there has never been a problem with a squad taking a CP and grabbing the air asset and using it.

Az

BHack · 08-29-2006, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaneII

Even though I'm well aware of this, I've seen multiple times on playing POE2 since Saturday when someone will say for a pilot to join a helo or jet squad. There are still some folks that seem to think that there is some rule here at TG to only fly in jet or helo squads.

Anyway, Powersmoker makes a good point. I've used the tactic of having a bomber available in the squad. When we needed to clear a flag, we would spot the armor and give the position of the target relative to the flag (SW, N, etc). Our job was to keep the AA down while the bomber would take care of the rest. It works a lot better than waiting for the CO, who doesnt always reply if you request air support and has limited intel compared to the squad leader. Direct communication is more effective than trying to go through a middle man. Of course you might not have access to someone like Snail or Viper who is willing to provide close air support to their squad.

But close air support is not something that is normally practiced at TG. Air support, yes. Close, no. It's a viable tactic that is underused. People get so used to doing things a certain way that it gets to be habit. Try something new.

It's not a rule but I personally wish it was.

The game always benefits from a commander. Reasons like these and many others. The problem is, its not a really fun thing to do unless you are into strategery (making up words) more than playing the First person shooter. People like Bommando stepping up and getting squads to use Bleed and defense to their advantage are what, ultimately, win rounds.

I always only fly in a dedicated squad. Lacking a commander who directs my attacks, this is how I, as a pilot, decide how to use my chopper/jet:

When I'm on the ground, USUALLY I'll spot a tank or enemy helo when I have no means of killing it. Or if I just want help killing it. Otherwise, I'm too busy lining up a rocket shot. I sort of assume everyone does the same thing.

As soon as I get up in the air I look to see where the squads are attacking (or being attacked), instead of just flying towards the enemy CP's and randomly killing things, I attempt to actively help a squad on the ground achieve it's objective. If I see one of the squads spotting a bunch of armor - as a pilot, this translates into "HELP!". Thats where I go. I'll clear the armor then circle around the flag while my gunner cleans up and wait for them to cap the flag or finish clearing the attackers. Then I fly away and repeat.

Rick_the_new_guy · 08-29-2006, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bodofooko

Well, if thats not really fair to the other ground squads if only one squad gets to benefit from the helo. Also, inevitably the primary function of the helo turns into anti-helo. Your helo isn't going to be much help to you when its getting tied up with the enemy helo pestering it, so basically all you've done by having the helo in your squad is remove two troops from the ground. I'm pretty sure much of this holds true for having jets in your squad too.

What mantis said and the quote above explains it well.

if a grunt squad has a jet or chopper there are radio issues. when YOur attack hello guys are talking to each other about the gunship they are engaging, you are trying to talk to your grunts on the ground about the infantry u are engaging, all of these radio transmissions reduce your ability to know who is talking about what and were; and u can't make out what everyone is saying.

Granted there are many times when a CO is not around to coordinate things, but the piolots watch the hud and do their best. And also granted, many SL fail to annouce contact and when they need air support, so that makes the pilots look bad when a flag swithces and know one told the CO who would give them an attack vector.

The biggest point to disagree with u would be Bodo's, other squads would miss out on the support if asquad was focusing it on themselves.

With PoE being new and all, it would be a good idea for the CO and SL to announce to their team to make sure we have grunt/ air/ chopper squads so that new players to the server are not confused.

Ol'Smoke · 08-29-2006, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaneII

I've used the tactic of having a bomber available in the squad. When we needed to clear a flag, we would spot the armor and give the position of the target relative to the flag (SW, N, etc). Our job was to keep the AA down while the bomber would take care of the rest.

Now that is teamwork!

**Iamthefallen** · 08-29-2006, 10:18 AM

Some maps having a helo with the ground squad works great (Zatar wetlands), but in most cases I've seen the chopper runs out of targets around his squad fairly quickly.

Once that happens, the chopper ends up playing defense and being largely unused, or he moves elsewhere and effectively leaves the squad.

If you're on defense, and you're sending the chopper to another base to help out another squad, the only thing you've bought is a direct line to the chopper pilot at the cost of two infantry men. The rest of your team has now also lost the ability to communicate effectively with the chopper. The cost outweighs the benefits IMHO.

The only time I can see this working is if you're running a dedicated attack squad. It could very well be a good thing to have 4 guys in armor and an attack chopper for aerial view. Let the armor move on the flag and have the chopper focus on defending the armor from ATs.

Ol'Smoke · 08-29-2006, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bodofooko

Well, if thats not really fair to the other ground squads if only one squad gets to benefit from the helo.

1) I can count the number of times I have been helped by an airsquad and it was noticable (as in working toghether) on one squad. In other words other squads dont benefit from helo's anyway.
2)Generally there are enough airplanes and choppers to give each (full) squad at least one.

Ol'Smoke · 08-29-2006, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iamthefallen

Some maps having a helo with the ground squad works great (Zatar wetlands), but in most cases I've seen the chopper runs out of targets around his squad fairly quickly.

When you are, say, defending and you dont need the helo, you can just order it to engage at will. As long as it makes sure it is available when those tanks come rolling in or when that chopper starts being pesky.

Besides even if it makes a chopper somewhat less busy, the increased amount of teamplay will more than compensate for that.

When is a chopper more effective?
When gets fifty kills randomly over the map?
Or when gets 10 kills and with every kill defends a flag or keeps a teammate alive?