Re: Removing Crosshairs

**Tempus** · 08-31-2006, 11:57 AM

Talk to Asch and go hunt down Duke.

**Lekdevil.NL** · 08-31-2006, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Strag

If you read the thread over on the PoE forums, you'll note that I said "if players fire 'from the hip' (without using their iron sights), they'll shoot without any sort of accuracy." So with the change I have in mind, drawing a crosshair on the screen, or "memorizing" where a crosshair would be, would not compensate for their removal. Firing without using iron sights would be no more than spray & pray (as it should be, IMO).

Hmmm... But firing from the hip whilst moving around already *hasn't* any sort of accuracy. Just shoot a clip of bullets at a fixed point on a wall when moving and then observe the spread.

The only situation where you've got any accuracy like this is when stationary. But, in that case, it only takes all of 0.2 seconds to switch to iron sights. Thus, I don't see how removing the on-screen crosshairs would slow things down. Maybe I'm missing something here...

**Strag** · 08-31-2006, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Tempus

Talk to Asch and go hunt down Duke.

Remember the movie Airplane!, where there's a montage of newscasters reporting the story of the troubled plane? There's one guy who's beating on a chunk of wood with sticks; I imagine that's the only way to get a hold of Duke right now.

**Bubba** · 08-31-2006, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Tempus

Talk to Asch and go hunt down Duke.

Ha Ha, nice one.

In CoD2 we have removed all crosshairs and such and it works very wll, but in my humble opinion PoE2 should be played as is so that we do not lose our player base for one. A Tac Mod version would probable work good for the die hards.

**Strag** · 08-31-2006, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Lekdevil.NL

The only situation where you've got any accuracy like this is when stationary. But, in that case, it only takes all of 0.2 seconds to switch to iron sights. Thus, I don't see how removing the on-screen crosshairs would slow things down. Maybe I'm missing something here...

IMO, it's not the 0.2 second transition to iron sights that slows things down so much as it is the loss of peripheral vision. When I go to iron sights and engage a target, I lose awareness of some of the things going on around me. This in turn forces me to rely more on my teammates to cover my blind angles, and vice versa. So, either my squad and I slow down and cover one another during fire & movement, or we risk being hit from a blind side.

What I'd like to see is a system where a player must stop, crouch or go prone, and bring up his iron sights (or collimator sight, as the case may be) before being able to engage a target with any sort of accuracy. Not everyone would enjoy this, and that's why it would be great to see it in something like a PoE:2 Tac Mod.

**Grunt 70** · 08-31-2006, 01:19 PM

I find I can't hit anything shooting from the hip and only do so when ambushed or surprised coming around a corner. Any kind of shot where I have time to aim I always use Iron sights. But -Ric's got a good point about keeping new faces here...I dunno...but how much pandering do we want to do to keep em here?? good questions all.

**Nikolas** · 08-31-2006, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by Strag

What I'd like to see is a system where a player must stop, crouch or go prone, and bring up his iron sights (or collimator sight, as the case may be) before being able to engage a target with any sort of accuracy.

I think you'd like GRAW.

**Strag** · 08-31-2006, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by xTYBALTx

I think you'd like GRAW.

I do, but it's been stagnating on my hard drive. Hopefully now, with the dedicated server and proper coop, we can enjoy GRAW at TG like we do GR.

**Strag** · 08-31-2006, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by Bommando

....I don't cruise chicks in my Sedan

Seeing as how that might put off Tom, I can understand that.

Regarding BF2 and GRAW being different types of games out of the box, I would certainly agree. However, modding games to behave differently has given gamers some of our best gameplay experiences. For example, I don't think Half-Life deathmatch was meant by the developers to evolve into Counter-Strike or Natural Selection, but many a gamer is glad that modders took the initiative to try something different. I think modding games to behave differently from how they're originally intended is a Good Thing, and I imagine many folks who play Tac Mod or Call of Duty 2 here would agree.

So if there's a "market" for a PoE:2 version of Tac Mod, why not make it?

**gunjunkie** · 08-31-2006, 04:04 PM

This would be a lot easier to deal with if the iron sights in POE2 didn't suck so much. I think one of the reasons it works so well in COD2 is because of the iron sight implementation.

**Strag** · 08-31-2006, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Bommando

I endorse any attempts to mod a game to suit a certain type of gameplay and like to see all sorts of different game modes evolve. I guess what I'm saying is that modding is one thing, while trying to push global changes onto a very wide community of players is another. So, the point being that while I endorse the development of mods to encourage certain types of play, I am vehemently against pushing hotly contested changes onto a public-facing high-volume server unless the support for them is unanimous.

Sorry if I seem like I'm getting too deep into this, but you may be able to tell that I've had extensive discussions about this in the past

Believe me, I don't want to hose up a good thing. PoE:2 is going strongly at TG, and hopefully we'll see plenty of new faces join the SM ranks because of it. I imagine this is the argument/discussion you've had before (messing with the popularity of a server by altering the gameplay it hosts), and I agree with you.

I'd like to see sim/realism changes go into a separate mod (like a PoE:2 version of Tac Mod) that players could enjoy on certain nights, if they wanted to, much like Tac Mod is handled now. I would assume this would be done on a server separate from the main TG PoE:2 server, so that the games on the main server would not be affected. Then, once folks made their way into TG via the public-facing servers, they could have an opportunity to see the other options we have to offer.

**thebleakaffinity** · 08-31-2006, 05:21 PM

The problem is, as Bommando pointed out, the technology isn't good enough to promote the level of simulation that removing crosshairs is trying to accomplish. Using a fixed, two dimensional display to approximate things like three dimensional space and motion has its limitations, and crosshairs are one of the many ways that the developers try and make the game more enjoyable and intuitive.

Basically, what I'm saying is, join the military if you want intense, immersive action without visual aids like the HUD and crosshairs, and leave the videogames to those of us that just like to relax and shoot some stuff in a hassle free manner

**IRS_Agent** · 08-31-2006, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by Bommando

I personally think they actually add realism. In real life, you have a much better field of view and can better triangulate position and length. This is not so on-screen. Take them out and people can just draw them on their screens with a non-permanent marker. I don't see what it achieves if we make the change globally.

That is exactly how I feel about crosshairs, they are there to balance out the fact that in real life you have a better sense of where your bullets are going, even w/o crosshairs.

**icky** · 08-31-2006, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by IRS_Agent

That is exactly how I feel about crosshairs, they are there to balance out the fact that in real life you have a better sense of where your bullets are going, even w/o crosshairs.

I have no experience with firing real rifles, but my game experience tells me that the right way is to hold them under your arm and point your body at the target. If possible, you should do this while doing a diving roll in the air. The last thing I would want in real life is to worry about crosshairs while I am coordinating all of these things.

**asch** · 08-31-2006, 09:05 PM

Here at TG we strive for putting simulation in games that aren't necessarily sim games. This is one of the major things that separates TG from the rest of the world. We're not trying to satisfy the popular demand, rather the simulation players demand. So while BFx isn't a simulation game, we should be doing what we can to play it that way.

Both Strag and Bommando bring up pros / cons of not having crosshairs. Both have valid arguments for keeping or taking them away. Traditionally, we have sided towards removing them because the pros of removing them have outweighed the pros of keeping them.

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