PoE2 Concerns

**Evo<^|SiNz|^>** · 09-07-2006, 12:34 PM

Since I've had the chance this week to log some significant time on the TG server, I thought I'd make a couple of observations and maybe start some discussion on some new issues this game brings to the table.

1. One Man Squads

The past two afternoons I've played I've been extremely frustrated at how many lone wolf squads there are. Our team was getting crunched on one map because the team was spread buckshot around the map. I was pleading over team chat for people to consolidate.

I know this is discouraged at TG. I'm wondering if there's a way to deal with this technically or just by admins warning and banning people who form one man squads? I'm not sure how agressive this is enforced, but the past two days have been pretty frustrating. I don't think this is something worth tracking down Apophis in TS to deal with during a game, but I do think it's something that could be enforced a bit more.

BTW, it is mostly random pubbers who come in and to this, not community members.

2. Arty Ethics

This is more of a question than anything. As a disclaimer to this, I'll just say no one likes getting their butt kicked. And yes, I did get stomped by arty, but I hope you can view this as more than just "sour grapes".

We were playing a round where my squad (playing as UKR) advanced secured the flag closest to the German uncappable main base. An artillery unit rolled onto the road above the control point and continually shot us as we respawned. There was no other effort by the German team to take the flag. Simply an artillery unit spamming into the CP.

I know that in itself would be considered a bit unethical by the TG purists, and yes it did suck to be on the receiving end of that. We eventually decided to give up on the control point because it was impossible to hide from the onslaught. But this brings up a broader question:

What are the ethics surrounding use of artillery? Is it OK to use the artillery unit as a tank, basically rolling it in and firing zero-degree shots into buildings and CP's? Or is this something we shouldn't set rules on?

I personally feel like that is a departure from the "intended role" of mobile artillery, and would be disappointed to see this sort of thing tolerated on the server. It'd be nice to have a clear policy on this.

Thanks for your feedback!

**Nikolas** · 09-07-2006, 12:57 PM

Regarding the artillery; there's a reason it has weak armor - to balance out it's devestating firepower. Personally, I'd much much MUCH rather have a mobile artillery piece firing at me with direct line of sight, where I can return fire, than from 600 meters away, where I have no hope of getting it back.

One man squads occur anytime we get new people on the server. Whenever I am squad leading and have open spots in my squad, I invite members of smaller squads in every time I am waiting to respawn or there is a lull in the action. It works surprisingly well.

And for the record, one man squads are discouraged and count technically as not being a mature gamer and not following orders, but as I noted above it's far better to talk to the person and get him/her on the program.

**Evo<^|SiNz|^>** · 09-07-2006, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by xTYBALTx

Regarding the artillery; there's a reason it has weak armor - to balance out it's devestating firepower. Personally, I'd much much MUCH rather have a mobile artillery piece firing at me with direct line of sight, where I can return fire, than from 600 meters away, where I have no hope of getting it back.

ExplodingSilver and I tried numerous times to fire on it, but it was nearly impossible. We tried going spec ops to C4 it, but again, it was impossible.

I'd just like to see a bit more teamwork used, it's why I enjoy playing on the TG servers. If the arty is used properly, it requires more teamwork for both sides.

but as I noted above it's far better to talk to the person and get him/her on the program.

Roger. And trust me, as a CS:S server op I hate babysitting the server. It is not fun, and I don't want to burden TG admins with that. I think some of the frustration for me comes from joining many of those one or two man squads, doing a radio check, then hearing nothing. Then asking them to join me in Delta squad. No response. Hailing them again, and no response again. Bleh.

**asch** · 09-07-2006, 01:13 PM

If there is a CO requesting that the one-man squads form up larger squads and they don't listen, then contact an admin and inform them that the SLs are not following orders. That is the best way to deal with one-man squads.

**Iamthefallen** · 09-07-2006, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Evo<^|SiNz|^>

We were playing a round where my squad (playing as UKR) advanced secured the flag closest to the German uncappable main base. An artillery unit rolled onto the road above the control point and continually shot us as we respawned. There was no other effort by the German team to take the flag. Simply an artillery unit spamming into the CP.

I'm not sure if you're referring to my using it similarly or not yesterday, but it at least sounds familiar enough that I want to address it.

I was part of Sassy's squad and we made repeated attempts to take over the flag held next to our UCB. We brought up several types or armored vehicles, and I grabbed the mobile arty and came in behind two tanks, while an APC was behind me. I mention this to make it clear that the mobile arty was part of this larger group, and not just brought up to spawn camp. I parked the mobile arty on a downslope facing the base to provide suppressing fire while one of our tanks was engaging the flag. Our tank was quickly taken out by an enemy tank, and I began firing on the base.

We did attempt to take the flag as some members went around to attack from another direction, and we had members of other squads in the near vicinity of the flag as well. Again, this was not just spawn-camping, and all in all, I ended the map with something like 12 kills if I remember correctly. This was near the end of the map and I don't remember if we actually capped it or not.

I'm not arguing whether or not using the arty at 0 degrees for targets within visual range is a kosher tactic. That's for the powers that be to decide.
I just wanted to give my view on the actual situation.

But if I were pushed hard....I'd say that using the artillery as a tank on steroids is lame and should be frowned upon. Using it as an artillery piece to provide suppressing fire and engaging legal targets, regardless of the angle of the shot, is not.

**Evo<^|SiNz|^>** · 09-07-2006, 01:47 PM

^^No, that wasn't you. The situation I was in was just a single artillery unit, no other German units in sight; infantry, air, or otherwise.

**WhiskeySix** · 09-07-2006, 01:51 PM

hehe - Fallen, I think you're the arty piece I tookout last night! I was targeting the ("rail-yard"?) CP just to the west of that and Mantis said something about an arty on a hill that was totally destroying a CP and gave me a spot there... sound right?

**Iamthefallen** · 09-07-2006, 02:28 PM

Nope, I did play arty some, but that map I couldn't hit crap, so it must've been someone else :-)

**Rick_the_new_guy** · 09-07-2006, 02:41 PM

good thread.

Do due to fact that the server is full, mobile arty should be used at all times.

If it were 15 vs 15 it should not be used. Just like when we play vanillia with low populations we do not use arty. U dig?

As much as I hate to say it, a mobile arty that is raping your CB is fair game.

If the mobile arty has your spawn point dialled in, it is pointless to believe they will let up. At this point, they are possed by Aires the god of war and will stop at nothing.
Hear is what they are saying. "Stubid noob, I got u now!! Die!!! I'll kill all of YOU!!!! Eat melted *&#$ and die!!!! followed by demonic laughter.
"YOu fool, u can't win, I got you dialed in!!!! Yess!! keep spawning, I have plenty of rounds and a supply crate!!!! Follwed by more demonic laughter.

Hear are some tips for avoiding arty and handling the situation like the Wolf on Pulp Fiction.

Report this up the Chain of command A.S.A.P. with a loud and madd as hell voice; that will get their attention.

When under a mobile arty and indeed other tanks and APC attack, Try to spawn in on your squad leader. Meaning, if they can spawn in and make it to a safe spot behind cover, spawn on them and stay low and let the bastards come closer. O they will, for again they are possed by Aires.

When setting up defense, look in the direction the mobile arty will be coming from. The mobile arty does arch their rounds in but they can not drop them directly on you. At a ~50 degree incline the Arty cannot hit every square meter of the CB. If the enemy UCB is west of the flag. Try to postiont your guys behind and to the east of buildings so the buildings take the rounds not you. This way when the arty starts hitting the kills will be very little.

As a SL, break Lt. Dan and say : Shut up and Get Down!!!
avoiding the arty rounds is quite realistic.

As xTybaltx said, leave the inner perimieter so the arty does not get u. The enemy does not have UAV to see were your at.

COs besides maintaing bleed one of your most important tasks is to make sure the enemy arty is always down. Cause the kills they get on that thing are nasty and brings down moral.
Assuming a SL reports casulities and a general direction it is coming from, zoom in and find that thing and give your fast movers attack coordiantes and let them take care of the problem.

Sniper/recon squad: One of your biggest prioerties is to find that enemy arty and let the CO know and he/she hill handle the rest.

Lastly, if all else fails, leave the CB. If your squad can't spawn and live for more than one second. Time to go someplace elsewere. It is that simple. You just can't keep taking those casulalties.

P.S. if your teams attack helo squad sucks, the tema will have a ruff game.

**Grunt 70** · 09-07-2006, 03:55 PM

I don't know how it will play out on the TG server but as far as real life tactics are concerned....Look back to WWII...One of the most effective weapons of the war was the German 88. Orginally intended as a medium range arty piece it soon found favor as an anti armor weapon. Those 88's firing at a zero degree elevation was quite common and murderously effective.

From my point of view the tactic is valid--some other poster said it already..they are slow and vulnerable...all it takes is the right tactic to counter it...say a Spec ops jumping in a fast mover and blowing c4 faster than they can react...

**BHack** · 09-07-2006, 03:57 PM

I think it's fine. The turret moves very slowly on the arty. It has no coaxial. It shouldn't be that hard to kill if you can survive the spawn.

**Iamthefallen** · 09-07-2006, 04:27 PM

Keep in mind there were really two issues raised:

Using arty as a weapon for visible targets, aka 0 degree shots.

Using 0-degree arty on an enemy flag without attempting to take the flag.

As for the first, I think it's an OK and fair use. The arty is weak and slow enough that it doesn't pose that great a threat to other vehicles.

As for the second, some common sense has to be used by the arty crew. Artillery along with a few engineers could absolutely destroy a CP without the defenders having much chance in taking them out. The defenders can't disperse and take cover if the arty has a visual on them.

That situation I tend to think should be treated the same as an attack chopper hovering over an enemy CP repeatedly taking out defenders without moving on the flag.

**Czolgosz** · 09-07-2006, 06:38 PM

The first time I found arty I just thought it was a bada$$ tank w/ a big gun and slow turret. I realized after reading the boards here that I was in the mobile arty. lol

I zero degree killed a tank in one shot and lmfao when I did...'course I didn't realize what I was in at the time.

Guess I look at spawn killing, base raping, zero-degree-arty as an opportunity to apply tactics. If you're on a team where people are working together it's not difficult to get out of the aforementioned situations. Of course if the team is disfunctional it can be quite frustrating...but that would be the case against a decent team applying accepted tactics regardless.

How different would it be if a couple organized squads were capping your flag and killing every spawn immediately because they're just that organized? Same frustration level, but sometimes you have to give a little to apply tactics and hit 'em where they're weak or not looking. This is what brings a fun and success element to the game.

Nothing better than that big a$$ grin on your face when you kick the crap out of another organized squad or two by giving them a little piece of cake from your left hand and sticking a nailgun to their throat w/ your right hand.

Be opportunistic.

Cz

**WhiskeySix** · 09-07-2006, 06:54 PM

i think if the gunner were doing the same thing (constant barage of the CP) with a purpose other than just racking up kills, it would have been a different story. The problem is that there wasn't any one else there trying to cap the CP.... it was basically spawn camping since the people IN the CP had no defense for it.

**Czolgosz** · 09-07-2006, 06:54 PM

Oh and regarding one man sqauds. I think there's a couple solutions...or rather ways to minimize the problem.

1) Password only server...whereby the pub player must come by the boards and at least read/accept a couple simple server rules and get a password to the server. Have the password change every week and force people to login and read/accept the basic credo.

What a pita that would be. But it would definately act as a filter for the uninitiated.

2) Full time server admins who speak w/, warn, then kick offenders. You'll probably need lots of peeps to fill this role or perhaps have set hours during the day where an admin will be on (24/7 would just be too rigorous to schedule). Say from noon-midnight everyday there will be a server admin on to enforce the credo.

Babysitting sux...but w/ pub players come pub mentalities. Its a numbers and balance game. Filter the best you can w/o making the entire thing such a pita that nobody wants to play or admin here.

I lonewolfed/SL'd not by choice a few times already. When SL'ing I play w/ the sniper kit. I give orders to myself (attack, defend, etc.), stay back from the flags (to provide a mobile spawn point), and call in arty (if its available). The only thing I don't do is spend anytime recruiting...so I wait...and wait...and wait for peeps to join my squad. Sometimes a couple will jump in, othertimes I'm playing w/ myself (:-D) for a long long time.

I don't feel established/confident enough w/ my SL'ing abilities to recruit. Perhaps after a few more hours w/ SL under my belt.

3) Just thought of something else. Might be a little ghey though. Designate certain regs to be SL's and have them put a tag next to their name (example: [TGSL]). The reason I mention this is cuz when I SL as sniper and people don't know me I'm sure they immediately so nfw am I joining that squad. lol

Just throwin my .02 out there. There's gotta be some sort of solution that provides a balance between good team playing and not scaring off regs by making this seem like a job.

Cz

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