Re: Is x too powerful?

**Apophis** · 09-08-2006, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by BHack

I couldn't agree more with this post.

I have been vocal (as I'm sure you've read) about attempting to counter a tactic before calling it cheap. I was a little too zealous in some of the other threads though and came off too strong in text.

I guess the over-riding theme is that your frustration level in game is highly dependent on the coordination and ability of your teammates. Noone manning the AA? Your going to get bombed straight to pissed-off-ville. I really think these situations catalyze more 'over-powered' discussions than warranted.

I made this post BECAUSE of what you've been posting. I understand where you're coming from and wanted to make a topic that specifically addressed these claims of "balance" as the problem.

A lot of players simply say "I want to drive a tank!" and then get annoyed because their team is not configured in a manner that can protect that particular asset. They may lack manned AA and may not even be involved in the air supremacy battle. As you said, that guy is going to get bomed straight to pissed-off-ville without putting a moments thought into how appropriate it is for him to be getting in that vehicle.

The same mentality applies to players that INSIST on spawning on a base that's being bombarded with artillery. I used to see this all the time in Desert Combat. Someone has an MLRS tuned in on a flag and is raining down hell all over the place. Yet the same players spawn over and over, dying and respawning, and then have the gall to tell the player using the MLRS that he's being cheap. Meanwhile, another flag sits 500 yards away that provides not only a secure place to spawn, but vehicles and assets that can be used to hunt down and eliminate the MLRS threat.

**Apophis** · 09-08-2006, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by ABRA

I agree that labrythine rules(re: what was a valid UCB attack in vanilla) were less than optimal. I guess my question is do you consider these tactics to be in accordance with your points 2 and 3. Is this close enough to a real world, no game based tactic to be considered tolerable? Is it far enough from a manipulation of the game mechanics to not be considered unduly exploitative?

Well. To tell you the truth, I have been in the mobile AA in BF2 Vanilla and been part of an assault team on a flag, stationed a little way from the flag up on a hill, protecting my squad against bombers and attack helos. I have used said AA as an anti-infantry weapon while my squad was moving in to the flag. Because of my inclined position I was able to get the guns down to that level. Did I feel bad? Not at all. I was in a primary position that was ideal for taking out aircraft and it was convenient enough to allow me to also provide support to my ground troops. Would I have moved up there and deliberately targeted the defensive troops at the base if I wasn't part of an assault squad? Absolutely not. As a side note; I recieved my first distinguished armor ribbon after that match.

As far as the zero degree artillery, I think the same would apply. But on the flip side, I think it's tactically idiotic to bring mobile artillery into a hostile zone. Artillery is meant for long-range support, not clearing streets at 15 yards.

I'm not sure if this is what you're asking, but what are "these tactics" that you're asking about? Did I get it right?

**ThePenguineer** · 09-08-2006, 04:55 PM

Power(X) < Power(Apophis)

**Wyzcrak** · 09-08-2006, 05:01 PM

I'm not sure what you're looking for in this thread, Apophis. It almost seems like the title should be a statement, not a question.

"That's too hard to counter" is embarrassing when teamwork, which requires much more strength and focus than giving up, is typically a ready solution for anyone able to see it for himself.

Love this thread. So many claims of "overpowered" are, plainly, showcased as ridiculous by seasoned teamwork, which is why they're just that much more disgusting to witness from otherwise-competent members of a community so steeped in coordinated tactics.

Yeah, there's black and white. But, when it comes to gray, all it takes is my personally witnessing a "lame" tactic being legitimately countered for me to add it to my personal tactical arsenal. It's nothing personal when I ignore your* post-death bitching.

* generic, though I'm not above ignoring Apophis if he ever takes that posture haha

**ABRA** · 09-08-2006, 05:05 PM

Yeah you got it right. I guess, while I have your ear to complete this discussion, what then with the players who don't share your aversion to CP assualts when not part of the assualting squad. You say absolutely not, but many players seem to be getting away with saying absolutely. Perhaps, defenders are not in the best position to judge how engaged they are in their squad's plan(although my suspcision from playing on the PoE server is they are in a squad without a waypoint and a mute SL, and thus no plan, and a long leash to engage in any tactics without breaking non-existent orders).

This is a tough question because how do we get SLs to lead? This is the essential frustration that I think leads to these threads. What to do when one team is opperating in a very fluid deathmatch orderless environment with non-TG SLs using powerful weapon systems suited to the purpose. If you are a TG player uninterested in engaging in that style of play, but seeming to need to do it to pursue survival let alone victory, what then? Where does TG leadership and teamwork enter in when the tactic du jour and order of the day is "spawn where ever there is a vehicle and race here"? It's disorganized but effective in this game it seems. Those TGers forming proper armor columns seem like prosaic WW1 infantry sergents forming proper battle lines to march into machineguns and artillery. Are we abandoning these real tactics because this game seems to render them less effective than deathmatch fluidity? Personally I think they can be adapted to a hybrid of the two but I have been time and again discouraged from the discourse on the forums and CO order form forming nimble small squads.

**ABRA** · 09-08-2006, 05:13 PM

Re: Wyzcrak. I agree that teamwork can counter this fast-paced lone gunman in a powerful weapon system behavior. But I believe teamwork as encourgaged and sometimmes enforced traditionally in BF2 is too slow when the server in inundated with unseasoned non-TGers and the message on the forum is recruit and include the non-seasoned and don't form strong TG heavy squads.

If we could be allowed to use small locked squads, I believe TGers could work with non-TGs in the way you say. Maybe I suck, but I personally find it unreasistic to say across the board, teamwork and tactics can overcome all this when you stop to look at the reality of the PoE server. If we are going to spread the TG around and recruit as the forums are encouraging, I think that level of teamplay, when its one TGer and 5 micless non-TGers is simply an unrealistic goal.

Of course none of this is a problem when you're in a squad all on mics with all TGers often from the same TG outfit. But that is both apparantly discouraged and rare on the PoE server these days in my view.

**Exploding_Silver** · 09-08-2006, 05:14 PM

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Robocop is too powerful

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**tHa_KhAn** · 09-08-2006, 05:22 PM

The only thing in my opinion that can be too powerful, is the commander as arty. I tried this method out until I became proficient at it. At first I just would cover my troops, kill the opposing arty, clear the flags as they were taken. Then I decided next map to be offensive and I was able to keep the attack helo grounded, the arty grounded, and most of the armor. I look back and wonder what hte sport was, but it was good fun to see the helo whore whine and complain about it as I would purposely wait to fire until they hopped in and just as they started to lift off BOOM!. Same with the opposing arty, I was much faster at adjusting so the first time I heard an explosion near me I would track the next round back and destroy them before they could get me. So a combination of a fast loading PC, skill, and a soon to be outlawed method is overpowering at the moment. The only reason I mention it is the real reason I started was so my team could use a blitzkreig kind of attack and cap the far flags and they did. The enemy never got a flag. As you know these rounds are pretty long to go without ever getting a flag.

Once everyone becomes familiar with the locations of the pickup kits, I think alot of the uber vehicles will seem less. The Handheld AA is great for air craft. The pickup heavy RPG is great for other armor and grass is good to hide in. Teamwork will always be key to this game. Sometimes the best players get wrapped up in doing what they are best at instead of doing something they are good at and can make the team overall better. IE. the best guy with the bomber/attack plane may be better than anyone else in the fighter and it is more important to have air superiority than a high frag rate.

**icky** · 09-08-2006, 05:42 PM

x is definitely too powerful, and I would like to see it removed from the game.

**Evo<^|SiNz|^>** · 09-08-2006, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Apophis

I would agree, that is a problem. But it's not a problem that should be addressed by removing assets from a game if the problem is purely teamwork/organization based.

In Vanilla BF2 the problem with some air assets is the lack of an appropriate and effective countermeasure. IE: Trying to take down the jets with the emplaced AA missiles.

It seems that PoE has added an appropriate countermeasure to the attack helos and jets: mobile AA cannon.

Couldn't agree more.

**Nikolas** · 09-08-2006, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by ABRA

My poinit while wordily delivered is essentially this:

The use of AA and arty in this way, while not in and of itself a wholly unrealistic, uncounterable tactic, excludes its use in tactics closer resembling the realism I think/thought we were seeking. While more effective to pointblank a spawn with arty and possibly what it takes to win, is it gameplay in a near simualtion environment?

I literally could not disagree more.

Using AA against infantry does not in any way preclude its use against air power. Example: I am driving the AA gun as part of an armor column which is assaulting a flag. I am in the back, where AA should be. The armor column gets wiped out, as happens very frequently while assaulting a flag, and I am left all alone in my AA vehicle. What now? Well, I can still see little people running around near the CP, so I shoot at them while waiting for my squad's armor column to respawn at a nearby CP and make a second attempt on the flag. I see an enemy helo spotted over to my right, glance over, but it's out of range. Back to gunning down those little dots running around by the CP. Every dot I kill is -1 ticket for the opposing team assuming he's not revived. It's positive suppression while I wait for my armor column to reform and meet me. Someone spotted that chopper again, and it's coming near me this time - I look over, see him before he enters weapon range, and start firing just at the right moment. He's smoking pretty good by the time he figures out where he's getting hit from and runs back to base for repairs.

Oops, I see the tank spawned at that CP. I focus fire on it, hoping to deter or kill anyone wanting to hop in, but they make it in anyways (must have approached from behind it!). I immediately break contact and pull back, knowing that I am an easy kill for that tank. I meet up with the armor column and we prepare for another push.

So I've killed perhaps a half dozen or more infantry on the flag with no intention of capping it myself, used zero degree direct fire from an AA gun on a flag, succesfully damaged an enemy helicopter (damaging is more effective than outright killing, in my opinion, as the chopper must go back to base, repair, and fly back, all of which taken together takes more time than respawning and flying back). If any other enemy aircraft had flown near me, they, too, would've been suppressed.

I simply can not understand why anyone here would want to micromanage my game to such an extent that this use of AA becomes unacceptable. It is extremely lethal, but so is everything in this game. Play around with any of the tank's HEAP rounds against infantry and I think you'll be surprised. The blast is massive. It makes the AA's spash damage look weak in comparison. That's the way POE2 is, and I embrace it.

Finally, if you're getting killed over and over again while trying to spawn in, please take the initiative to concede the flag and spawn somewhere else. Both teams in POE2 have UCB's, the UCB's have domes of death, and if anyone infringes on your dome you'd best believe they will be kicked in short order. Take advantage of your safe haven and don't complain about being dominated on the field of battle by weapon systems which your team has in equal number.

**DudeWheresMyAK47** · 09-08-2006, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by Exploding_Silver

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Robocop is too powerful

.

Lol, he ought to get back to serving the bloody public trust and upholding the law - though how he has time to do those things when he is running around repairing everyone's tanks is beyond me

**Mateo** · 09-08-2006, 07:08 PM

I don't think anything is too powerful in the game, but it is apparent that poor sportsmanship by pub players (and even some regulars that have stooped to their level) will not get solved without active and forceful admin presence.

Apophis, you are correct in appealing to the philosophy behind TG, and exhorting our forum members to be on their best behavior, but absent that, the banhammer should start to fall.

**TychoCelchuuu** · 09-08-2006, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by icky

x is definitely too powerful, and I would like to see it removed from the game.

Exactly, I've been saying this since the mod came out. If we don't remove whatever killed me last, teamplay and tactics are doomed on our server.

**ABRA** · 09-08-2006, 07:12 PM

While your senerio paints an optimal picture for AA switching its roles well, I think arty is another story. But it would appear I am the in the minority that feels this way about this. Realizing TG can't please everyone all of the time, I will gladily accept TG as it is for what it is: the best place to play online irrespective of differences in opinion in deploying certain weapons.

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