Re: Attn E-Male: Response to Defensive Triangle Strategy

**E-Male** · 10-02-2006, 06:23 PM

I cannot as yet answer the more theorectical question raised by ABRA regarding SL discipline on non-PW nights, as I have only implimented the Defensive Triangle Strategy (DTS) on three nights (apporximately 6 separate maps/battles). Will get back with more observations in the weeks following.

On NON-TG SLs

I think it is noteworthy that I have seen more REGULAR players, new to TG, performing very well as SLs, which is a very good sign of continued growth with TG. Hopefully these players understand that there is no charge to the use of the TG prefix, and will soon adopt it -- the prefix is a good indication of ones alliegence to our high standards and the high expectations we have of each other. This suggests that the ADMINS are to be congratulated on applying neither too little nor too hard a measure of discipline in what has certainly been trying times over the past few months of PoE mania.

I will attempt to play as CO both tonight and tomorrow (Tuesday, PW night), and report on any significant variations in team discipline, although I think we all have found PW night to attact some of the best TGers and non-TGers to our space. Care must be taken to treat all with respect, as we were all bunny-hopping noobs at one point or another...

My Main Concern with the DTS

The repsonse to the DTS posting has been surprising and delightful (always nice to be read). My main reason for posting the DTS was to get feedback on how my rather demanding orders played out. No disparagment of those who like to play a more agressive game is intended, but the DTS by its very design means that the battle is fought defensively (see the related thread above:
http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...-strategy.html

The DTS allows for a shifting of forces so everyone gets a fair piece of the action, so no one should feel hard done by. This is discussed within the DTS and on related links, and comments above suggest that there is enough action to go around within the DTS.

What your collective response indicates is a general willingness to abide by the DTS (and I am not saying this is the only way to play or the only way I would CO). Many in this thread have commented on the way the DTS works to bring us together as a TEAM, which aside from scrims (which I find to be the closet thing to a figgin religious experience these days), has been the holy grail of TG and BF2. Great squad work has not been hard to find, but a sense of all working together is what makes the scrims special, and perhaps with the DTS we will find a way to move further in that direction.

Please do not think that I am proposing te DTS as the only way to create a better sense of team play. I think Beatnik summerized the team experience very well in the following:

"E-Male had the entire team working as one using the triangle strategy on Fallen. He effectively used the general chat to let the whole team know what was up, and individual channels to coordinate dual squad assaults/defenses. It was truly a scrim-eque level of organization, with squads being rotated out of back flags periodically. Seeing squads move quickly with that amount of coordination was very cool. We were 100% working as one unit, and because of that we held on and won the game, and everyone on the team got good trigger time as well."

A clearly communicated strategy relayed to the WHOLE and to SLs as required, then the visual demonstration of the effectivenes of that strategy as all parts worked together. Whether or not the DTS is used is immaterial when compared to the basic element of a defined strategy clearly communicated to all in an appropriate manner. The team did the rest, I just kept the various units on target and informed.

On Fire Discipline

Acid's comments opened my eyes to an issue of great import: 'the purpose of a fast support squad is to get to the flag in need, as quickly as possible, usually because the flag is going to fall. That's a situation when fire diciplines comes in handy.'

This is good to know. I will make a point of emphasizing DISENGAGE and hit the target when giving such orders for the reserve untit. Usually, a squad is called to move to a target with a need for great speed, and the CO is aware of the situation that is left behind and is likely shifting forces to assist were the reserve unit once was -- all this to say, yes, fire discipline is essential for the reserve unit. I'll be looking for the best squads to fill the demanding role of reserve for this and other reasons, but for the sake of training and fairness, I will avoid placing the same squads in the same roles over and over again.

Having set this, please do not think I wish to monopolize the role of the CO.

I'll continue to make slideshows and videos of the CO screen (CPU permitting) and post here. I'll try to gather together what I have done thus far. I have created a Tactical Gamer account name on youtube for posting of CO screen videos, but resolution remains a problem.

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TacticalGamer

E-Male

**Acid** · 10-02-2006, 06:30 PM

*points finger* CO monopolizer

.

Whenever I CO and go to rotate squads around, they don't seem to move fast enough to keep all flags covered. I would have them moving around the flags I had, and one would get caught up on a flag, leaving the flag they were going to undefended. My guess is that the Fast Response squad would also be rotated, using it as a buffer between the attackers as the squads swiched positions, then swiching the fast attack squad out after the rotation was complete.

**Lucky Shot** · 10-03-2006, 01:33 AM

I CO'd a couple rounds tonight, but only one against Emale. Missed out on Carpathian as someone with a higher rank (go figure) jumped into that position. On Highway to Hell, we did get in a head to head round versus Emale. Because of the way the map is set up, it's possible to fit Emale's strategy and that's what we did. If I remember it correctly, there is 1 armor piece that appears at every flag, so there aren't flags that are "Worth" more with the exception of the Lumbermill and Farm which have fixed AA's. So I ran it based off of Emale's system and had enough squads who were listening to orders to get us the win.

Thanks to MoreGooder, Shafik, LekDevil and Ballzitch for providing me 4 squad leaders who followed orders to a T. Shafik was able to get his guys to hold down the lumbermill which is a boring flag. LekDevil was a huge asset in the jets and did this despite not being able to communicate to squad 2's jet. Ballzitch (SL 4) had a smaller squad but did the unpopular thing of defending the fishing village. MoreGooder had constant assistance from at least one other squad at all times but was able to make sure that we held the Town. We placed the majority of our troops in the Town and held it for the majority of the game against constant rushes. The LumberMill and Fishing Village saw heavy attacks at times, but it was very few and far between. Either way, it wasn't a PW night and Emale's DTS triangle works. It could have very easily worked for him against me if he had more squads listening to him.

For what it's worth... The flags were too far away to rotate squads in and out from back flags to forward so rotating squads from inaction to action was difficult. Secondly, because we weren't losing a great deal of flags, I didn't have the opportunity to really roll out the "pull an existing squad off back flags and move them to the front".

Lucky Shot

**E-Male** · 10-03-2006, 09:07 AM

As this is still about the DTS I'll post the results of a 15 second interval screen capture of the Highway to Hell session against Lucky Shot last night. Lucky dominated my team. We were hardly able to hold two flags, and seldom had three at the same time. Most of my squads did not follow orders -- had a terrible time COing as a result. As the forthcoming video will show, too often a squad would get a flag and then immedietely vacate the flag, leaving it entirely undefended. Stupid pubbie behaviour that ruins a game for the team.

I may have had some people booted who were not SLs, if so, my apologies -- I was assuming that the first name in the squad list was the squad leader. I will take more care next time to ensure that I am communicating the correct name to the Admins.

Can't wage a war without orders being followed, can't test the DTS under these conditions. Will try again tonight.

E-Male

**Wimpinator** · 10-03-2006, 10:49 AM

Since I have never played CO I can't really comment on the over all strategies, but I will say thanks to E-Male for the great research. I have been following these threads and it it really good information.

I will address the fire discipline. As many of you more experienced SL's know it can be very difficult to get the squad to break off quickly when a CP is under attack. I am trying to work on this but it can really be tough to pull out quickly when under fire. The best method I have found is to tell the squad what is up and assign someone to lead the way out. Of course this is seldom a problem when it is all TG guys in the squad.

**Pvt_Meister** · 10-03-2006, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Lucky Shot

I CO'd a couple rounds tonight, but only one against Emale. Missed out on Carpathian as someone with a higher rank (go figure) jumped into that position. On Highway to Hell, we did get in a head to head round versus Emale. Because of the way the map is set up, it's possible to fit Emale's strategy and that's what we did. If I remember it correctly, there is 1 armor piece that appears at every flag, so there aren't flags that are "Worth" more with the exception of the Lumbermill and Farm which have fixed AA's. So I ran it based off of Emale's system and had enough squads who were listening to orders to get us the win.

Thanks to MoreGooder, Shafik, LekDevil and Ballzitch for providing me 4 squad leaders who followed orders to a T. Shafik was able to get his guys to hold down the lumbermill which is a boring flag. LekDevil was a huge asset in the jets and did this despite not being able to communicate to squad 2's jet. Ballzitch (SL 4) had a smaller squad but did the unpopular thing of defending the fishing village. MoreGooder had constant assistance from at least one other squad at all times but was able to make sure that we held the Town. We placed the majority of our troops in the Town and held it for the majority of the game against constant rushes. The LumberMill and Fishing Village saw heavy attacks at times, but it was very few and far between. Either way, it wasn't a PW night and Emale's DTS triangle works. It could have very easily worked for him against me if he had more squads listening to him.

For what it's worth... The flags were too far away to rotate squads in and out from back flags to forward so rotating squads from inaction to action was difficult. Secondly, because we weren't losing a great deal of flags, I didn't have the opportunity to really roll out the "pull an existing squad off back flags and move them to the front".

Lucky Shot

Am I the only one to notice that Lucky's squads had no medics? No wonder I rarely get revived... I'm the only medic

**Acid** · 10-03-2006, 12:21 PM

Well, most situations force you into a triangle defense. Think about it, 5 flags, arranged in similar fassion, usually result in one team having 3 flags. Those 3 flags usually form a triangle, and it does make for a great defense.

**E-Male** · 10-03-2006, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Acid

Well, most situations force you into a triangle defense. Think about it, 5 flags, arranged in similar fassion, usually result in one team having 3 flags. Those 3 flags usually form a triangle, and it does make for a great defense.

Indeed. I am not claiming originality here -- just making the issue obvious and putting it out for discussion.

E-Male

**John CANavar** · 10-03-2006, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Acid

Well, most situations force you into a triangle defense. Think about it, 5 flags, arranged in similar fassion, usually result in one team having 3 flags. Those 3 flags usually form a triangle, and it does make for a great defense.

But there is a big difference between "randomly" finding yourself in that situation and "systematically" reaching it and then "trying to hold" by simple set of logistical rules.

E-male's description and procedure made something we all know a solid strategy that can be executed easily.

**Ol'Smoke** · 10-03-2006, 01:45 PM

In maps with a transport chopper: have 8 men wait in the ucb beside the chopper spawn. That way they cant be attacked and are always available. I tested this once, and it worked. You need your most disciplined squad though as they will have to wait 95% of the time.

+cant be attacked
+fast
+a quarter of your team being able to react

-boring
-you need early warnings from contested flags

**E-Male** · 10-03-2006, 05:08 PM

An interesting proposal (below) from Ol'Smoke, but on TG our maps last 30 to 40 minutes (not the 15 seen on most BF2 servers). I ask much of my defending squads but holding one back for extended periods of time at the UCB would be too much, I fear. It would be altogether impossible with the average group on non-TGers who are not familiar with team discipline and a chain of command.

There is a point cost to such a 6 man drain on resources. Six (or less) held back at the UCB is six who could be acting as forward defense (the reserve unit as described in the DTS), a block against a forward enemy or, through maintaining the mid point in the defensive triangle, eliminating enemies. This way points are gained while pressure is taken off of the defending squads.

More on the Function of the Reserve Unit

As someone pointed out, an ideal DTS creates a single large flag zone, and the use of a reserve squad enables the middle of the zone to act as a killing field, while defending flag squads repell assaults from the exterior. I realize that this is a difficult senerio to maintain, and thus far I have only been able to use a reserve unit in this fashion on certain maps, for a limited amount of time. My hope is to develop a growing knowledge base among TG SLs who, when placed in the role of the reserve unit, will have a prior understanding of their role, and will be that much more effective as a result of repeated experience.

The idea of a chopper at the ready held at the UCB has merits, nonetheless.

E-Male

Originally Posted by Ol'Smoke

In maps with a transport chopper: have 8 men wait in the ucb beside the chopper spawn. That way they cant be attacked and are always available. I tested this once, and it worked. You need your most disciplined squad though as they will have to wait 95% of the time.

+cant be attacked
+fast
+a quarter of your team being able to react

-boring
-you need early warnings from contested flags

**Wimpinator** · 10-03-2006, 06:18 PM

What about moving the chopper to where the reserve unit could access it quickly? It would be tough to do on forest maps but possible on the more open ones. It would allow a VERY quick method for the reserve unit to move into a flag or harras the attackers with machine gun fire from above.

**Lucky Shot** · 10-03-2006, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by Wimpinator

What about moving the chopper to where the reserve unit could access it quickly? It would be tough to do on forest maps but possible on the more open ones. It would allow a VERY quick method for the reserve unit to move into a flag or harras the attackers with machine gun fire from above.

I hear what your saying, but even having a squad in no man's land waiting for a chopper 30 seconds away is too long. That squad should be in armor or at the very least, jeeps already. If it was truly necessary, they would be in the transport chopper circling the flags (Think First Snow). If they were in the middle of the battlefield, they could hoof it to that next flag within 30 seconds.

Lucky Shot

**BigGaayAl** · 10-04-2006, 12:21 PM

In connection to the reserve squad, I'd like to talk about a round I once played.

We had a lot of fun, we lost, but I still think it was pretty effective. If only we could have been a bit faster.

The strategy was that all of my squad had Armor, all (all drivers at least) were engineer to repair each other. I myself went crazy Sl and drove a jeep as engineer, buzzing between tanks, providing emergency repairs.

The key of my plan was that we keep moving as a group at ALL times, specifically when engaging the enemy. We would always be moving, always repairing. With practice and skill, damaged armor would be covered by undamaged armor while remaining in a tight enough formation.

When we were supporting a flag (we couldn't really take a flag without infantry support) I'd give the order to circle it, clearing out enemys that are approaching the flag, putting fire on the flag area from all sides. After one circle, It would be time for a different move. This move was pretty effective.

Being in the jeep was a blast. I was able to keep a certain continuity as I stayed alive long. I was able to repair, pick up stranded SM's, and run like hell if my squad was wiped out.

Now the problems I encountered. It requires HUGE discipline, consistently available armor, people that know how to drive the armor, and NO stopping.

-It was impossible to get my squad with some experienced players to keep driving on. They were I guess so used to it. When one stopped, the formation disappeared, and we were a squad of sitting ducks. It must be very counter intuitive to rely on some other tank to stay with you and repair you. People also seem to think a tank can't hit things while driving. We would have five tanks vs one tank, and STILL they would stop to shoot it, no matter what I said 10x. Apperently it is very counter intuitive.

-People did not have the discipline or skill to have 5 pieces of armor drive all within repair distance of one another.

-Stopping=death. If this much armor stops in a field, you get surrounded, sniped by at's,... I don't care how much engineers there are, you get wiped in a minute.

-This game was on a map without air, and the strategy would be more diffficult an air map.

I hope that I've brought some new Idea's for this reserve squad. In the game I talked about we were a reserve squad, but we weren't fast enoug in gathering up the armor (other squads would also take it). We were always mobile, all the time we were seconds from moving out on CO orders. That is something worth considering.

One of its best points was having the SL in a fast mover, instead of an armor. Zipping between tanks I could keep an eye on all the tanks, and fill gaps in the formation. Aside from it's effectiveness, it was a blast to play like that. Definitely try it some time.
If I try it again, I'll name my squad "Armor" or something like that.

ps: I think this isn't considered topic, otherwise, I'll place it in one of the relating topics.

**Acid** · 10-04-2006, 01:11 PM

With an air map, that would completely change everything, and you wouldn't want to be in formation, although you still would want to be in constant motion. An all armor squad would have to be able to split up between flags and provide support in multiple areas, wherever the CO needed it.

Armor is best in 2's (fireteams):

-they can repair eachother and keep fighting
-one can protect the other from attacks while they repair, and they can swich off protecting eachother
-they can use alternate firing methods, keeping a constant shelling of an area
-they can flank seperatly and give squads a really hard time trying to track down both of them at the same time

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