ABRA

This thread is a response to E-male's thread. What I read there is all quite beautiful and it brings a tear to me old aching TG eye. I am starting this thread because I want to discuss another side of this without derailing the direction your thread is headed in.

I have to ask. How successful have you been in implementing this level of coordination on any given round with any random mix of TGers and pub SLs on a non-PW night? I do not mean to be beg a defeatist question but I am genuinely interested in your experiences.

Obviously we have all seen crude approximations of this strategy in action. Simply set a few waypoints and the lads should generally find their way there. Sometimes slowly, sometimes insubordinately, and but just as often heroically overcoming obstacles in their path.

But that is not really what I am interested in. It is the finesse of the subtler accoutrements of this strategy. A fifth rapid reserve squad integrated into other SL's minds for instance. How successful have you been in getting a squad to perform this role as drawn up in an effective, decisive manner? What indications have you had that the other defending SLs know of and understand that reserve squad's purpose as your strategy purports them to? How have those SLs demonstrated an effective utilization of that reserve squad?

How well have the players on the TG server met this requirement? Can you think of any actions or arenas TG could provide or facilitate that would promote this style of teamwork and sacrifice? I mean specifically one that goes beyond our already common squad-level tactical teamwork and exemplifies a truly team-wide teamwork scheme in which whole squads are sometimes called upon to sacrifice and fill less interesting roles that promote larger team-wide tactical needs. This is the sort of thing seen in sports, even amateur recreational sports, and I am interested in what ways you have seen similar circumstances here at TG.

Again, this idea is pure genius. By advancing the forward most units the second the flag falls you ensure maximum containment of the enemy thrust. But again, I would be interested in any of your experiences recently on the PoE server outside of special events or PW nights in which this plan was executed successfully. Great plan, it is definitely worth trying, and I praise the creative brainstorming, but do you feel it is feasible goal for random nights on the PoE server with the usual mix of players we get? I'm not looking for either a yes or no, i am genuinely interested in your frank opinion of it.

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ABRA

This is a feeler for a larger iniative that has recently begun that is in the same spirit as the Minicamps and League btw. Hypehypehype.

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Beatnik

I was a SL on the last PW night for E-Male on Fallen and Carpathian (I SLed for Squad 5). I know your questions more about non-PW nights, but on that night E-Male had the entire team working as one using the triangle strategy on Fallen. He effectively used the general chat to let the whole team know what was up, and individual channels to coordinate dual squad assaults/defenses. It was truly a scrim-eque level of organization, with squads being rotated out of back flags periodically. Seeing squads move quickly with that amount of coordination was very cool. We were 100% working as one unit, and because of that we held on and won the game, and everyone on the team got good trigger time as well.

From what I've seen so far that level of coordination isn't yet possible on a non-PW/event night, but the gameplay is starting to trend upward and I'm optimistic that it will get there soon enough. Once other new POE regulars get a taste of an epic battle or two like we saw that night, they'll start to see that there's much more depth the engine can provide than constant uncoordinated assaults.

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Coridon

I don't play POE2, and since E-male is probably in bed (Canadians need their beauty sleep ) I thought I'd say a couple of things...

Beatnik is correct that it has to be on PW night only at this point. In the 1stMIP forums E-male will mention that on average no more than two of five squads will follow direct orders on a random night. Yes, he contacts admins and gets unresponsive SLs kicked but it's still a major hassle...

The other tidbit, and I don't know if he mentioned this, is that he has recorded a handful of his outtings as CO and uploads them. The movies are sped up so a one hour round might last one minute, so it's really interesting to see the ebb and flow up this "triangle" in fast forward. Also really interesting to see a "flag hopping" round in high speed. Eye opening...

ABRA

:O

I'd love to see those videos. I too see that trend Beatnik. It seems that maybe it is the COs and SLs that make the epic battle come together and less so the much maligned PoE guest crowd. To that end I am wondering if aiding such capable, essential, and frankly rare COs as E-Male with proper SLs somehow might be just the ticket to make such epic battles . . . well much less epic and much more common.

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Lucky Shot

I have seen Emale perform this on Non-PW nights, but without TG Squad Leaders, your not going to get a consistent response. You have 1 and 2 man squads through 8 squads and some nights I have difficulty forming a squad when I first start.

The times where it has been successful typically has had strong TG squad leaders under Emale. I remember one non PW night of Me, Mantis and 2 more TG Squad Leaders... http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...aine-side.html The result was a drubbing of the opponent. But if as CO, you have to spend more time trying to get multiple 2 man squads to respond, your not effective.

I was ok with taking over the CO role from time to time in BF2 as I had a series of toys to play with on top of coordination. In POE, the lack of assets, some squads not following the orders, and the lack of understanding of win objectives from some squad leaders leads to frustration in what should be easy wins. I know also that as effective as I may be as CO, I am far more effective as an SL. Especially as I watch others fail at objectives repeatedly that I know I could take or hold.

Emale's strategy works, but only with the right talent at the SL level. My strategy would work, but not as often as E-Males as his strategy is simple enough to work consistently over mine.

Lucky Shot

RegaloDeMuerte

Again, this pertains to a password night but E-Male employed this strategy for the three maps that I was able to play on and, for the most part, it worked beautifully. I played Rivne, Carpathian and Fallen and for the first two it worked very well and we won by large margins but, understandably, Fallen was a bit more chaotic, even though we ended up winning.

He had the squad I was in defending North Cabin on Carpathian and though we stood around for a bit with nothing to do, all of a sudden we got a pretty intense assault that we were able to put down and keep the Ukranians on a heavy bleed, when I'm sure they thought that rear flag would be unguarded and a quick fix to alleviate some of the ticket loss.

Beatnik

I'd like to see those vids too.

Yeah the single thing that most often blocks our critical path to great games everytime is a lack of CO on one or both sides, or a CO not focused on the big picture (and most likely running around the battlefield). After that, that CO needs good SLs to execute his strategy. We need to continue to make an effort to have TG regulars step up to CO on PW nights, and get a good distribution of above average SLs spread across both teams. With a CO and decent SLs the chain of command is in place and the game dynamics shift significantly for the better.

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Ol'Smoke

It begins with the squadleaders.

I do not agree about this tactic only working on PW nights. You only need one squad to defend the rear flags (on most big maps) and usually there will be a TG squad available. I have seen it working on non-PW nights. Be sure to tell everybody not to attack anything once you have bleed. Verify, report.

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And, his empty cry we fear.
Sad old Smoke, out there in the rain,
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ABRA

This emphasis on the need for quality SLs raises another question of mine.

Would these SLs(with a decently competent CO) be enough to facilitate this level of game play regardless of who joins their squads? Two things here: one our legendary SLs(we know who they are) attract 6 man squads of strong TG players, and two does the CO inefficiency of corralling uncooperative SLs extend to even great SLs and uncooperative squad mates? I mean to say, no one doubts how excellent our SLs are. But for those SLs with a good reputation, are they effective CO tools because their squads are often made up of above-average soldiers or would they be just as effective if they didn't attract strong TGers based on name-recognition? Which came first the awesome SL's leadership ability or the awesome squad that is indicative of his awesome leadership?

What I'm getting at, quite poorly, is that could a CO with a team of clutch SLs bring about such epic battles even if their squad members were random, often non-TGers, some without mics, and some no following orders, at least at first?

This is what Beatnik suggests and I want to get the feedback from the COs and SLs in question as to whether if this were the case, could they get the job done without always the most exemplary players of the TG mission.

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Ol'Smoke

For me a SL is good enough if he follows orders and keeps his squad together. You should have your best squad defend the rear bases.

__________________
Hear ye, of the dragon, Smoke is his name.
Solely surviving the fires,
and sad and angry he became.
Until his angre became dismay,
as the elders sent him away.

Now we can hear his wings, once a year,
And, his empty cry we fear.
Sad old Smoke, out there in the rain,
We can feel your suffering, we can feel your pain.

Bommando

Interesting point and one I have discussed with Wulfyn in the past. Often, a good SL will rise to fame by showing good leadership, but once they're 'popular', they attract most of the crack players and then they can really do no wrong. While it's obvious that good players make a good SL's job easier, there is one thing that a good SL will do even with green players: Communicate with their CO.

I see many SLs out there who know how to lead a squad, but fail when it comes to utilising the most important tool of all: Their CO. It's basically the difference between having a squad which assaults / defends CPs effectively and top scores for the round and one which provides a crucial role to win the round for their team. While these functions are often congruous they are not always so.

Acid

What happens in the defensive triangle with a fast support squad is that the squad members engage targets on the way between flags, hunting for kills, and not just rushing to support the selected flag. It may only be one guy they spot, but the purpouse of a fast support squad is to get to the flag in need, as quickly as possible, usually because the flag is going to fall. That's a situation when fire diciplines comes in handy.

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experiment626

I agree 100%. I have seen many, many repeat "customers" to TEAM 33. And to me this is the greatest compliment I've ever got. Can't remeber who said it, but it was to the effect of "You know what your doing Experiment, so I came over here." I can consistently fill up my squad with experienced TGers and really talented new guys (tha_khan, DC Calvin, etc.) ussually before I'm 5 minutes into the map. This says alot, as the people who join my squad are TGers I've looked up to since I started playing a year ago. You can keep your ribbons (not that their not nice, and I'm not giving up my SL badge!!!) But the biggest compliment to me as an SL, is having you all join.

It is absolutly essential that they talk, but my gripe as SL, is we do not have enough commanders like E_Male, stepping up to the plate. I've seen good pubbie squads, and good TG squads on; and no commander *sniff* we're going to waste!

I concur with his strategy, and Lucky adds some fine points. When I played commander back on Vanilla...I would often sacrifice the Oil cisterns for possesion of 4 other flags. They were ALWAYS contesting for it so I said let them have it. THey will go for specific flags and dump large amounts of troops on them. This ties up a large chunk of the enemies forces, defending something that i never had any intention of attacking.

tHa_KhAn

This is a great point to bring up. I'm guilty of too, but when I SL I really try to remind everyone not to chase the rabbits. If we can circumvent their forces(ie. Crash site to trenches on Fallen) it makes taking the flag easier, we won't have any respawners expecting us and chances are the defense will be light. If you attack not only do u get spread out, but u can get bogged down and lose the element of suprise. Easy kills are hard to pass up, but for the greater good many times it is necessay to just let them move on by and you go take your objective. This even more important on defense. Don't worry about killing them, get to the flag and stop the fall. Even if you die doing it, it make be that one extra second that lets a new SL spawn at the flag.