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Discussion: Battlefield 2 / Battlefield 2 - Point of Existence Discussion - E-Male COing Tonight (Oct 3) -- DeBriefing and Humble Pie Eating - Well, in a word. I sucked. The first map was Fallen. I had three decent
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10-04-2006, 12:21 AM #1
E-Male COing Tonight (Oct 3) -- DeBriefing and Humble Pie Eating
Well, in a word. I sucked. The first map was Fallen. I had three decent squads, but not enough to test the Defensive Triangle Strategy. We could hold two flags, but not three.
After a while it was clear we were going to loose, so I tried orchestrating a mass flag grab with all three squads moving as one -- just to see how this would effect ticket gain. Not enough. I was clearly ineffective so I threw in the towel about 3/4 the way through.
Server population never climbed high enough after that, and I saw Admin Icky threatening the unwashed masses over global chat. Not ideal conditions for a test of the DTS.
E-Male
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10-04-2006, 02:20 AM #2
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Re: E-Male COing Tonight (Oct 3) -- DeBriefing and Humble Pie Eating
Don't be too hard on yourself Emale. You come up with the info, it's up to the Squad Leaders to deliver and we just weren't able to do it. I ran squad 5 and had good talent, but kept running into the buzzsaw by the trenches. Unlike the many times we play normal Fallen, the enemy defended not only the flags, but the gaps between them. Seemed like the Vepr reigned supreme.
Props to the Ukraine side.
Lucky Shot
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10-04-2006, 10:32 AM #3
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Re: E-Male COing Tonight (Oct 3) -- DeBriefing and Humble Pie Eating
The UKR had an excellent defense line setup along the river. It was an extemely frustrating game and it seemed like I could never last more than a minute without getting mowed down from some direction.
The Dirty
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10-04-2006, 01:02 PM #4
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Re: E-Male COing Tonight (Oct 3) -- DeBriefing and Humble Pie Eating
hehe...the round on fallen was fun, for Ukraine anyway.
Without a commander we used teamchat to coordinate taking the two flags and the third squad engaging any enemies. After that, the 3 squads picked their locations and spread out in line abreast on the Ukraine side of the stream. A formidable defense on that map. My squad was center squad for most of the match and I had two runners Bane and Ust@m that reinforced the other squads when needed.(Assuming you're talking about the Fallen that was played 8:30is EST)
I do have some curiosity related questions for you E-male. Our north seemed to get all the action for the majority of the map. Was this due to you guys holding the North Cabin? Or was a deliberate strategy choosing it as the path of least resistance. I believe the initial push was actually south and almost succeed then you guys went north and pretty much stayed north. We got very little encounters at the crash site in the middle. Was there any attempt to covertly take the rear flags like the south cabin? Why the relatively light pushes on the center? Congrats on the your mass northern push as it worked well and you took the lumbermill which ultimately led to some more even fighting but our lead was already huge. The speed that push occurred was faster than our squad was able to respond.
Thoughts on DTS, while we only had three squads we were using a type of the DTS strategy. The middle squad would send fragements to respond. However the effectiveness of an all out push was witnessed as there was not enough time to respond without a commander forwarning. It would be interesting to see what would have happend against a big push had we been made aware before it was too late.
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10-04-2006, 01:10 PM #5
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Re: E-Male COing Tonight (Oct 3) -- DeBriefing and Humble Pie Eating
I played last night E-Male, and i have a bit of (hopefully) constuctive critisism.
First,
Do not throw your team into a meat grinder when bleeding.
You had three squads positioned between north cabin and lumbermill.
You had express orders not to move from the move point unless ordered so we stayed there constantly being assaulted from an enemy who had a closer spawn point and more resources (tickets) with no orders to close and take the flag when we could have several times.
Second,
Bruce Lee says, "Be like water."
You must quickly change strategies when needed. The enemy knew you were going to try to keep those three flags closest to our UCB. You posted as much here in the forum.
I say backflag them, throw them off and try for the three you want while theyre reeling.
Third,
Fallen is drastically biased for ukraine. The VEPR is badass. ( i started shooting someone at close range with the ger support gun and he turned and killed me with the VEPR) Ihave never been on the winning side as german on fallen.
Im no master strategist, take this with a grain of salt, but dont give up CO'ing its gonna take practice
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10-04-2006, 01:21 PM #6
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Re: E-Male COing Tonight (Oct 3) -- DeBriefing and Humble Pie Eating
Snipers are devastating on this map, so try that out.
As for COing, it is extrememly hard to dig youself out of a pit in Fallen, and it often requires loosing a flag to gain 2. You have to leave one side of yourself open to attack, and once they take the bait, send 3 squads rushing at the opposite side flags, and have your other squads rotate one flag over to defend the flags the 3 rushing squads left uncovered.
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10-04-2006, 02:02 PM #7
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Re: E-Male COing Tonight (Oct 3) -- DeBriefing and Humble Pie Eating
E-Male my friend don't ever down play yourself as a CO. Lets take a look at this from your enemies point of veiw. They all knew well in advance what you wanted to do as a commander. I know for a fact there are several folks out there (me included) that are trying to develope a tactic of our own primarily to counter act the DTS. Take this as the highest compliment as it is intended to be one.
It was password night last night correct? That means the server wasn't full right? Well with that in mind we must assume that you didn't have 5 full squads. If you don't have 5 full squads then you can't hold 3 flags with the DTS. Follow me here for a minute.
One squad per flag with two in reserve is 5 squads correct? If you only have one squad per flag then if one of them gets wiped out you don't have any reserve to come in and retake the flag (I don't consider a 2 or 3 man group to be a squad). And sending one lone squad across open ground to attempt a recovery-recapture manuver is suicide on Fallen.
As with all things combative there are never any "set in stone" tactics, you must be able to improvise, adapt and overcome. You have the foundation for a great tactic that I feel will dominate any scrim we ever get into. I also believe that with a little fine tuning with squad size and weapon choices you could easily have a couple of 2-3 man groups running around just causing problems and keeping the other team off balance.
I'd recommend setting up a scrim against some other sect to test this theory. This way you know that the opposing team won't know what you plan (we hope) and you'll be assured of getting squads full of TGer's that know how to follow orders.
Just some random thoughts.
Originally Posted by E-Male
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10-04-2006, 03:32 PM #8
Re: E-Male COing Tonight (Oct 3) -- DeBriefing and Humble Pie Eating
A few notes on Freeky's thoughts:
Quote:
"Do not throw your team into a meat grinder when bleeding"
As I explained last night to the SLs, we were WELL past the point of regaining a lead and winning. Thus I opted for a trial to see how effective a moving wall of force would be with the SLs positioned to the rear of the wall. As noted in the previous comment in this thread, The 'moving wall' was effective, and I would not hesitate to use it again in a situation where I had two more squads holding our flags. Those that participated in our last scrim against =US= will remember that our CO more or less created a moving wall in the last minutes of Dragon Valley.
Quote:
"You had express orders not to move from the move point unless ordered so we stayed there constantly being assaulted from an enemy who had a closer spawn point and more resources (tickets) with no orders to close and take the flag when we could have several times."
Yes, I was late on getting back to you, and should have given you a secondary objective to achieve once the first 'move to' was achieved. Point well taken.
Quote:
"You must quickly change strategies when needed. The enemy knew you were going to try to keep those three flags closest to our UCB. You posted as much here in the forum. I say backflag them, throw them off and try for the three you want while theyre reeling."
You are assuming too much here. The DTS is more fluid then simply always deploying the same force ratios to the same flags relative to the UCB, as discussed in a related thread. Your point is correct, but don't assume the DTS is such a ridged plan.
Quote:
"take this with a grain of salt, but dont give up CO'ing its gonna take practice"
Indeed, and I most certainly appreciate the feedback and your insight.
E-Male
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10-04-2006, 04:00 PM #9
Re: E-Male COing Tonight (Oct 3) -- DeBriefing and Humble Pie Eating
Thanks Backlash -- just my Canadian character spilling out. If Canadian invented a cure for all cancers the first thing he would say is 'sorry'. Originally Posted by Backlash-7
As soon as the Fallen map loaded and I saw the number I IMMEDIATELY abandoned any attempt to apply the DTS. Not to make excuses for myself here, but the DTS requires a given number of men for a given number of flags.
The river on Fallen makes for a huge defensive postion for Ukraine, and caused us much grief as a result. Between puzzling over what to do, spotting enemy flags for weak targets, spotting our own flags under attack, and so forth, I just failed to come up with anything that closed the gap.
This sent me into a bit of a spin, as (as I have said before) I am not very experienced at COing and found myself in a difficult fight last night on Fallen -- I'm not a very strong swimmer...
No matter. Win some, loose some. But at no time was I applying the DTS last night.
I'll make it very clear to my SLs when we are implimenting the DTS.
And yes, a scrim down the road would be great, particularly after we have subjected the DTS to testing and the counter strategies I hear are afoot.
E-Male
"Felixibility in yoga and warfare is a good thing."
-- Martha 'Art of War' Stewart
"I'm very bendy." Fibi (from the cast of Friends sitcom)
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10-04-2006, 05:07 PM #10
Re: E-Male COing Tonight (Oct 3) -- DeBriefing and Humble Pie Eating
DB
|TG-6th|Blonov
«That looks like a really nice house except for that horrible bathroom.» Donrhos
PR:How to get started | Teamspeak | Banned ? Kicked ? | The 6th Devils Brigade
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10-04-2006, 05:23 PM #11
Re: E-Male COing Tonight (Oct 3) -- DeBriefing and Humble Pie Eating
Seriously, how about we try to set-up a scrim/practice of sorts and try out some tactics (mini-camp like). ?
DB|TG-6th|Blonov
«That looks like a really nice house except for that horrible bathroom.» Donrhos
PR:How to get started | Teamspeak | Banned ? Kicked ? | The 6th Devils Brigade
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10-04-2006, 05:28 PM #12
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Re: E-Male COing Tonight (Oct 3) -- DeBriefing and Humble Pie Eating
The UKR side was simply several times stronger than the GER side for Fallen and the map which preceded it. No CO is going to change that. The GER side was being dominated on Fallen and then Dark Viper showed up and started a squad, making things worse (not your fault Viper, just bad timing). The GER side almost never held more than one CP in that entire 400+ point defeat. It was horrible to play, and it resulted in a server which never saw more than 40 people for the rest of the night.
I will recommend some things for your future CO efforts on Fallen though.
1. If you get pushed back to 1 flag + UCB, do not spawn at the 1 flag. It WILL be surrounded by the entire enemy team, and moving out from it will be nearly impossible. The enemy won't be moving into the UCB, so you will at least have a chance. Leave maybe 1 squad on defense near the flag, just to slow down the swarm, but don't try to move out from there.
2. Run like a bunny for the back flags. If you are pushed back in Fallen, your movement options are severely limited. If you own just one of the back flags, your movement options are suddenly wide open. You can spawn on either side of the map, and you can attack any flag.
3. Once you get a back flag, dedicate an high number of resources to defending it, and let the enemy try to take it. Meanwhile, strike out with a small force from the UCB to take something lightly defended or undefended. This is easier because everyone expects attacks to come out of the most recently capped flag.
4. (This is opinion only) Never take the middle flag with a weak team. It is impossible to defend unless you are holding two other flags at the same time, because the enemy can approach from 3 sides.
I consider spawning at our single CP to move out to be the only mistake you made, E-Male. We did eventually move out successfully as a large mass and take lumberyard, but then nobody defended, and it was game over.Peace through fear... since 1947!
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10-04-2006, 06:12 PM #13
Re: E-Male COing Tonight (Oct 3) -- DeBriefing and Humble Pie Eating
All very good points, icky, except a rather weak claim to cause and effect when you suggest that a CO's decisions in the course of one game "resulted in a server which never saw more than 40 people for the rest of the night."
Without intending to be overly senistive or defensive, this is a highly speculative claim. Let's stick to the facts when doing post-battle debriefing.
That aside, you offered some very helpful suggestions.
E-Male
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10-04-2006, 06:53 PM #14
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Re: E-Male COing Tonight (Oct 3) -- DeBriefing and Humble Pie Eating
The CO decisions have little or nothing to do with affecting the server population, and I didn't suggest that. I'm sorry if it seemed that way. Sometimes one team just happens to be much stronger than the other. The statistics pretty much guarantee it.
I have monitored the population of the server almost every night for the last 14 months or more. I may be speculating, but it is backed by some pretty solid experience.
People make their decision about whether or not to stay on the server based on
1. The quality of the experience they just had
2. The quality of the experience they expect to get on the next map
3. The external factors (tv shows, bed time, etc.)
#2 will often override #3 if the server is full and the previous experience was good.
It is easy to observe that a number of people from both sides leave after a 300 or 400 point crushing (sometimes more leave from the winning side). It is the combination of having a bad experience and not expecting a better experience. When population on the server sinks, #2 becomes less likely, and everyone knows this.
The population dropped from about 45 to about 36 immediately after Fallen. This happened at a time where the population on a Tuesday password night would normally be climbing. For the two maps which followed, the population sat near 40.
This stuff is really quite predictable. I bet I could make a set of graphs of it.Peace through fear... since 1947!
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10-04-2006, 07:34 PM #15
Re: E-Male COing Tonight (Oct 3) -- DeBriefing and Humble Pie Eating
Excellent analysis, Icky -- sorry to have misread your earlier comments.
E-male
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