Welcome to Tactical Gamer

+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 15 of 15
Discussion: Battlefield 2 / Battlefield 2 - Point of Existence Discussion - That last flag you took... - So it took you 10 minutes worth of trying, 3 runs from your main, support
  1. #1

    Lucky Shot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    4,636

    That last flag you took...

    So it took you 10 minutes worth of trying, 3 runs from your main, support from a chopper and coordinating with a second squad to that flag. So now that you have it, why are you in such a rush to abandon it? More often than not, I will be watching my minimap as our team snags that third flag then totally disregards the impact of bleed and immediately moves out on the attack again. Be patient, the enemy WILL move to your flag and then you can punish them the way they did you. In the meantime, by abandoning that flag, your giving the enemy whatever vehicles pop up there as well as allowing them to easily take what took you 10 minutes of trying. The Victory Conditions are simple... Hold 3 flags and you will bleed them. Couple that with the fact that the opponent has to be more aggressive to gain a third flag and you inflict double bleed.

    Lucky Shot

  2.  
  3. #2

    thebleakaffinity's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Boulder, Colorado
    Age
    24
    Posts
    1,133

    Re: That last flag you took...

    Dang, two great threads in a row. You're absolutely right about this one as well, and I don't understand why people think it's fun to rush rush rush without bothering to set up a defense. This isn't a symptom of having more new players on the server, as I see many veterans also doing this. There's really no good reason to have 75% of the team on attack at once when there's bleed, and other than maybe sending a single squad to agitate one of the enemy's two flags occasionally, the vast majority of the team should be focused on holding the flags they've already taken.

  4.  
  5. #3

    [TG] IronClaw's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    115

    Re: That last flag you took...

    Lucky

    Could`nt agree more.I had a super squad on Fallen the other nite and we took trenches and spent just about the whole map defending it.
    It was pretty cool beating back numerous attacks and providing an anchor for attacks on crashsite as well as flank protection after it was taken.
    Like I said though I had a great squad who understood with no turnover.

    IronClaw

  6.  

     
  7. #4

    Backlash-7's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Albuquerque NM
    Age
    39
    Posts
    448

    Re: That last flag you took...

    Indeed! I can recall several times when I'll be in a squad of brothers and watch the mini map as every flag the other squads have taken get taken back. Why? Because 9 times out of 10 that squad will cap a flag and then run off to another one. In the mean time a single enemy strolls up to the now undefended flag and caps it. What this usually causes is a trickle down effect which results in us sitting on the only flag that our side owns. Then 8 other squads spawn in on us and do one of two things. They either take off in a direct line to the nearest flag (and die in droves) or they stand around and try to set up some form of defense (which is now pointless). We end up leaving the flag we held for the entire game to go cap another one.

    I make sure and watch the MM alot when I'm SLing. I'll have my squad take a flag and then dig in for about 3 minutes while I watch what the other squads are doing. It usually takes that long for the enemy to show up if they really want your flag back.







    Quote Originally Posted by E-Male View Post
    I was going to click the heels of my ruby red shoes together and say "I want to go home. I want to go home."

  8.  
  9. #5

    tHa_KhAn's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    The Gunshine State
    Posts
    3,139

    Re: That last flag you took...

    I think the problem is people don't get it that the bleed doesn't increase for more flags. If you hold three you leave the enemy with enough to try to take a third. You can then inflict way more damage as they have to assault. This works great in line abreast flag configs like fallen where you can literally make a wallk of defenders to support the flags. I was on a team a night or two ago and we actually lost despite having bleed most of the time. Problem was the team wouldn't stop assaulting a heavily entrenched enemy. Instead of sitting back and waiting for them to come they just went suicidal into the enemy bases and resulted in a loss that could have easily been avoided. It's just education.

    Odd thing is there are alot of high scores in the flags that defend when they are in a position for the enemy to try and take. Noobs seem to thing rushing is the only way to finish high when it is not.

  10.  
  11. #6


    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    United states, TN
    Age
    39
    Posts
    3,072

    Re: That last flag you took...

    People also forget that if you are defending then you are winning by default. The enemy has to move into an inferior position. The defenders aren't in a hurry, they don't have to get in there and cap a flag. They can select the best postions and make the attackers come to them. Worst case is they have to locate the enemy SL and keep the bad guys from spawning. Personally I prefer to play defense.
    Retired 6th DB

  12.  

     
  13. #7

    Thierry's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Age
    24
    Posts
    870

    Re: That last flag you took...

    I just pretend to run while keeping a nice stack of C4 around the flag, gets them every time.




    BF2 Name: Thez(NL)
    BF2142 Names:
    Thierry(NL) (Sniper)
    Dikkiedik(NL) (Assault)
    Kittekat(NL) (Engineer)
    Dimi(NL) (Support)

  14.  
  15. #8

    ABRA's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    NORTH ATLANTIC (offline)
    Posts
    584

    Re: That last flag you took...

    Well while I do tend to agree and implement a bleed strategy most times I do have to play devil's advocate here for just a tick.

    First while this defensive strategy is the easiest, shortest route to victory, that has never been why I play TG. I play for the tactics. And whether I have bleed or not, I like to employ the most enjoyable tactic(re: coordinated, often sophisticated, always more challenging). When my team secures the third flag, I think about the most fulfilling tactic to contribute to victory even if it is not necessarily the most expedient.

    And for me that means fancy ambushes and defense in depth rather than WWI-era static defense in place. To me, it is like nails on a chalk board to sedentarily watch a vacant front from the flag. It makes zero sense why that uncontested 50 meters should be given to the enemy for free when the defense could be setup there. Then it has somewhere to fallback to if it is overrun, has time to call for reinforcements, etc. etc.

    This is just more fun to me than exploiting the hard-coded and arbitrary advantage of bleed. And more fun than exploiting the fact that this mod simplifies it further by often giving you fewer CPs necessary to inflict bleed and therefore a much easier time defending the bleed-causing territory since it's only 3 CPs. That allows you to occupy all three simultaneously with enough force defend them rather than patrol them like in vanilla. Call me a camper-hater, but damn if this doesn't seem like individual camping of a game engine advantage wrote large on a team-wide level. I mean obviously all you have to do is sit on those three flags to leverage a tremendous advantage over the enemy.

    So my question is if you have a short cut to victory that eliminates the need for enjoyable tactical panache, be it bunny-hopping or totally passive bleed defense, why on earth would you inflict such joyless boredom on yourselves. I realize the raw running and gunning is nearly as good on defense as on offense, but it seems like the bleed advantage lets you be gluttonously lazy in the amount of tactical execution needed to succeed.

    Honestly on a gut level it even seems like bad sportsmanship in a game on the public server seeing how it's not a match in a league. But on a more concrete and articulate level, it seems to fly in the face of why we come to TG. Static defenses were conclusively no longer part of a "near-simulation environment" when the first panzers rolled across Europe. When those same panzers stalled during the Russian 'scorched earth' retreat. When Marines landed at Inchon.

    Remember while winning is our primary goal it is certainly not at the exclusion of much else, least of all tactics. So when ABRA's squad beats you to crash site and promptly rushes off to raise Cain elsewhere, often with less success, let it be said at he and his squad's funeral, that they died tactically :P

    Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine, regardless of the level of advantage, if any, it gives over the opposing team.
    Xbox Live Gamertag: TG ABRA
    live.xbox.com/member/TG ABRA
    Friend me!

  16.  
  17. #9

    Lucky Shot's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    4,636

    Re: That last flag you took...

    I have read through your post a couple times and certainly don't want to put words into your mouth, Abra. But it seems like you are downplaying securing the victory conditions and claiming that ignoring those victory conditions is "tactical." Tonight on Orel, for example, there were times we had 3 flags causing bleed to the enemy. But that wasn't enough. We needed 5 flags and so abandoned the 2 flags (minus the church which my squad held) and went for the other 2 flags. Not only did we lose the 2 flags we had, but we didn't get the other two flags.

    What is gluttonly lazy is the squad that won't do the tough things necessary to secure a win. Like, holding the flag they captured. The squad that won't work within the confines of the team with the end goal in mind, is the one who lacks the discipline to help you succeed. But the lack of defense also leads to LESS of a need to be tactical on offense for the opposing side. Because the defense isn't as tactically sound, the offense doesn't have to be either. So because we accept laziness from SL's on our side, we set the standard that poor tactics will earn you a flag on offense.

    No one said the lines were static and never moving. But if the goal is to win the field, then it's important to fight for what it takes to win and defend it to a man to secure the win. You can be the first to the crash site all you want, but I will be more than happy to secure it with no bloodshed the second you turn to another flag. Just know the next time you come for that flag, it's going to be a bear to get it back.

    Lucky Shot

  18.  

     
  19. #10

    RocketPunch's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    NY, USA
    Posts
    1,120

    Re: That last flag you took...

    Well, Bleed is one of the rules of the the game and I see it as an incentive to A) Sucessfully capturing 60% of the flags on the field and B) Defending it to prevent the enemies from holding 60% of the flags on the field.

    For me the enjoyment lies at tatically acheiving those goals thru action and teamwork.
    Slow is Smooth. Smooth is Fast!

  20.  
  21. #11

    Beatnik's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Age
    36
    Posts
    4,432

    Re: That last flag you took...

    Yeah I wouldn't characterize bleed as arbitrary. Bleed exists to incent defenses in that it gives people a purpose (draining tickets without having to kill anyone) to hold real estate. There are a lot of defenses that aren't necessarily 'holding the line' and are very enjoyable, including what you touched on as being 'off the flag' defenses. An additional advantage of these off the flag defenses is that you can respawn for a secondary defense if you get overpowered on first contact.

    I understand the spirit of the post ABRA but I personally think the tactical environment is much richer with tough defenses dug in at CPs. It's certainly better than watching every squad on the team blindly charging the one remaining flag while the ones behind them quickly fall. It's gotten to the point where if I see that happening with my team, that's my last game on the server that night. It's just too frustrating to play at that point.
    Beatnik

  22.  
  23. #12

    ABRA's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    NORTH ATLANTIC (offline)
    Posts
    584

    Re: That last flag you took...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky Shot View Post
    But the lack of defense also leads to LESS of a need to be tactical on offense for the opposing side. Because the defense isn't as tactically sound, the offense doesn't have to be either. So because we accept laziness from SL's on our side, we set the standard that poor tactics will earn you a flag on offense.
    That's a really good point. And indeed it isn't even a matter of an unsound defense, so much as a lack of defense when squads transition back to offense by leaving abandoning the defense. So even the natural advantages defenders enjoy don't mitigate the effect you describe since they are no longer even poor defenders but rather purely offensive again. Although I did not nor do not suggest that leaving the immediate vicinity of the CP was or is synonymous with abandoning the defense, this is an interesting point nonetheless for when I would push beyond defense onto offense.

    End of the day though, I just wanted to clarify that in the absence of CO orders, SLs are free to pursue victory in whatever manner they see fit (within the rules of the server of course). Lack of discipline among casual public server players adhering to the TG primer in their hopeless offense on the last flag is OK if that is what they enjoy. They are no more beholden to join the other SLs in an ad hoc 3 CP Bleed victory strategy that you are to follow them once more into the breach. Unless someone is COing to that effect of course.

    The victory conditions for your strategy may be simple and effective but on the public server simple and effective are not the goals of everyone nor is the disciplined following of them. Just as I feel lazy sometimmes employing the bleed defense strategy, you consider a lack of disciplined efficiency lazy. But in the absence of a CO, all SLs will have to compromise and enjoy the game in their own ways.

    For the record most of the time I'm right there with you securing one CP and trying to hold it and do my squad's part for the team effort at 3 flags. But sometimes I'm simply in the mood to be free-wheeling offense. In the absence of CO orders, that is a game, a fun, enjoyable game, I will play. Other nights the disciplined defensive machine is fun as well but I think both have a place in making this game enjoyable, if not necessarily both having a place in the most consistently successful winning strategy.

    Weird how this has arrived around at this but I think it's appropriate how point 2 in the Primer ends in "enjoyment" and not victory.

    2) Create an environment where there was mutual respect for your fellow gamers and where all members would be working together to advance the enjoyment of their hobby.
    Perhaps your CP close defense would appreciate my CP forward ambush softening up threats as much as I appreciate you ensuring a place for my ambush to reassemble if we do not meet with success.
    Xbox Live Gamertag: TG ABRA
    live.xbox.com/member/TG ABRA
    Friend me!

  24.  

     
  25. #13

    tHa_KhAn's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    The Gunshine State
    Posts
    3,139

    Re: That last flag you took...

    I think the real problem is SL's not seeing the bigger picture. Digging in in the immediate flag area is boring and not the best way to do it. I try to always pick a spot where the enemy would naturally choose to move to the flag. This spot is usually between either the closest enemy flag or the next closest friendly flag. Then slowly push foward as the enemy is intercepted. often times if the defense is successfull you would have pushed then enemy back their CP and be in position to take the flag. Again, this only works when you can predict the enemies path or you are sure you can return to your original CP if you see it go neutral. Often times being on the outskirts and rushing back catching the enemy trying to cap your flag is like shooting fish in a barrel compared to finding them while moving into the area.

  26.  
  27. #14

    jepzilla's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Canuckistan
    Age
    30
    Posts
    1,233

    Re: That last flag you took...

    Quote Originally Posted by tHa_KhAn View Post
    I think the problem is people don't get it that the bleed doesn't increase for more flags.
    Actually, it does. For example, on Fallen with a 1 flag advantage the bleed is very slow. If you're behind you might need a 2 flag advantage or some very good medics to catch up.

  28.  
  29. #15


    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    3,571

    Re: That last flag you took...

    In some instances, holding 3 good flags may be better than holding 4 crappy ones if one of the flags happenes to be a killfest for the other team, but increased bleed may outweigh the deaths.

  30.  

     

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts


  
 

Back to top