Re: Feedback on the new maps

**FBmantis** · 01-20-2007, 08:11 AM

Red Dawn: (this is mainly just feedback for greasy)

Love all the new statics but I wish there were a few more that were enterable. Specifically I'm not a fan of this major city block feel and yet I have to stay on the street the entire time. Would be nice to travel or setup defenses in the lower parts of these buildings or some new type of building setup. The goal being to make attacks and defense in the heart of the city feel less linear.
Definitely needs bleed. I have an interesting suggestion though. Do bleed as normal but make the Helibase not contribute to bleed. The chopper alone makes its value very high but not having this flag count toward bleed would make the rest of the map just as important and give the team without the chopper a decent chance to win without having to throw their whole team at the Helibase to try to retake it. For example the team without the chopper flag could just hold three of the other 5 flags and get bleed on the enemy. The chopper would likely do a good job of negating the bleed itself.
I think the chopper is fine if we get a couple stationary AA emplacements and/or pickups scattered through the map. The Shilkas and Gepards are awesome(and currently not used for their intended purpose enough) but at some flags not near these assets you can get slaughtered over and over with no way to counter the chopper. Overall I think the chopper looks really cool in the city setting but it needs some more counters to lessen its impact some.
The curbs are definitely annoying. I believe I read elsewhere that this has already been fixed in the current internal version for the devs.
Some of the textures are pretty ugly to look at. I realize the environment the map is going for but damn I hope the ones in the city streets(specifically the main white one) get a rework.
Please make sure that that buildings with ladders to the roofs are kept to a minimum. If someone gets the bright idea that every building should have a ladder then the map will turn into a snipefest.
Those new three story statics near the Construction Site are such a tease! I want to be able to get into the bottom floor and work my way up. It would be awesome to try to hunt down a SL in those structures.
There is a nasty bug by the Garbage dump. If you try to enter the flag compound from the south side at the gate with an APC you have the potential of spontaneously combusting if you manuever too close to the western side of that entrance. Its like you get caught in the western building of that entrance and if you continue to move you just blow up. Try it.
Would be nice if the Garbage jump had an extra building or two for infantry to hide in since its so close to the helibase.

**BaneII** · 01-20-2007, 04:34 PM

Berezne

Best of the bunch. Nice varied environment with enough space to maneuver across the map and have fights between flags. Just enough vehicles to make it a well rounded map.

Woodland

Seems like Fallen with hills. Again, nice environment with space to maneuver and fight. With the varied height, the support weapon is no longer stuck trying to shoot through grass all the time like on Fallen. Another plus is the inclusion of the AP kit.

Stormfront

Exclusion of vehicles, closeness of flags, and lack of cover turns this map into a snipefest. Smallness of map gives no room for infantry to maneuver.

Operation Acorn

This map devolves into a fight over the Quarry due to it's bleed value making the rest of the map irrelevant. Lack of armor, small flag capture radius, and limited accesses to Quarry turns it into a killzone for the attackers. A helo insertion would give attackers the best chance of capture, but the placement of the sole helipad in the Quarry itself quashes that tactic.

Red Dawn

Inclusion of one attack chopper with limited AA turns the map into a blowout with a competent chopper pilot. The various short obstacles which the infantry get stuck on interrupts the flow and necessitates an increase rate of jumping.

While I do admit the maps look nice, the gameplay is what counts. And 60% of the maps dont support quality gameplay. I'm looking forward to playing the vanilla maps within the POE2 mod to see how that changes the gameplay.

**WhiskeySix** · 01-22-2007, 02:05 PM

This isn't exclusive to the new maps, but I'd generally like to see CO be able to drop smoke (via arty) on more of the maps!

**Dali** · 01-23-2007, 05:02 AM

In case you havn't noticed, there is a bugged spawn at the Watermill flag on Berezne where you get spawned stuck in some boxes. There is a work around though. I have found that if you go prone you will get free every time.

I have corrected this bug in my current build, but we'll have to live with it until when/if an updated version is released.

**Feenicks** · 01-28-2007, 12:24 AM

Hi all.

Im Feenicks the designer of Operation Acorn and last night was my first chance to actually play a live game of the map. Alas i was off on a two week family holiday on the day of the mappack release and had only miniscule net access for the duration.

Anyway, ingame last night i was directed to this forum and thread and cannot say how glad i am to find the feedback on the map here.

It's my understanding that i have time to make changes to the map before its inclusion in the next POE patch/release, as such i'm keen to get as much feedback as possible and include that in the update to get the best gameplay possible.

It seems the main issue is the bleed, and the too much importance placed on the quarry flag.
So i guess the main concern is finding the best way to fix it so that the rest of the map doesnt become irrelevant.

Probably a change in the bleed values alone will help, but im happy to discuss that further...

first tho, i'd like to address some of the feedback point by point that i can see.

[TOC]Floyd :

One thing that did seem a little annoying is the AA gun at the south-eastern flag. On several occasions I was mowed down after I spawned in as infantry by an enemy that had hopped in the AA. Maybe it should be moved to the other side of the buildings, or the barricades around it should be built up higher to keep it from being used as an anti-personell weapon. Just a thought.

Do people find this to be severe problem? I had partly intended this AA to be able to be turned against infantry should the need arise... however not for spawn camping purposes. I can get some extra barriers in place here or even make the spawn spots a bit more covered etc...? or of course move the AA, build up the barricades etc.

ANGELofDEATH:

Acorn, I really like this map, layout is great.. but I do have issues with the lighting.. :/

The lighting? This issues with the lightmaps? Ive noticed that the gas station hasnt lightmapped out properly. is that the kind of thing you mean? or a more overall lighting issue? I never did get the chance to run high quality lightmaps, only medium. Hopefully for the next version high qualities can be run.

Wimpinator:

Acorn: Hate it. My main gripe is there is a flag VERY close to the Ukraine UCB. This leads to inevitable firefights between the UCB and flag. The bridge leading out of the UCB also seems to invite enemy armor to roll onto the bridge. This map is just not set up for TG.

Hmmm, this the village flag?
Is the main problem here perhaps that the only way out of the UKR UCB is the bridge? meaning the UKR can get locked in there a bit? Do other people share this concern? Im not sure why the proximity itself is a problem, other than that the bridge could be a bit to chokey for the ukrs if they are otherwise capped out? Perhaps some other exits/river crossings for the ukr team could be in order as a way to alleviate this?

ThePenguineer :

Hehe. I was leading with Wimp in my squad when we got pinned in at our UCB. I didn't know what to do, as they kept bringing their armor right up on to the bridge and would wait for us to shoot at them so they could return fire. Kind of annoying when you're standing in your UCB staring at the enemy only 30m away knowing that once you point anything in their direction you're gonna get fired on.

see above... perhaps also some better cover around that base? and some AT pickups as well as alternate exits & river crossings?

Lucky Shot:

Operation Acorn stresses my computer at the large hill [...]

This was always my biggest worry while making it. In the end i actually stripped back that hill quite a lot. The bulk of the hill equates to about fallen levels of forest and undergrowth. However the borders of the hill are a bit denser so as to prevent making it too easy to drive in. Perhaps i can look at removing a few more trees from those border areas...?

okay, now that those are out of the way... it seems the main issue is the bleed associated with the quarry.

feedback on this issue seems pretty resounding:

Santa:

5) Acorn. Ugh, this map had a lot of potential. First of all, the decision to make the Quarry the only meaningful flag was not a good move. Apparently if one team has the quarry, it is impossible for them to bleed even if the enemy has all other flags. So all you should do is completely ignore the entire map--which is the best part of the map--and send all of your men to the Quarry. Upon capping, send maybe 12 guys out to cap another flag, and there you have a win. Since the quarry is the most important, its worth talking about. The road into Quarry is a ridiculous chokepoint. The actual quarry itself is entirely too wide open to have a fun fight in as well. What could have helped this map was to center the attention around Forest Hill much like Lumbermill was to Carpathian or Town to Highway To Hell. Also, the Quarry should have been less wide open, more trees around the perimeter that are accessible from all directions, and have that road at least 4 times as wide with a ton of cover all the way up to the flag.

Sawviper:

On Acorn I think a adjustment to the bleed ratio would fix that map.

Santa:

Acorn would still be a bad map in my opinion, but adjusting it so that each flag effected bleed equally would go a long way to making that map bearable. I guess they were going for an objective based map, but thats just not how BF2 works. The only way that would work for Quarry is if the flag cap radius was humongous.

Lucky Shot:

Operation Acorn stresses my computer at the large hill and the bleed is determined by who holds 1 flag. Why is that flag worth so much more, doesn't the worth of having a transport chopper (The German one with Missles) make that flag worth having? This map needs some adjustment although if they put 3 flags within the quarry area itself, I think that would make it worthwhile.

BaneII:

Operation Acorn
This map devolves into a fight over the Quarry due to it's bleed value making the rest of the map irrelevant. Lack of armor, small flag capture radius, and limited accesses to Quarry turns it into a killzone for the attackers. A helo insertion would give attackers the best chance of capture, but the placement of the sole helipad in the Quarry itself quashes that tactic.

So... how best to fix.

At this stage i dont think i'd be inclined to look at changing things like the overall width of the quarry or the main road in. But, maybe some extra cover within the quarry that reduces the overall open space in there, and a big of an enlargement of the cap radius might be in order.
The main fix would of course be to make it not so weighted tho.

When i came up with the map idea, the main inspiration was a hard to access quarry. I guess i concentrated too much on that fact as when i was doing things like the flag bleed ratios i was thinking to myself... 'i want people to be fighting over the quarry'
However, it seems in practical gameplay terms, this is not the best option for a playable map. So i think we will definitely need to readdress this.

At the moment, the ratios etc are as thus:

64 player
The Quarry is worth 80pts, the remaining cappable flags are worth 20 each. So to get bleed you must hold the Quarry and 1 other flag (aside from the uncappables which are worth 0)

32 player
The Quarry is worth 60pts, the remaining cappable flags are worth 20 each. So to get bleed you must hold the Quarry and 2 other flags (aside from the uncappables which are worth 0)

16 player
The Quarry is worth 50pts, the Farm and Gas Station worth 25 each. Hill Forest is worth 30. The two new Enrtance and Rocky Hollow flags are worth 10 each. As such there are a number of combos to acheive bleed. The uncaps are gone.

So new ratios could be

64 player:

uncaps: 0
Quarry: 40
Forest Hill: 40
Farm: 20
Village: 20

so for bleed you would need Quarry AND Hill PLUS another flag.

32 player:

uncaps: 0
Quarry: 35
Forest Hill: 35
Farm: 25
Village: 25
Roadblock: 15

So there are a number of bleed combos
All except Forest Hill. Or All except Quarry.
etc...

16 player:

uncaps: 0
Quarry: 30
Forest Hill: 30
Farm: 25
Gas Station: 25
Rocky Hollow: 10
Entrance: 10

Again a number of combos...

I had some other combos of ratios as options, but im open to suggestions of what other people think.

I can always add more flags if people think that's also a good option.

Additionally i was thinking the Village on 64 and 32 players modes should be made longer to capture so that it is harder to change from Ukraine to German hands, thus making it a little less likely that the UKRs will get trapped in their uncap base...

Anyway, i'd love to get as much feedback and suggestions as possible.

thanks in advance

feen

**ANGELofDEATH** · 01-28-2007, 03:06 AM

Originally Posted by Feenicks

Hi all.
.
........
.
ANGELofDEATH:
The lighting? This issues with the lightmaps? Ive noticed that the gas station hasnt lightmapped out properly. is that the kind of thing you mean? or a more overall lighting issue? I never did get the chance to run high quality lightmaps, only medium. Hopefully for the next version high qualities can be run.
feen

First off, Welcome to the TG.. Nice map, If you do fix the bleed and add some cover to the quarry, it will be better... My issue with the lighting is that I see the enemy as if they are glowing... the background is darker than the soldiers, so I can see them from WAY out.... Maybe it is just me, I have never seen it on any other map... I have heard the same complaint from one other player in game, Yet, it might be our video settings... Maybe others can chime in here if they see the same problem.

I will try and post a screenshot if I can get one.

**Santa** · 01-28-2007, 03:53 AM

Making forest hill and quarry equal in bleed will help a lot. And if those flags are split between the two teams, it means fighting will be at a third flag. Good stuff.

**thebleakaffinity** · 01-28-2007, 05:07 AM

I have to say, I've had pretty much nothing but negative experiences with the vanilla maps so far. There are some obvious issues where the map design was not properly customized. For example, the AA gun at Factory on Zataar Wetlands is completely unreachable as far as I know, making that flag totally vulnerable against air. Mashtuur city is just 50cal haven, and since you can't shoot the gunner out with conventional weapons there's really not a lot infantry can do. There are also many more tall buildings on Vanilla maps than there were on POE maps, and since there's no artillery to clear the buildings out a squad can stay up on them pretty indefinitely, as was seen on the Jalalabad Hotel. Overall I just don't think enough thought was put into the conversions to make these worth playing.

**FBmantis** · 01-28-2007, 07:40 AM

Hey feenicks. Glad ya found your way here. I said I would try to give some extensive feedback when ya showed up so here we go:

Thoughts on bleed: I'm not a fan of flags with higher bleed. Making the Forest Hill similarly more important would help a bit but in the end any good team would just ignore the other two flags and push everyone at those two flags. It creates a predictable game flow every round and in the end you have to go with the flow because its the only way to win. I think what works better is to pump up flag value with asset spawners. The chopper is definitely a good incentive.

Have you ever thought about removing the higher bleed factor but adding another flag at the Quarry? The quarry would need somewhat of a rework but Near the AA emplacement would be a solid location. This would concentrate fighting around the Quarry like you want. Most likely this two flag setup would create a constant battle around that area as most likely one team will not hold both flags all the time. Troops would be flowing from the flags and battling constantly. This would give ya a heavy troop concentration around the Quarry like I think you wanted but the rest of the map would be just as important since the flag bleed values would be even.

The quarry would need a little rework with that setup if you did a flag by the AA emplacement. I would move the inner flag to the west side of the Quarry so the flags aren't too close and redo the cover setup to reflect that. Something like this appears good on paper. Red box = new helipad, Yellow boxes = new flag locations , Green boxes = some type of cover. Flag capture radius should of course have similar cover to how you have it now. In particular I think it would be cool if you could see the AA flag being raised from the road outside the Quarry. Maybe see some bodies go flying off the Quarry onto the road through blasts from C4 on the flag.

UKR UCB proximity to Village: This is defintely an issue imo. Partly due to the proximity but also due to their being only one way out of the UCB(bridge). I would suggest these changes as seen in this horrible MS paint image:

Move the UCB back a bit as seen by the yellow box. This would discourage any thoughts of firing at infantry/vehicles from the village side of the river right when they start to leave.
Connect that road that ends out of nowhere behind the village to the UKR UCB road through a land bridge. (see red line) This would open up assaults on the Village to occur from both directions. As it is right now everything East of the Village rarely even gets looked at. The bridge will still be important since its access to the main road that bypasses the village...however the land bridge would at least give the UKR team another option of getting out of the UCB.
Moving the UCB back would also allow infantry to swim across to the Quarry without having to fight their way fully through the Village defenders.

Lighting Issues: There is a lot of light issues on the map when I play but I'm gonna assume this will get cleaned up since the map will be seeing an official release in the mod. AngelofDeaths reply describes what I've been seeing with the player models. There is also a lot of areas that need some work...particularly around the Village. Like I said though I'm sure all this will get cleaned up since your going to see an official release.

Forest Hill: I'm always a fan of king of the hill style setups but I think what is missing with this flag area currently is any sense of strategic infantry battles occuring off the flag on the approaches. Currently the forest is just too thick and terrain too steep in a lot of places. Basically the gameplay at this flag is just pure deathmatch as an enemy squad can just sneak in easily close to the flag and then all hell breaks loose. Whats missing is any sense of defensive capability when you are king of the hill. I think what would work better is more of a mound feel(give the top part where the flag is a tad more space) and make the inclination more gradual. Then combined with a slight forest reduction create terrain/rocks/vegetation in a style that makes for tactical movement. Look at this image from the WIP poe map called 'Hill' for somewhat of an idea for what I'm suggesting. Ignore the fact that your not looking at a forest. Mainly from this image I'm looking to highlight the rate of inclination, the use of the occasional rocks to hide behind as you work up the hill, and the smooth but varying terrain. In your map though this would be a decent forest. The goals being:

Make this flag tough to take. Right now your not king of the hill...your a sitting duck waiting to be ambushed while on defense. This is caused by the heavy forest that negates incoming visibility and the minimal hill top that allows for minimal setup on top.
Encourage squad on squad battles on the inclines. It would be a blast to slowly push your way up the hill as an attacking squad as you move from one tree/boulder/terrain change to another.

**Greasy Mullet** · 01-28-2007, 03:52 PM

Thats some very good feedback there. I agree with the points mentioned.

**ANGELofDEATH** · 01-29-2007, 12:46 AM

Here is a perfect example of the lighting I see on acorn.

I thought I caught PJ standing, it would have shown his glow in the dark uniform.. The enemy looks the same, yet, I was to busy shooting at them on the ridge to take a shot

**Lucky Shot** · 01-29-2007, 12:54 AM

We put the map into a prime time slot tonight so that the map would be fresh in everyone's mind. Feenicks did get a chance to play it with a full 62 players on the map. What were your thoughts, good and bad. Keep it specific.

Lucky Shot

**Snail88** · 01-29-2007, 10:17 AM

i personally love the maps on a design standpoint. Its one of the only maps i dont mind just walking to my destination just to look at stuff. My only beef with it is, like everyone said, the quarry flag. Right now it seems all the other flags are inconsequential and everyone just fights over the quarry. Whats the point of the other flags when quarry is so important?

I agree what mantis said - lower the bleed ratio (what was suggested sounds good) and give assets at each flag warranting taking them. Maybe more pick up kits, AA, whatev. Overall i think this map would be 100 times better just by changing those 2 things.

**Feenicks** · 01-29-2007, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by Lucky Shot

We put the map into a prime time slot tonight so that the map would be fresh in everyone's mind. Feenicks did get a chance to play it with a full 62 players on the map. What were your thoughts, good and bad. Keep it specific.

Lucky Shot

thanks so much for doing that! It was my first time playing with a full server. (and only the 2nd time playing a live match on it)

I see the lighting issue with the player models. I dunno what the hell the deal is with that or what causes it!? but i'll see what i can find out.

thanks for the feedback ive gotten so far, here, in pms and ingame. Any more ideas and comments are greatly appreciated but im thinking at this stage going for standard bleed ratios so all/most flags are of equal value and adding a few more flags perhaps to 64 player mode as well as moving back and opening up the ukr uncappable. I myself experienced trouble getting out of there while the enemy had control of village so can see that for sure.

Im also wondering what people think about adding some more vehicles/apc/armour/assets to the 64 player mode.

32 player mode has a tank, an arty and an aa vehicle. 64 currently only has jeeps, heavy jeeps and an apc aside - thoughts?
I wouldnt want to make it much tho. like 2 tanks and 2-4 apcs?

I'd post some pics, but i need to get up to 12 or so posts here before i can it seems.

**WhiskeySix** · 01-29-2007, 09:47 PM

Regarding increasing the number of flags: I think 5-6 has turned out to be just about perfect. The main reason is that once bleed is established, your team should generally go on defense and hold those flags. BUT, if you've got too many flags, then you just don't have enough squads to defend them all and the match just turns into wack-a-mole with the flags...

There's a lot of this flag-hopping that happens on Woodland because, IMO there are just too many flags on the 64P version.

Also - Based on how things have been playing out (on our server anyway), I think it might be good to have a 16p version of the map w/ 3 capturable flags.... but consider making both the 32 and 62 player versions 5-flag maps, but just with different mix of flags.... basically an A and B version of the map to keep things fresh. Some flags might be shared between the two maps, but others would be unique to each map. (maybe for the 64p version, you could have one flag worth more points - since there would be more players to attack/defend that flag.)

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