Spawn Camping

**ProjectNA** · 02-27-2007, 10:54 PM

Another Dr. Phil moment:

I was playing Carpathian Mountains last night, on Thundeers squad I think. We were holding East Cabin, and not much was happening, so we started working our way towards North Cabin. I think 33rd was holding it (well). Just east of North Cabin is a patch of trees, and I was first up. I noticed another squad approaching from the west, so figured this was our chance to add another flag. I was sniping, and stood behind a tree and started taking people out.

I saw a comment scroll by something akin to "are you enjoying spawn camping". I don't even know if it was directed at me, but it made me wonder what the definition of spawn camping is. It hit me later on when I was approaching Lumber Mill from the northeast towards the end of the round. There were at least 10 people standing up on the ridge of lumbermill (I was at the base of the east to northeast hill looking up), and again, I started shooting (because that is what guns are for). As a sniper, which I play exclusively on some maps, there isn't much chance of taking a flag alone with at least one squad on it by myself, so I will snipe until the squad catches up, and during their take of the flag, watching the periphery while they cap (because that is what snipers do). I am assuming if someone just sits there killing people, with no *intention* of taking the flag, with no-one else coming up to support the cap, that that would be spawn camping.

**asch** · 02-27-2007, 11:13 PM

Server Rules

Quote:

"Spawn camping" requires a certain INTENT. To spawn camp, it must be your INTENT to EXPLOIT a player's post-spawn lack of orientation while attacking that player. You are sitting (camp), waiting to attack a player immediately after he enters gameplay (spawn). This is spawn camping, and it is not allowed on Tactical Gamer's BF2 server.

icky · 02-27-2007, 11:32 PM

Hey look, another thread about ME! LOL

We spent about 20 minutes defending North Cabin against multiple pieces of armor and infantry (mostly snipers), and nobody from the other team, which was in dominant position on the whole map, made a move to take the control point. The only thing the infantry did was stay back with the armor and prevent us from getting shots at it.

What you saw there is spawn camping.

The comment was aimed mainly at the armor, since they were the ones firing blindly at the spawn points, but the infantry should be moving in under those circumstances and capturing the flag instead of milking their advantageous position.

In retrospect, I should have enforced the rules with warnings and kicks.

**[tR]Greasy_mullet** · 02-27-2007, 11:46 PM

Its a fine line I think. I will often give supressive fire into a base so that my team can move in and take it. I have been told at times that would be considered spawn camping but my goal is not easy points but rather to make the defenders spawn someplace else and have my team take the flag.

**Tempus** · 02-27-2007, 11:55 PM

Indeed, generally speaking, spawn camping only applies to UCBs, unless the 'camper' is simply racking up kills with no other purpose. On a contested flag, any encountered enemy is considered fair game.

**WhiskeySix** · 02-28-2007, 12:30 AM

Wow, lots of rules questions this week

I have to agree w/ mullet on this one... I don't consider armor firing into a flag spawn camping. It's certainly "camping", but not "spawn camping". I mean - how is it really any different from artillery raining shells into a CP from across the map or an aircraft blindly carpet bombing a flag? While incredibly annoying if you're the one getting shelled, I don't see how it violates any rules...

To me spawn camping is when you know EXACTLY where a spawn point is and sit there with your gun pointed EXACTLY where the person's head will magically appear. As soon as they spawn, <BANG>... you pull the trigger before the person even makes a move. You're totally relying on them not knowing what's going on.... Whereas when firing HEAP rounds at/into a building, you're not necessarily relying on that post-spawn disorientation... You're just hoping people foolishly keep hanging around the building...

This used to come up a lot back in the vBF2 helo battles... We always had to judge when it was ok to reengage a helo that just respawned at the UCB. Generally, the helo would lift off a bit, and then start flying in a direction... Once it was clear that the pilot was fully in control and had "gone active" (started seeking a target or traveling somewhere), they were fair game and it was TV missiles away. I always considered it to be similar to how NFL referees determine whether a dropped pass is a fumble or incompletion: If the receiver drops the ball after "making a football move", it's a fumble. If he doesn't "make a football move" after catching the ball, it's just an incomplete pass. Same here - once the pilot "made a BF2 move", it was open season...

icky · 02-28-2007, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiskeySix

To me spawn camping is when you know EXACTLY where a spawn point is and sit there with your gun pointed EXACTLY where the person's head will magically appear. As soon as they spawn, <BANG>... you pull the trigger before the person even makes a move. You're totally relying on them not knowing what's going on.... Whereas when firing HEAP rounds at/into a building, you're not necessarily relying on that post-spawn disorientation... You're just hoping people foolishly keep hanging around the building...

If you are firing into an area where people spawn with a weapon that has an area of damage, you are camping the spawn. You don't have to know EXACTLY where they are going to spawn. You are going to kill people who have no chance to move. If someone spawns in front of you as you move toward a flag to capture it, you are not camping the spawn. If you make no attempt to capture the flag, then you should pack some marshmallows, because you ARE camping.

As others said, it IS a fine line, but honestly, if you can't run over the defenders with 2 pieces of armor and 2 squads, then you aren't trying. And if you aren't trying, then you are camping.

And as for artillery or bombers, they are completely different beasts. I don't expect either one of them to move in and capture the flag.

BaneII · 02-28-2007, 01:35 AM

There are times where I want my sqaud to attack a flag but not capture it. My goal is to keep the enemy contained inside the base. Just because I attack an area that has a capturable flag, it does not mean my objective is to capture the flag. I would not define this camping. I think Whiskey's definition of waiting for someone to appear at the spawn point is more in line when referring to a capturable flag.

**WhiskeySix** · 02-28-2007, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icky

If you are firing into an area where people spawn with a weapon that has an area of damage, you are camping the spawn.

I disagree... I think you're interpreting the phrase "spawn camping" way to generally. Just because you have a flag under seige doesn't mean you're camping spawn points. On the Karkand, isn't it ok to rain hell into Train Accident from across the river even when there's no attempt to capture it? It's about intent... You're trying to kill people you see or otherwise know are there, not trying to time your tank-round so it impacts just as someone spawns...

Quote:

Originally Posted by icky

If you make no attempt to capture the flag, then you should pack some marshmallows, because you ARE camping.

Right, but that's not against the rules is it? A squad doesn't have to try capturing the flag... If you've got bleed already, it seems a valid tactic to just try reaping as many kills as possible...

Anyway, whatever the Rule is or whatever you call it... being camped blows

Evo<^|SiNz|^> · 02-28-2007, 09:00 AM

If I'm on the receiving end of this, I usually try to save my temper after three or four deaths by ordering my squad to spawn elsewhere and go on the offensive on another flag.

It's not a rule, but if it's the last flag you can spawn at, it's usually gentlemanly for the other team to back off a bit. A TG commander will usually order that.

cptCuervo · 02-28-2007, 10:57 AM

Is it really spawn camping if the enemy has another place to spawn (another CP or UCB)?

If a flag is difficult to take, then the attackers will dig in and give them hell... that may mean lots of deaths on the defender's part. However, if this is occurring, then shouldn't the defender's wise up and realize that the CP is lost?

I understand that sitting back in a Tank or APC pounding a flag with no intention of taking said flag, is definitely one of those situations that should not be tolerated... However, if the attackers are using the armor to suppress the enemy while infantry is actually "trying" to advance (whether successful or not), then this is a smart use of the armor assets.

Correct me if I am wrong, but if you can't spawn in at a CP, then spawn somewhere else. If the attackers are truly not going to take the flag, then come up behind them and C4 the Smacktards!

just my 2c

**Steiner** · 02-28-2007, 11:02 AM

I am with Greasy and Whiskey on this one. I would also say that if a player is killing people that are spawning at a flag, but are showing no intention or will of capturing the flag i.e. a sniper laying +100 meters away, or an MG doing the same from a range so do I consider that spawn-camping. The ridge overlooking the cabin is an excellent example. Still, if a squad is using the ridge as a way of attack and will start to engage the defenders at the cabin from the ridge prior to moving down, then its a different matter.

How ever, if armour or such are laying down a supressive fire on a flag (lets use the North cabin as an example since it is commonly seen there) and are firing round after round in to the area around the cabin in order to soften [kill] up any enemy defences prior to the armour itself move in, or for when the infantry move in.

Given that certain flags are well suited for defence so is it only natural that any attackers will try to drive away / kill the other side holding the flag by simply placing as much junk into the target. It makes perfect sense, and I also hope that this post do.

James315 · 02-28-2007, 12:00 PM

I was one of the people getting endlessly shot up at the North Cabin on the night in question, and it was a bit frustrating. Actually I'm not sure why we didn't knock out the armor sooner, since it was not far away, but perhaps he had good engineers.

Anyways, from a tactical and realism standpoint it makes no sense for the APC to roll up right onto the flagpole--he's throwing away his long-range accuracy advantage and putting himself in a ridiculously vulnerable position. The APC should lay down cover fire, while his infantry take the flag.

But as far as having everyone stay behind and spawn camp so as to encourage defenders to spawn at a different flag, well...that's spawn camping, and against the rules. Just think about the logic of it: yeah, no one's forcing me to spawn in at that control point, I could go elsewhere, but the only reason I'd do that is because I'm being killed while post-spawn disoriented.

**[tR]Greasy_mullet** · 02-28-2007, 01:05 PM

Let me also point out that in PoE maps, we tried to have 8-10 possible player spawn spots to reduce the possiblity that you will die on spawning. Some maps and situations are harder than others to get that many in, but we have tried hard to do so.

And personally if I spawn and die after a couple times then that tells me that flag is lost. If it is not our last flag then I will try and spawn someplace else close and counter them.

BaneII · 02-28-2007, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [tR]Greasy_mullet

And personally if I spawn and die after a couple times then that tells me that flag is lost. If it is not our last flag then I will try and spawn someplace else close and counter them.

Exactly. 'Nuff said.

02-27-2007, 10:54 PM	#1 (permalink)
ProjectNA Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Hotlanta Age: 39 Posts: 953	Spawn Camping Another Dr. Phil moment: I was playing Carpathian Mountains last night, on Thundeers squad I think. We were holding East Cabin, and not much was happening, so we started working our way towards North Cabin. I think 33rd was holding it (well). Just east of North Cabin is a patch of trees, and I was first up. I noticed another squad approaching from the west, so figured this was our chance to add another flag. I was sniping, and stood behind a tree and started taking people out. I saw a comment scroll by something akin to "are you enjoying spawn camping". I don't even know if it was directed at me, but it made me wonder what the definition of spawn camping is. It hit me later on when I was approaching Lumber Mill from the northeast towards the end of the round. There were at least 10 people standing up on the ridge of lumbermill (I was at the base of the east to northeast hill looking up), and again, I started shooting (because that is what guns are for). As a sniper, which I play exclusively on some maps, there isn't much chance of taking a flag alone with at least one squad on it by myself, so I will snipe until the squad catches up, and during their take of the flag, watching the periphery while they cap (because that is what snipers do). I am assuming if someone just sits there killing people, with no intention of taking the flag, with no-one else coming up to support the cap, that that would be spawn camping.

02-27-2007, 11:32 PM	#3 (permalink)
icky Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ottawa Valley Posts: 6,154	Re: Spawn Camping Hey look, another thread about ME! LOL We spent about 20 minutes defending North Cabin against multiple pieces of armor and infantry (mostly snipers), and nobody from the other team, which was in dominant position on the whole map, made a move to take the control point. The only thing the infantry did was stay back with the armor and prevent us from getting shots at it. What you saw there is spawn camping. The comment was aimed mainly at the armor, since they were the ones firing blindly at the spawn points, but the infantry should be moving in under those circumstances and capturing the flag instead of milking their advantageous position. In retrospect, I should have enforced the rules with warnings and kicks. __________________ Peace through fear... since 1947!

02-27-2007, 11:46 PM	#4 (permalink)
[tR]Greasy_mullet Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Tennessee Age: 30 Posts: 713	Re: Spawn Camping Its a fine line I think. I will often give supressive fire into a base so that my team can move in and take it. I have been told at times that would be considered spawn camping but my goal is not easy points but rather to make the defenders spawn someplace else and have my team take the flag.

02-27-2007, 11:55 PM	#5 (permalink)
Tempus Join Date: May 2003 Location: Miami, FL Age: 38 Posts: 8,252	Re: Spawn Camping Indeed, generally speaking, spawn camping only applies to UCBs, unless the 'camper' is simply racking up kills with no other purpose. On a contested flag, any encountered enemy is considered fair game. __________________ Battlefield 2/2142 Game Officer Contact me with server/player/admin issues. -- Suits are what you wear when doing things you shouldn’t want to do anyway. FROM THE TACTICAL GAMER PRIMER. 3) Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine.

02-28-2007, 12:30 AM	#6 (permalink)
WhiskeySix Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Gillette Stadium, Section 309, Row 12, Seat 24 Age: 33 Posts: 8,513	Re: Spawn Camping Wow, lots of rules questions this week I have to agree w/ mullet on this one... I don't consider armor firing into a flag spawn camping. It's certainly "camping", but not "spawn camping". I mean - how is it really any different from artillery raining shells into a CP from across the map or an aircraft blindly carpet bombing a flag? While incredibly annoying if you're the one getting shelled, I don't see how it violates any rules... To me spawn camping is when you know EXACTLY where a spawn point is and sit there with your gun pointed EXACTLY where the person's head will magically appear. As soon as they spawn, <BANG>... you pull the trigger before the person even makes a move. You're totally relying on them not knowing what's going on.... Whereas when firing HEAP rounds at/into a building, you're not necessarily relying on that post-spawn disorientation... You're just hoping people foolishly keep hanging around the building... This used to come up a lot back in the vBF2 helo battles... We always had to judge when it was ok to reengage a helo that just respawned at the UCB. Generally, the helo would lift off a bit, and then start flying in a direction... Once it was clear that the pilot was fully in control and had "gone active" (started seeking a target or traveling somewhere), they were fair game and it was TV missiles away. I always considered it to be similar to how NFL referees determine whether a dropped pass is a fumble or incompletion: If the receiver drops the ball after "making a football move", it's a fumble. If he doesn't "make a football move" after catching the ball, it's just an incomplete pass. Same here - once the pilot "made a BF2 move", it was open season... __________________ *PoE2 Version 2.5 Overview \| Get started with PoE2 (for free!)*

02-28-2007, 01:35 AM	#8 (permalink)
BaneII Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 2,424	Re: Spawn Camping There are times where I want my sqaud to attack a flag but not capture it. My goal is to keep the enemy contained inside the base. Just because I attack an area that has a capturable flag, it does not mean my objective is to capture the flag. I would not define this camping. I think Whiskey's definition of waiting for someone to appear at the spawn point is more in line when referring to a capturable flag. __________________ -33rd- BaneII Smokers & Jokers

02-28-2007, 09:00 AM	#10 (permalink)
Evo<^\|SiNz\|^> Join Date: May 2006 Location: Alexandria, VA Age: 28 Posts: 1,236	Re: Spawn Camping If I'm on the receiving end of this, I usually try to save my temper after three or four deaths by ordering my squad to spawn elsewhere and go on the offensive on another flag. It's not a rule, but if it's the last flag you can spawn at, it's usually gentlemanly for the other team to back off a bit. A TG commander will usually order that. __________________ "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." - Attributed to General George Patton, Jr.

02-28-2007, 10:57 AM	#11 (permalink)
cptCuervo Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 321	Re: Spawn Camping Is it really spawn camping if the enemy has another place to spawn (another CP or UCB)? If a flag is difficult to take, then the attackers will dig in and give them hell... that may mean lots of deaths on the defender's part. However, if this is occurring, then shouldn't the defender's wise up and realize that the CP is lost? I understand that sitting back in a Tank or APC pounding a flag with no intention of taking said flag, is definitely one of those situations that should not be tolerated... However, if the attackers are using the armor to suppress the enemy while infantry is actually "trying" to advance (whether successful or not), then this is a smart use of the armor assets. Correct me if I am wrong, but if you can't spawn in at a CP, then spawn somewhere else. If the attackers are truly not going to take the flag, then come up behind them and C4 the Smacktards! just my 2c

02-28-2007, 11:02 AM	#12 (permalink)
Steiner Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Age: 29 Posts: 686	Re: Spawn Camping I am with Greasy and Whiskey on this one. I would also say that if a player is killing people that are spawning at a flag, but are showing no intention or will of capturing the flag i.e. a sniper laying +100 meters away, or an MG doing the same from a range so do I consider that spawn-camping. The ridge overlooking the cabin is an excellent example. Still, if a squad is using the ridge as a way of attack and will start to engage the defenders at the cabin from the ridge prior to moving down, then its a different matter. How ever, if armour or such are laying down a supressive fire on a flag (lets use the North cabin as an example since it is commonly seen there) and are firing round after round in to the area around the cabin in order to soften [kill] up any enemy defences prior to the armour itself move in, or for when the infantry move in. Given that certain flags are well suited for defence so is it only natural that any attackers will try to drive away / kill the other side holding the flag by simply placing as much junk into the target. It makes perfect sense, and I also hope that this post do. __________________ \|TG-6th\|Steiner Can't work out how to have several different images [such as banners and ribbons] in the signature, so I will drop that project for now... Caesar counted on his veteran Gaul legions. Napoleon had his Old Guard. Queen Victoria was well served by the Cold Stream Guards. Tactical Gamer can always rely on the 6th Devil's Brigade. "-He has a wife, you know. Do you know what she's called? 'Incontinentia'... Incontinentia Buttocks."

02-28-2007, 12:00 PM	#13 (permalink)
James315 Join Date: Aug 2005 Age: 26 Posts: 673	Re: Spawn Camping I was one of the people getting endlessly shot up at the North Cabin on the night in question, and it was a bit frustrating. Actually I'm not sure why we didn't knock out the armor sooner, since it was not far away, but perhaps he had good engineers. Anyways, from a tactical and realism standpoint it makes no sense for the APC to roll up right onto the flagpole--he's throwing away his long-range accuracy advantage and putting himself in a ridiculously vulnerable position. The APC should lay down cover fire, while his infantry take the flag. But as far as having everyone stay behind and spawn camp so as to encourage defenders to spawn at a different flag, well...that's spawn camping, and against the rules. Just think about the logic of it: yeah, no one's forcing me to spawn in at that control point, I could go elsewhere, but the only reason I'd do that is because I'm being killed while post-spawn disoriented. __________________

02-28-2007, 01:05 PM	#14 (permalink)
[tR]Greasy_mullet Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Tennessee Age: 30 Posts: 713	Re: Spawn Camping Let me also point out that in PoE maps, we tried to have 8-10 possible player spawn spots to reduce the possiblity that you will die on spawning. Some maps and situations are harder than others to get that many in, but we have tried hard to do so. And personally if I spawn and die after a couple times then that tells me that flag is lost. If it is not our last flag then I will try and spawn someplace else close and counter them.

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