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Discussion: Battlefield 2 / Battlefield 2 - Point of Existence Discussion - Understanding the dynamics of vehicle maps - The center flag is all about getting that chopper, I would hate to see it
  1. #16

    Greasy Mullet's Avatar

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    Re: Understanding the dynamics of vehicle maps

    The center flag is all about getting that chopper, I would hate to see it removed. I have always really enjoyed this map but I agree it could use a little more cover.

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  3. #17

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    Re: Understanding the dynamics of vehicle maps

    I believe the developers put in smoke grenades for a reason. That gives you all the cover you want. However, even after playing this game all these months I rarely see anyone use them either in maneuvering or reviving. I still have to yell out smoke at my squad when I want to advance upon an enemy's position.

    All this talk about lack of cover is annoying. In real combat, you don't get to choose how much cover you have. You work with your environment. You think there is a lot of cover while fighting in the deserts of Iraq and Afghanistan? It seems people here don't want adjust their tactics. They just want to use the same old tactics again and again on the same old maps. How is this any different than the discussion of changing tactics on infantry vs. combined arms maps? You have to change tactics based upon the environment also.
    -33rd- BaneII
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  5. #18


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    Re: Understanding the dynamics of vehicle maps

    The amount of smoke grenades in this mod was one of the things I liked the best when I first played it. I think I was the only person in Vanilla ever to use the smoke grenade (I used to use it to counter the mass-pkm users when it was super powerful) and it was pitiful compared to the PoE2 ones.

    Haven't played PoE2 much recently but I am getting the urge to again.
    "It's nothing to do with Stalker, really"

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  7. #19


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    Re: Understanding the dynamics of vehicle maps

    Another relevant bump
    |TG-12th|mantis

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  9. #20

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    Re: Understanding the dynamics of vehicle maps

    Ok, I'll start.

    With the GC scrim finished, I've been giving a lot of thought to how we here at TG, and also people generally, use transport choppers.

    For the most part, I don't see them being used as 'sports but more as secondary attack choppers. While the Sokol may have been highly effective in this role prior to 1.80, my experiences after the scrim lead me to believe that it, like the other 'sports, no longer fits well with an active aggressive role. It does "OK" against armored units and other transports, possibly even the cobra, but is outright pitiful against infantry.

    Frankly, I don't veiw this as problem because I feel that the pilot of a transport chopper should be focused on other, more worthwhile things. To that effect, I created a couple of clips showing how I feel transport choppers are best deployed - ostensibly, as transports. I first posted these in the 5th's forums for discussion so I'll just lift my comments for each directly from there.

    The clips:

    Sokol Transport Chopper 101 - SL Insertions Over Contested Flags - Saitcho Over The Listening Post


    After reviewing the material in this clip, I deem that it could have been executed a little better on a couple of fronts. But if there are any faults, it is mostly due to the fact that I had no way of communicating with Saitcho, the SL I dropped off over the Listening Post roof.

    First of all, however, it’s worth noting that before this maneuver was executed, the Ukraine team had just lost their last flag at the light house and were on bleed. The USMC overran our position and we were left spawned at the Ukr main where everyone took off in their vehicles, giving no rides on the side It was then that I decided that a transport chopper was needed rather than a combat Sokol. I waited for it to respawn, and in good GTA fashion, snagged it away from the last pilot who took it to the Beach and bailed out, leaving it there. Flew back, repaired, picked up Saitcho and crew, and that ‘s where the video starts.

    Things that I would improve upon: communicate with the SL before embarking so that he and his crew all deploy over the roof together (one of them deployed on the chopper's left side and was pushed off). I could have gone in a little straighter and let momentum take me through. However, I was busy concentrating on all of a.) threading the needle over the roof at high speed, b.) braking and leveling to give a safe dust off over the LZ, using the radar domes as cover, c.) getting the hell out before I got nailed again and sent the flaming wreck down onto Saitcho and his men, and d.) chasing off the cobra and LB that were in the area and could easily disrupt Saitcho’s contested flag ops.

    Apart from that, I call it a successful mission, one which expresses the value of a transport chopper when flown after the manner it was intended.

    Sokol Transport Chopper 102 - SL Insertions Over Contested Flags - MoreGooder over the USMC-held Camp.
    Not too much that could have been done differently on this one. It was important to provide support for Gooder on the low-ground beachhead and draw fire away from him if he were to be discovered. With no cover and being low to the ground, flares burn out quicker and are less effective. A direct hit from a MANPAD and 2 more from the F22 finished me off in fairly short order. [But not before the Gooder’s team flipped the flag in favor of the Ukraine.]
    These two clips where pulled from the same BFR. The flags were flipped within I'd say (conservatively) about 3-4 minutes of each other (I botched an insertion before the second clip - VADs at the Camp got us, which is why I dhose the ramp as my next LZ ). The USMC didn't have majority bleed for long in either case.

    The strength of a transport chopper is in its speed and mobility over land (not constrained by winding roads, hills, and other terrain artifacts). It can quickly change attack vectors on the fly, selecting from a number of LZs, where a jeep is fairly limited in terms of how it approaches enemy-held flags, especially when water needs to be crossed. A transport chopper's ability to react quickly to contested areas of the map and to initiate surprise assaults on poorly defended areas of the map that might otherwise be inaccessible over land - "back flags" being guarded by ground units who've set up thick kill zones, for instance - are its chief assets.

    Pilots should look to exploit these strengths to their fullest rather than fly it like a secondary assault chopper. They just aren't well equipped for these roles. Through top-notch flying, a transport pilot delivering a steady run of SLs to hard points around contested flags or other areas of the map where they can flip flags quickly and unexpectedly will do more for their team than the handful of kills they might be able to acquire otherwise over the course of a round.

    It's worth noting that, when flying an SL to a flag he wants to assault, it's probably best if he alone rides in the chopper with the pilot, instructing his SMs to spawn in after he's been dropped off at the LZ. Not only does this reduce the risk of accidental TK's, but a chopper full of men is a huge waste of tickets should things go south and is a real treat for AA, jets, other choppers, and and even for the odd tank when they get a screen full of kill reports.

    It's also worth noting that a transport pilot would benefit greatly from having a commander to relay pickup and drop off orders and/or requests from SLs by suggesting safe LZs around flag areas.

    Finally, wherever possible, the 'sport chopper should stick around for a while to provide some close air support (CAS), evac options for the SL, or at the very least, to draw fire. Their toughness allows them to absorb a couple of solid hits from most things before needing to RTB and repair/rearm. To that end, transport choppers might benefit from a support crew in addition to the pilot; an engineer to provide field repairs and someone to man weapon stations where appropriate (the BlackHawk, for instance) would greatly increase is combat potential and endurance as a CAS vehicle after SL delivery.
    Last edited by Braidedheadman; 09-11-2007 at 10:38 PM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar nazi at work

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  11. #21

    Greasy Mullet's Avatar

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    Re: Understanding the dynamics of vehicle maps

    A hint of an up coming map, but those who master transport choppers will be in high demand.

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  13. #22

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    Re: Understanding the dynamics of vehicle maps

    I smell Pripyat... flags on rooftops that are only accessible from the air...

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  15. #23

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    Re: Understanding the dynamics of vehicle maps

    Quote Originally Posted by [tR]Greasy_mullet View Post
    A hint of an up coming map, but those who master transport choppers will be in high demand.

    So Greasy, hows about a tentative time line for that new map/patch/whatever?

    I would like a new map to tear **** up on!

    @Braided, its all well and good to suggest the proper usage of Transport Helos, but it must be remembered that there is a disparaging line between leaving a Helo sitting on the pad doing nothing and taking it up to tank hunt/troop drop. With the Blackhawk on say Berezan its a bit different, as they have 3 Helos to offset the Ukr's 2. 1 Transport, 2 Attack. So it is superlatively imperative that the Sokol be used as a Transport/Attack Helo to offset the US Helo dominance. On other maps, it seems that these Transport Helos are mistakenly used as throw away transports, usually to get 1 or 2 assailants to a flag ASAP, otherwise they sit at bases waiting to be utilized by the next quick assault lone wolf.

    People keep on forgetting that it's a transport, I may not be in your squad so when you hop in, send a team text to highlight your destination. I usually give a few seconds to type "Where to?" and wait for an answer before lifting off. As lucky can attest, I can usually be depended upon to pull insertion with close cover detail, the later being kind of tiresome because of losing altitude rapidly and not dying. Also, CO support is always the best way to expedite pickups and drop-offs. On the off chance that there is no CO, a team text scrolled to mid-screen with "TRANSPORT/PICKUP SPOT A > SPOT B" will suffice. I must admit I don't pickup on ingame text somewhat because I have to be constantly searching for Thundeer/Santa/Mr. McFeelme/Luckyshot/etc all willing to take me down with Mobile AA, Manpads, Pickup kips, Tank rounds, etc.

    I do understand the need for more people to treat the Transport as a viable option to Dingos, and APC's but the fact of the matter is too often Transport Helos are overlooked as huge targets. Mostly because as mentioned previously SL's get in and their whole squad spawns in culminating in huge ticket losses if hit. That in and of itself is very demoralizing.

    Treat the Transport Helo more like how you would any Cabbie, only we don't get paid by the mile, but by the satisfaction of a flag taken and the appreciation of our fellow teammates.

    Kil out.
    Last edited by kilevvri1; 09-12-2007 at 01:36 PM.

    Long May the FFTHFF(5th) live in our memories and our teamplay.

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  17. #24

    Greasy Mullet's Avatar

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    Re: Understanding the dynamics of vehicle maps

    Quote Originally Posted by ikonic View Post
    I smell Pripyat... flags on rooftops that are only accessible from the air...

    Nope, it is a map you have not seen yet.

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  19. #25

    kilevvri1's Avatar

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    Re: Understanding the dynamics of vehicle maps

    Quote Originally Posted by [tR]Greasy_mullet View Post
    Nope, it is a map you have not seen yet.
    tension mounts

    Long May the FFTHFF(5th) live in our memories and our teamplay.

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  21. #26


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    Re: Understanding the dynamics of vehicle maps

    Hey i remember quite well that moment....wish I had shined more my boots if I knew I was filmed. Honestly as a squad leader unless I or my brother can pilot the chopper I rarely use it, since the pilot usually use it as an attack chopper. Sometimes I can bail out if he happen to fly over an ennemy flag. If I see you flying around ill use your services again for sure.

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  23. #27


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    Re: Understanding the dynamics of vehicle maps

    For anyone that cares : I'm going to start COing certain vehicle maps when I get the chance cause I'm getting tired of the bitching and players dropping because they can't understand the concept of the maps and then fault the map for their errors. Forgive the harsh attitude but this is a topic that frustrates me...
    |TG-12th|mantis

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