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Discussion: Battlefield 2 / Battlefield 2 - Point of Existence Discussion - Command and Control - Originally Posted by Braidedheadman Who said anything about giving up the offensive? I thought that
  1. #16

    BaneII's Avatar

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    Re: Command and Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Braidedheadman View Post
    Who said anything about giving up the offensive? I thought that I had made my case clear by illustrating forward and advancing lines of defense vis-à-vis harassment of what are otherwise strategically unimportant flags. If you think you know my doctrine well enough to always attack freely without securing your flags or at least establishing a perimeter, you may find yourself a flag or two short when the dust settles. We (the German team) didn’t cap all the flags on Fallen the other night because we had hunkered down within our flag radius on some purist's defensive strategy. No, we were hunkered down outside visual range of enemy flag radii and took them from people who could not be bothered to defend them adequately, having chosen instead to run head-long into our killzones for heavy casualties. It wasn’t a race to the Ukraine UCB; it was a slow, methodical march and it brought is right to their very doorstep, saved but for a sneaky few (too little, too late though it was).

    I’m all about unrelenting pressure on the enemy. I just insist that it be done intelligently. Zerging the whole team around the map in a round-robin, whack-a-mole, musical flags contest - ultimately the end product of an entire team dedicated to "attack freely" doctrine - is not intelligent deployment of men and assets.

    And as far as set procedures and things that do and do not work go, I think here would be good time to take a moment and review our performance in the last scrim. Yes, flexibility is important. But so are effective planning and a sound understanding of strategy - the very beating heart of all things "tactical". I constantly hear people talking about how they dressed up an impressive KDR, or this-that-and-the-other-thing. But I just as often see these same people on the losing team.
    I'm not sure why you are equating my remark about racing to the enemy UCB as a review of your Fallen strategy. I said it was a common occurrence seen on our server (any server most likely), end of sentence. Second, lemme pull your quotes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Braidedheadman
    I'd like to elaborate on this by saying that Whiskey'sbv advice here plays very well into defensive strategies. Furthermore, what people need to realize is that once your team has enough flags to cause the enemy to bleed tickets, going after "the next" flag is both unnecessary and, IMHO, irresponsible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Braidedheadman
    I would like to suggest that flag defense should become the rule of thumb around here rather than the exception that it often seems to be; possibly as an amendment to our SOPs. My thoughts are that if/when a squad takes a flag, they should have some obligation to maintain that flag for at least a couple of minutes before moving out again, allowing other squads a shot at the front lines.
    Standard operating procedures for defense? Unnecessary for another flag because you have bleed? That's is what I am against, set rules for certain situations. Every battlefield is different and it is essential to adapt rather than relying on such things.

    Yes, the last scrim was nice but the opponents weren't really a challenge. Consider that we have a 4-0 scrim record against them, I'm not really surprised that we won [again]. Planning and writing up strategy is nice but that is rare. The norm is jumping on the server and playing with a constantly changing roster, no planning whatsoever. In such situations, it's playing with the hand that is dealt. And that's what I mean by flexible. Taking what you have and using it to however you can to accomplish your goals. There are a lot more reasons we do well in scrims, but that can be a whole topic by itself (!).
    -33rd- BaneII
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  3. #17

    TG_Blood's Avatar

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    Re: Command and Control

    All good inputs and I appreciate all the comments!!

    Lets pull this back to idea generation as to improve squad coordination with no/poor command or control.

    In large maps with lots of assets good coordination is needed and for many reasons stated above just is not there. I believe that using team speak for SL's (where possible) for alternate and supportive commo may be a simple effective tool here. Its been a long time since I used it (I guess I need a password now) and maybe this is already being used?? Also it would be great having a separate channel for air support with a bind key of some sort for those times you need it. I bet this has been done before as well.
    The question is how can we motivate/inform people (such as myself) as to the best use of this type of commo? Or is this all being done now and I am just out of the loop on this??????

    This weekend I will figure out how to get back on team speak. I bet I will get an ear full when I enter......

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  5. #18

    WhiskeySix's Avatar

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    Re: Command and Control

    I started using team chat last night... seemed to help..


    "Squad 5 - you defending?"
    "yes- lumbermill"
    "copy, Squad 3 moving to watermill"

    |TG-12th|WhiskeySix

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  7. #19

    ProjectNA's Avatar

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    Re: Command and Control

    ^^^This may be all we have for now, and it seemed to work last night, except when squad 5 split for watermill with no feedback : )

    Since we obviously don't want all caps, to anathemax's point, is there any way to make 'tactical' text a new color/larger font/etc. for inter-squad comm?

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  9. #20

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    Re: Command and Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick_Slick View Post
    Sometimes it's boring but you need to resist the urge to wander out trying to find some action.
    Is this marriage advice from Dr. Phil or advice for POE2?

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  11. #21

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    Re: Command and Control

    Quote Originally Posted by gator skywalker View Post
    Is this marriage advice from Dr. Phil or advice for POE2?

    Haha.

    Dr. Slick says, "Defending a flag is sometimes like marriage. Stick with what you've got and be happy just to be there. Sometimes it's boring but you need to resist the urge to wander out trying to find some action."

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  13. #22

    Braidedheadman's Avatar

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    Re: Command and Control

    Quote Originally Posted by BaneII View Post
    I'm not sure why you are equating my remark about racing to the enemy UCB as a review of your Fallen strategy. I said it was a common occurrence seen on our server (any server most likely), end of sentence.
    Hmmm... I was pretty tired by the time I made those comments last night. It felt like they were for me at the time, given that I've probably been the most vocal in advocating a more defensive "TG style", if you will. Having gone back an re-read, I can see your point a little more clearly now, however. Pardon my miscalcluated remarks; lesson learned.

    As to the rest, I think we've made each our points and they have merit in their own right. Apart from that, I'm prepared to agree to disagree with you if you'll shake on it. There's no one right way to approach strategy after all and I'm not here to convince anyone of my point of view; while it's true that I can be a pretty opinionated bastich at times , I certainly don't subscribe to "My Way or the Highway Weekly". I merely offer my opinion for consideration and enjoy a good debate when it comes my way, nothing more.

    Shake hands?

    Quote Originally Posted by xanathemax View Post
    Well as my personal hero Wayne Cambpell would say, ixnay on the ondescension-cay there, Chet. Everyone thinks they know just how everyone else should play at all times, and has no problem making this known in really uncivil manners. All caps messages in chat probably aren't going to have much of an effect other than pissing off people that really don't give a damn how much you think you know about what their situation is. This applies not just to tactics but to the way I see some people on this server constantly telling everyone else what to play and how to play it exactly (and, if I may be frank, often times the kind of suggestions they offer are just plain wrong). I can't even begin to describe how many times I've been trying pretty damn hard to play well and play cohesively as a team only to hear some knob say in a condescending tone "well, what are our medics doing/where's our air support/why didn't you revive me." Give people the benefit of the doubt sometimes - I know it feels good to think of yourself as the almighty god of all things online gaming, but recognize that you probably don't know the situation and the solution for every player on the battlefield and what they're trying to accomplish. And if you think you do, go commander for Clapton's sake instead of playing backseat driver for the whole team.
    Regarding all caps messages, I'll be the first to raise my hand and plead guilty as charged. Just last night I all caps'ed messages to squads defending the Outpost on Orel x64 when a jeep would fly through in their direction. From my point of view, I was providing tactical information to the team in a way that was more easily visible above the usual spam. I didn't know that early in the map that Mantis was still commanding from the previous round and when I was alerted to that fact, I used CO channels to provide feedback.

    I'll also be the first to admit that, on occasion, I've let a bad day and a frustrating round of PoE get under my skin and I've snapped at a few people here and there. We all do these things and I think it's safe to say that, for most of us, we never mean it to be taken personally. For my part, I've apologized when my behavior has been particularly boorish. I don't respond well to name calling, however, and if a person can't be bothered to tell me in a polite manner that I've offended them and give me the chance to apologize and make amends, I feel less inclined to seek them out and offer my penance. That said, if there are those to whom they feel I still owe apologies, I offer them now.

    And on that note, allow me to address the body of your comments.

    You know, I may be jumping the gun here (again), but you've shown on numerous occasions already that you do indeed have some kind of axe to grind with me. So, I'll have to assume that the bulk of your comments were meant for me more specifically than Bane's. And, as long as we quoting various idioms, in response all I really have to say is: "Be sure that you practice what you preach."

    I mean, if you are going to take the moral high-ground, you might want to see that your choice of language is a little less colorful than it is. I know I, for one, don't appreciate being called a "knob", among the variety of other things that you've chosen to call me in the past. There’s good, clean debate between civilized people, and then there’s belittle-and-berate. Your comments above leave me with the impression that they fall under the latter, as they have in the past also. Again, make sure your own slate is clean before you run around trying to wipe somebody else's.

    @The Rest:
    That will be enough off topic from me, folks. I leave the floor to you and the topic at hand.
    Last edited by Braidedheadman; 09-15-2007 at 01:18 AM. Reason: Spelling & Grammar nazi at work

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  15. #23

    BaneII's Avatar

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    Re: Command and Control

    Pfft. All caps messages? If you're offended by all caps messages under the idiotic belief that it somehow means shouting, then you are way too sensitive. Hate to burst people's bubbles, but writing in all caps has existed for millennia and somehow just because it appears on a computer screen, the meaning of upper case changes? It's just easier to read and faster to type/write that way. Ignoring a message because of all caps is just asinine.
    -33rd- BaneII
    Smokers & Jokers

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  17. #24


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    Re: Command and Control

    Related to this topic, alot depends on what it going on within each particular map battle. When I am the SL and my squad takes a flag, I usually assume to defend it for a few minutes. The exception would be if it is a back flag not near the front lines and we have wiped out any enemy grunts. At this point I would often have them push forward. However, if it is a critcial flag on the front lines or one of our last few flags, then I am inclined to defend it for a longer period of time, depending on how many other flags our team eventually captures, etc. Defending flags is important to me, but there comes a time when after defending for awhile without any real enemy threats, then advancing to the next flag seems like a logical tactical measure. Moreover, Having SL's talk to each other seems like a great idea, esp. when there is not a CO present. It would be an effective way to spread squads around the map defending and attacking flags w/o having them get bunched up together.

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  19. #25

    Braidedheadman's Avatar

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    Re: Command and Control

    Knights brings up a good point. Back flags that are well behind the front lines can often be left unguarded if it means shoring up the front and plugging holes through which OPFOR can sneak into and take flags unnoticed. Still, where there's need for the vanguard, the rearguard plays just as vital a role and friendly-held territories probably ought not to be utterly abandoned. There was a cost in tickets to acquire them, they should be defended against infiltration, if not at the rear flags themselves. Enter the "roam" squads.

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  21. #26

    Lucky Shot's Avatar

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    Re: Command and Control

    POE has the weakest CO's of any BF series. There are many positives in having a weaker CO, but the negatives lead to breakdown in coordination and 6-9 different leaders with their own plan. One may think bleed and defense, another may say domination of the flag in front of me, another may say if I just snipe enough of those guys at that flag in front of me. Teamspeak is not going to be a way to coordinate between squads as not everyone uses it and often you will have the opposition in your channel too.

    The best you can do is know what it takes to win and try to read through what the rest of the team is doing much like you would if you were driving on the highway. What is that squad going to do next? Can I tell what they are facing now and figure out based on that what the enemy is doing? Can I take advantage of this somehow (support them while defending still, or attack the flag they are coming from to ease pressure, send a couple guys, change positioning...). You can read a lot from your map and it can give you the advantage you need to figure out what people are doing so that you can move to the appropriate place. Just like seeing other drivers on the highway, you can eventually anticipate what people are doing including new drivers, clueless drivers and even rageaholics who get mad because your bumper sticker is in caps. Your reaction to how the battlefield moves (friend and foe) will determine whether or not you win.

    Lucky Shot

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  23. #27

    Magonushi's Avatar

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    Re: Command and Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Braidedheadman View Post
    Knights brings up a good point. Back flags that are well behind the front lines can often be left unguarded if it means shoring up the front and plugging holes through which OPFOR can sneak into and take flags unnoticed. Still, where there's need for the vanguard, the rearguard plays just as vital a role and friendly-held territories probably ought not to be utterly abandoned. There was a cost in tickets to acquire them, they should be defended against infiltration, if not at the rear flags themselves. Enter the "roam" squads.
    Case in point being Highway to Hell.

    I've had so many games now as the German team where we rush on to take Town and heavily defend it, only to lose Outpost behind us without a fight. This is particularly bad for three reasons which are probably obvious but I like to run my mouth so just watch me list them.

    a) Bleed. Duh and actually not the most important factor by far.
    b) Interruption of material to Town. This is a huge one. With even just the tank that spawn at outpost and the AT infantry that doubtlessly support it, this base can ruin your chances of holding onto that precious middle base.
    c) Ease of defense. For how open this base appears it seems to be incredibly easy for anyone to hold with just a single squad. I've seen an entire team try to punch its way into Outpost in hopes of cutting a straight line to Town, only to be completely repulsed by a single squad.

    These all together make the vanguard more important than just serving to protect against bleed. Such things shouldn't be forgotten before considering the prose and cons of keeping your squad on the flag you just captured (even if it is just a skipping stone flag.)


    As for the bigger case of Braidedheadman v. BaneII, it's really an argument of Strategy (Braided) vs. Tactics (Bane). Having a good plan including definitive flag objectives, well thought out defensive and offensive squad maneuvers, and a good mix of kits can make or break a team. A good example of this breaking down is when two teams play musical chairs with the flags. However when two enemies are evenly matched in basic strategy, superior on-the-spot tactical decisions will almost uniformly triumph. The main problem here is when everyone tries to be a master tactician. When this happens any strategy that may exist collapses into chaos.

    I think in BF2 it comes down to letting people play what they are good at, which is not always the same as what they want to do at first. I've seen plenty of noobs (one of them in first person) charge blindly at the nearest enemy flag because they don't know any better and it's worked for them in the past. I quickly found out that I was much better at defense than offense in PoE2 especially on TG. And now that I've gotten a little used to it, I really enjoy the satisfaction of breaking that wave of T-84s or a squad of mobile infantry that thought they had found another undefended flag. It's like napalm in the morning.

    But for the non-defensive type, and they certainly exist, the players who can worm or bust their way into any 'flawless' defensive spread, it's best to let them shine. Eventually defenses break, and the best response is to have a good offense always probing an enemy for a weakness to exploit.

    Constraining team mates to what you are good at is a waste of skill, and arguing in favor of it is a little bit silly. Realistically everyone should be aware of alternatively valid play styles. Both are needed for victory, unless of course someone only cares about their K2D ratio, in which case I wonder why they play on TG.
    Last edited by Magonushi; 09-25-2007 at 09:44 AM. Reason: I must do what the voices tell me.
    "Divide and rule, a sound motto. Unite and lead, a better one." -Goethe

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  25. #28

    Braidedheadman's Avatar

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    Re: Command and Control

    Here! Here! I think you've struck the balance that I was trying to express but couldn't (Braidedheadman sucks again! ).

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