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Discussion: Battlefield 2 / Battlefield 2 - Point of Existence Discussion - Command and Control - Hey guys,
Have had some really good nights in POE which BTW has helped me
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09-13-2007, 04:51 PM #1
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Command and Control
Hey guys,
Have had some really good nights in POE which BTW has helped me get through some pretty rough personal times. For that I say THANKS!!!
Now about POE command and Control. Its pretty lacking. I was wondering in a constructive way if there can be some motivational methods used to attract good commanders? I noticed that (and I am sure there have been many threads on this already) that many SL tend to bunch up at a single flag collectively failing to realize the concept of bleed and overall map strategy. A good commander should keep this from happening but I see often no commander at all even on the bigger maps.
any ideas?
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09-13-2007, 05:22 PM #2
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Re: Command and Control
The main reason is that commanders are redundant and superfluous if the squad leaders do their job properly. Since the POE2 commander only has smoke and supplies at their disposal, it doesn't make the position too useful to competent squad leaders. Unless I need to rearm the artillery or APC AT missiles, I can get what I need from player kits. Other than that, without a scanner, the commander doesn't have any information that I don't have. The commander has less information since I am better aware of who I'm fighting against on the frontlines and can adjust accordingly and, most important, quickly.
When BF2 was young, commanders were more important with the UAV and artillery providing close support for the grunts. Top down strategy was needed for guidance for the novices. Two years and many games later, the elite players don't have to rely on top down leadership. It's quite simple to look at the map and see what needs to be done without communication. Once you are able to do that, that's when you know you've reached that pinnacle. I see the mothballing of commanders as the side effect of reaching a high level of gameplay at TG rather than a deficit. At least when it comes to POE2.
And now you know why we do so well in scrims.
-33rd- BaneII
Smokers & Jokers
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09-13-2007, 06:22 PM #3
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Re: Command and Control
I agree with you. BUT we must try and make it clear to all SL that they should not all defend or attack one flag. Its VERY frustrating to have that happen AND then have all squads hop back and forth flag to flag. All the strategy goes right out the window and it gets to be a situation where its every man for himself.
When I am SL I try to pick a flag take it and defend it. When I do I find 3 other SL's in my camp and I move on only to have it happen again and again.
One Idea that maybe Mantis came up with which I find great is to name your squad with a flag name. This becomes your flag to defend hold and maintain. Its less flexible but one way to try and maintain some kind of order which normally a commander would take charge of.
Comments?
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09-13-2007, 07:06 PM #4
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Re: Command and Control
I haven't been on the server much lately, and maybe you're already doing this over Teamspeak/Ventrillo behind the scenes, but I never see a whole lot of team-chat between squad leaders letting the other squad leaders know what their intentions are. Maybe this is all that is needed:
"Squad 5 moving to defend Church"
"Squad 3's got church, but could use your help here, 3 will attack Backyard."
"Squad 1 has Rick_Slick in it, we're just 5 medics following him around."
"Squad 2 attacking Lumber Mill."
"Squad 4 requesting backup at Farm!"
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09-13-2007, 07:19 PM #5
Re: Command and Control
good point! In fact, the text for "Enemy Spotted!", "Get Ammo Here!", etc. was removed from the chat box for this exact reason!
|TG-12th|WhiskeySix
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09-13-2007, 07:23 PM #6
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Re: Command and Control
What I really hate is when you are defending a flag, it gets busy, so you decide to go out and do something else. Guess what happens? It seems like most of the time the flag is empty within 2 minutes and you need to end up hoofing it back there to recapture.
Originally Posted by TG_Blood
I've also tried the name the squad after the flag trick. The last time I did it (with Lumbermill) our team didn't have ownership of that flag for most of the round and it was too well defended for us to capture without significant team help. Reminds me of the time I started playing POE2 again and named a squad "VOIP D". I ended up going on attack all the time since the rest of the team wasn't doing it. So what I'm saying is I wouldn't recommend this.
I'm not sure there is a substitute over having all veteran SLs, a commander, or the SLs coordinating with each other in some way (obviously TS2 would be best for this).
Bernout
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09-13-2007, 08:27 PM #7
Re: Command and Control
I was thinking about this very thing, especially after a few rounds of uncoordinated Fallen - how to coordinate the squads. Assuming all SL's are 'competent' doesn't always work, since some just form to keep from getting booted. To me, the commander has some impact in cases like this, but since that is the "only" impact besides supplies, the seat seems to always be empty.
I have seen Santa and others (including myself) attempt to be an SL "plus" by trying to direct other squads, to limited success "guys, we have bleed, defend!!!" etc. etc. There was even talk of SL to SL comm. Interesting issue.
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09-13-2007, 08:51 PM #8
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Re: Command and Control
This goes back to what I said in another thread, I remember when TG squads would break up and have 3 5th's and 3 pubs/me that way you start teaching some ppl the basics and they learn after that. Now I mostly see, myself included SL with locked squads who invite only TG'ers. I at least try to mix it up with a few pubbies, hit and miss. Originally Posted by ProjectNA
I say 2 LEARN TG nights a week will fix this and other problems in a month.
Long May the FFTHFF(5th) live in our memories and our teamplay.
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09-13-2007, 09:30 PM #9
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Re: Command and Control
You just fell for the ol' diversion trick. Defending a flag is just that... defending a flag. Originally Posted by Bernout
Sometimes it's boring but you need to resist the urge to wander out trying to find some action.
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09-13-2007, 09:47 PM #10
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Re: Command and Control
I think it all boils down to one thing, and one thing alone: many people, and I dare say most, are reluctant to stay at a flag for any length of time to defend. I posted a large response elsewhere on why defense is an attractive option for those who play it out properly, so I won't get into that here.
I would like to suggest that flag defense should become the rule of thumb around here rather than the exception that it often seems to be; possibly as an amendment to our SOPs. My thoughts are that if/when a squad takes a flag, they should have some obligation to maintain that flag for at least a couple of minutes before moving out again, allowing other squads a shot at the front lines. I visualize a map playing out as a game of leapfrog from one flag to the next until bleed or air-tight OPFOR containment is achieved.
I realize that there are bugs to work out, like when 2 or more squads participate in flipping a flag and the question becomes who returns to the front lines first; but the long and short of it is if you capture a flag, you should be required to defend that flag for several minutes at least. You thought the flag was important enough to capture, now take responsibility for it as well (please).
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09-14-2007, 12:07 AM #11
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Re: Command and Control
I would even go out on a precarious limb and dare say that the introduction of recorded stats on the server might be a detractor to people's willingness to spend an extended period of time on defense.
Sure, you could say that a properly defended choke-point/key flag can rack up stats just as easily, but when they're on defense on some out of the way flag that's probably not going to see much relative action, but is essential for bleed, people who track their stats progress are going to be more prone to get that itch to wander off and go find someone to shoot if they know their persistent stats are being tracked.
Which, to Braided's point, would require some sort of rotation SOP so "defense duty" got shared evenly among the squads.
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09-14-2007, 01:50 AM #12
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Re: Command and Control
You guys are missing the point. A battlefield is a fluid situation. Trying to come up with a set procedure for every situation is the wrong way to go about it. You must learn to study the field and know what actions are appropriate. Saying to give up the offensive just because you have bleed restricts your choices. If I'm on the other side, I'm gonna automatically know that I can attack freely because I already know your doctrine. There are times where it is quite appropriate to keep the pressure on the other team. You guys like to deviate towards the thought that if we are one touchdown ahead, we can stop going for touchdowns because we are winning.
The main reason you see so much disorganization on the field is because most folks don't understand how to play. Their goal is to keep running towards the enemy shooting and hoping they can kill something. Then they wonder why you there are guys at the top of the scoreboard with 5-1 kill-death ratios. The other thing is that they think BF2 is a race to the enemy's UCB. They will keep going forward taking flags until the get the one right outside the UCB. Then they will amass there waiting while all the flags fall behind them. Why this happens I cannot say, but it's a common occurrence.
It comes down to this, if a player isn't willing to learn how to play properly, then there is nothing you can do. So many people come through thinking they know everything and they are hot shyte until they get waxed repeatedly. I take it as a badge of honor when I'm accused of hacking. If someone really wants to learn to play, they should shutup, do what they are told, and then watch to see what happens. Otherwise, just use the hopeless cases as cannon fodder for points.-33rd- BaneII
Smokers & Jokers
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09-14-2007, 01:56 AM #13
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Re: Command and Control
Actually I often get more satisfaction defending than attacking (when I have a good squad). I also praise all team members when we hold off an offensive and I do beleive there is a lot of pride in doing just that.
I am all in favor of SLs having a dedicated channel. This would in my mind elimiante the need for a comander. Then the SL's can work together use pair presure and the like to "get the job done".
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09-14-2007, 03:34 AM #14
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Re: Command and Control
Who said anything about giving up the offensive? I thought that I had made my case clear by illustrating forward and advancing lines of defense vis-à-vis harassment of what are otherwise strategically unimportant flags. If you think you know my doctrine well enough to always attack freely without securing your flags or at least establishing a perimeter, you may find yourself a flag or two short when the dust settles. We (the German team) didn’t cap all the flags on Fallen the other night because we had hunkered down within our flag radius on some purist's defensive strategy. No, we were hunkered down outside visual range of enemy flag radii and took them from people who could not be bothered to defend them adequately, having chosen instead to run head-long into our killzones for heavy casualties. It wasn’t a race to the Ukraine UCB; it was a slow, methodical march and it brought is right to their very doorstep, saved but for a sneaky few (too little, too late though it was).
I’m all about unrelenting pressure on the enemy. I just insist that it be done intelligently. Zerging the whole team around the map in a round-robin, whack-a-mole, musical flags contest - ultimately the end product of an entire team dedicated to "attack freely" doctrine - is not intelligent deployment of men and assets.
And as far as set procedures and things that do and do not work go, I think here would be good time to take a moment and review our performance in the last scrim. Yes, flexibility is important. But so are effective planning and a sound understanding of strategy - the very beating heart of all things "tactical". I constantly hear people talking about how they dressed up an impressive KDR, or this-that-and-the-other-thing. But I just as often see these same people on the losing team.
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09-14-2007, 06:11 AM #15
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Re: Command and Control
Well as my personal hero Wayne Cambpell would say, ixnay on the ondescension-cay there, Chet. Everyone thinks they know just how everyone else should play at all times, and has no problem making this known in really uncivil manners. All caps messages in chat probably aren't going to have much of an effect other than pissing off people that really don't give a damn how much you think you know about what their situation is. This applies not just to tactics but to the way I see some people on this server constantly telling everyone else what to play and how to play it exactly (and, if I may be frank, often times the kind of suggestions they offer are just plain wrong). I can't even begin to describe how many times I've been trying pretty damn hard to play well and play cohesively as a team only to hear some knob say in a condescending tone "well, what are our medics doing/where's our air support/why didn't you revive me." Give people the benefit of the doubt sometimes - I know it feels good to think of yourself as the almighty god of all things online gaming, but recognize that you probably don't know the situation and the solution for every player on the battlefield and what they're trying to accomplish. And if you think you do, go commander for Clapton's sake instead of playing backseat driver for the whole team.
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