-
09-20-2007, 06:33 PM #16
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
Actually if guys who did mod would play Lock On once they would learn that SU25 does not have single bomb drop mode. It only can drop them in pairs
) (In reality single drop is dangerous for the plane itself if bombs are not on the central pylon) And it does not have HUD as well as lot of other equipment. So may be pair drop mode is ok. But splash damage is way too low. The time of reload makes Frogfoot way too slow to respond quickly on the second threat, so I think that the bomb using mode it have already made plane at list twice less effective as it was.
With reloading speed we have now I had situations when after coming over airstrip I fly to the other side of the map and do not have bombs ready to use over the target.
-
09-20-2007, 06:59 PM #17
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
I have nothing to add here - but welcome to the forums Merc! It's about time!!

|TG-12th|WhiskeySix
-
09-20-2007, 07:18 PM #18
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
Interesting topic on skills vs. assets and how that is viewed, and how it "affects" people's experience of the game.
I remember cursing the frogfoot to high heaven on every map it was on. However, even I could hop in and actually hit the triangles.
I currently curse the Hind to high heaven. I have repeatedly put a tank round in it only to have it slaughter me, repair, rinse repeat. However, even though I am pretty good in the apache, I am not in the HIND, but that probably has more to do with only being able to fly it with a gunner when there is no-one left on the server (as he prays for kilevr1's *real* retirement : )
I can't get the damn mobile AA to kill anything (although the "cap" flying off when the rocket leaves the tube is really cool, I love that).
I love the anti-material rifle, but I love knifing users of the anti-material to no end. The average user can use one, but there are constraints to staying alive with one (must be prone, loud noise when shot, etc.)
I think I should have just said I have nothing to add too, but I appreciate the challenge in trying to balance all these different dynamics and skill sets. What is the expectation on an 'average' player using an asset? What is the learning curve of the asset? The HIND is hard to fly, IMO, so I accept that its going to cause me trouble when there is a competent pilot flying it, the same way I accept to see Lucky's rear end on a spawn screen at least once a round - he's earned it.
If there are planes sitting on the runway, I would claim there may be an issue. However, I have played many rounds where our whole UCB is packed with armor and AA and everyone's yelling at the opfor pilot.
Damn, what was the question again?
-
09-20-2007, 07:25 PM #19
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
I've seen Elmeistro and Mantis rack up points on Orel in the armored car. The reason? Lack of players with anti-personnel kits or grenade launchers. Now who do you blame? The car or the victims? The victims of course for ignoring their anti-vehicle duties. Why is it any different for the Frogfoot? If a team ignores their anti-air, can you be surprised that the enemy aircraft reign supreme?
-33rd- BaneII
Smokers & Jokers
-
09-20-2007, 07:51 PM #20
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
This.
The tools are there for you to use... not using them effectively is not a game balance issue, it's a skills/tactics issue.
Can any idiot rack up a high K/D ratio in the old Frogfoot? Yes.
Can any idiot rack up a high K/D ratio in the point-and-kill AM Rifle? Yes.
Can any idiot rack up a high K/D ratio in the Tomahawk launcher? Yes.
Why nerf one to the point of marginal usefulness and not the others?
Although I agree it would be more interesting to remove the HUD target indicators on the bombers and require team effort to spot the ground vehicles for air support.
-
09-20-2007, 07:56 PM #21
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
The frogfoot was ridiculous Bane...you could tear it up with AA and solid jet work but the vehicle would still get 50 kills just because the bombs were so effective. The splash damage of just one bomb obliterated a tank. So even if you got taken out on the first pass that first run on the triangle you were going after pretty much was a couple guaranteed kills. Drop...dead....drop...dead. For everyone run you were pretty much assured 2-3 kills at worst. There was nothing to it and the amount of armor it was taking down with ease was completely shaping maps. We didn't run Guardian anymore because there was no point to use the armor as Germany....Sambir was similar. The effectiveness of the vehicle was just so much higher than the Tornado. A good tornado team with viper involved is likely going to peak at 50 kills. Viper with the frogfoot however could put up numbers like this. (I see your AA domination which helps but the point is still there) Average pilots would easily get 60-70 kills. Again though...its more than the kill count...one team was able to utilize their armor...the other wasn't. This shapes the ground battle and even teams on paper would result in big ukr wins. I'm with ya on teams being punished for not using AA(see vehicle threads) and I agree with most that the vehicle is a bit too nerfed but the 1.15 froggie definitely had to go.
The mig was also stupid...point click and the chopper/jet are dead. Extremely frustrating to be on the recieving end of that one hit wonder. That was the only reason a lot of people flew that jet...now they won't fly it because it takes two hits to kill a chopper/jet? All the same advantages and disadvantages are still there in the flight dynamics...so just play to its strengths and fire that extra missile.|TG-12th|mantis


-
09-20-2007, 09:15 PM #22
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
I don't believe that the bombs are as bad as people make them out to be. Yes, they've been nerfed for both factions, it's true. Sure they may feel like 500 lb grenades if you only score a single hit with one of them per drop. But then again, if you watch your screen carefully, even then a pilot should see frequent "kill assist" messages if he's assisting the front lines and responding to contested flags as he should, rather than hunting for armor far from the fight. Moreover, I've personally seen 2 direct hits level a tank with ease (both in the EF2000 and the Frogfoot). Anything that calls for a single bomb to do sufficient damage to destroy a freshly painted tank is too much, as is calling for 2 loosely grouped bombs doing the same level of damage over a wider area. Frankly, of the two, the latter is certainly the least desirable.
Being able to take off successfully should not automatically qualify a pilot for high points on the ladder. I strongly beleive that pilots should be rewarded for precise flying and precise deployment of munitions first and foremost. What is the sense of having aircraft that are so powerful that any wannabe jet jockey can climb into one and dominate the ground game? Personally, I would rather have a weaker jet to fly - and be able to fly it every other map or so - than have everyone so pissed about the issue that the air maps never show up in the rotation.
Having said that, I have long felt, and even suggested openly with PoE devs visiting the 5th's TS channel, that the Frogfoot as it is now would benefit greatly from a better nose cannon; one that does higher pinpoint damage with a nominal amount of splash damage (it shouln't be a "great" infantry killer per se). I believe that it would best simulate the Frog's intended role as a rugged CAS airframe in a PoE environment. It wouldn't be like it was before where the bombs defined the pilot as it takes more skill to put cannon shots on a target area for long enough to do decent damage, and more still to score a kill. In conjunction with bombs, the Frogfoot should able to take out a tank in two passes; one only if the pilot is very skilled. I believe that a stronger forward firing arc would be the Frog's best trade-off for the speed and maneuverablility that it is now handicapped by.
-
09-20-2007, 10:18 PM #23
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
So it's okay for the attack helicopters to fire one missile and destroy a freshly painted tank? That logic doesn't make any sense to me. In reality, the difference between a bomb and missile is this: a missile sacrifices ordinance to deliver it's payload further and with more precision; a bomb is unguided but packed with as much explosive as possible to deliver a large a blast as possible (use Oklahoma City as an example of what just a homemade bomb can accomplish). To have missiles destroy armor in one shot and not bombs is just plain silly. If that's the case, then missile damage needs to be reduced to two shots for an armor kill. I don't know why it's okay for guided missiles (lock and shoot, oh boy, that's a lot of skill there) to be guaranteed kills but not bombs since guided takes way less skill to use.
The main issue is that BF2 armor has always been too easy to kill. That's why you don't see people using it much. A fully manned APC is a rarity because you are just too vulnerable in it. Two hits and it's down. It's an oxymoron for something that's supposed to be an ARMORED PERSONNEL CARRIER. It's much safer to go on foot without "armor" since you don't light up like an X-Mas tree on somebody's dashboard. I find it quite amusing that armor can be scanned for but radar is non-existent. I guess that all the aircraft are stealth.-33rd- BaneII
Smokers & Jokers
-
09-20-2007, 10:28 PM #24
-
09-20-2007, 10:50 PM #25
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
[Edit] Looks like Mantis beat me to the effectiveness of A2G missiles. It confirms what I had only really suspected at least.
Well, first of all, you forgot to mention that the guided missiles can be spoofed by smoke pops. Second, I really don't fly the choppers as much, so I can't say that that happens with frequency or not. I do know that the Tiger's A2G missile doesn't always roast a tank in the first shot. Lighter vehicles, sure, but there's still the issue of smoke/flares; most vehicles heavier than a jeep have countermeasures, meaning that the first shot almost always misses. Jeeps, for that matter, are speedy enough that the missile usually impacts the ground near them and does splash rather than direct damage much of the time, sparing the crew. So in reality, you are looking at a minimum of two shots to make the kill with guided weapons in just about all cases. For that matter, the "better" chopper pilots rely on their rockets before switching to A2G missiles whenever they have the option. It makes for a rough ride, however, and makes their co-pilot's job more difficult than it should be.
I understand your argument that bombs have a wider area of effect in reality, but we are talking about PoE2 here. And we all know how things went while bombs delivered their heavier yields in the past. The key difference between bombs and guided missiles as far as PoE goes is that bombs can be dropped with extreme precision, for which there is no viable counter except to shoot the pilot out of the sky before he completes his run. A skilled pilot, however, can and will make a kill, or come very near to it, on the first run without interuption just about every time, flares and smoke pops notwithstanding. Thus, you will find that unguided bombs - agian, for which there are no countermeasures once released - are capable of yielding a higher score per round than guided munitions will deliver. I know this from personal experience for a fact as my performance flying jets is much better in the EF2000 than in the F22-CAS, for example. With the Tornado, it's even worse because I have to rely on my gunner to know what he is doing. Of the allied army's assets, in terms of A2G superiority, I would rank the EF2000 first, followed by the F22-CAS, Tornado, and F18. I rank the F18 last mostly because I haven't found anyone who wants to lab the TVGM with me for any legnth of time. But given that TVGM are another weapon against which there are no countersmeasures, I suspect it can be highly effective for F18 teams who know how to use it properly.
But for now, at the end of the day, it's just easier and more efficient to place dumb bombs than it is to wait for the lock, wait for the flares to clear, reacquire lock, and launch a missile that has absolutely no guarantee of a fist-hit-kill (apart from the Tornado's LGB). And if one doesn't make the kill in the first pass, a second sweep with nose cannon dispatches whatever's left with ease for quick points all round.
In view of that, I again assert that the Frogfoot would benefit greatly from increased forward firepower, preferably on the nose cannon. I feel this would strike a good balance between the Frog's lack of speed, wide turn radius, and complement its other weapons very well.
-
09-21-2007, 01:30 AM #26
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
The nose cannon is actually just right in my opinion. You have a chance to kill a tank on the first pass if you keep the cross hairs on it. Anything lighter than a tank is toast.
I agree that the bombs are worthless. I have had 0 success with them and now use the cannon almost exclusively. The rockets are okay for saturating an area that is beyond sight in the hopes of taking out some infantry. The bombs need to either have some utility, or be removed for faster weapon cycling.
Before I was dropping 1 bomb for 1 tank kill. Now I can drop all 4 and kill nothing. Not sure if that illustrates their previously ridiculous power or their current uselessness.
-
09-21-2007, 02:43 PM #27
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
Haw often do u kill tanks by the gun from a first burst??? Haw do u aim at them , considering camouflage?
If u shoot any other target than tank or APC fighter guns have absolutely same effectiveness. And unguided missiles look to have more splash damage than bombs (ridiculus).
Haw long can u survive in the air if other team have planes with decent pilots in the air?
I'm pretty much sure Tornado have same or about the same power in his guns. And it is way more survivable tank. So if u stick with guns only it will still be way superior.
I started this conversation from the balance. And it is totally lost now. I do not say that SU can not kill s***t -it still can, but it is worthless if we have other side in the air.
And about MIG, u can still take out helos, but in the fight helo vs MIG Tiger will have advantage, as his missile are way easier to aim and second R-25 has like 80% to miss. Only way to attack is to go from high and try to go back before the altitude Tiger can aim at u. R-60 have too low damage to kill anything, considering Mantis's interceptor theory. And as for MIG vs. Eurofighter. We have-second missile miss Eurofighter escape lock, come back and kills u. And afterburner does not help-it is not endless. As well as if u burned it all u have to stay high until u have it full? And well Eurofighter also have afterburner and in most cases it is enough to lock and shot MIG.
The problem is- now we have virtually invincible Eurofighter and Tornado - good enough to stay alive whole game and have high K/D just using guns and AA. From the other side is toothless SU and MIG that can easily being down by Eurofighter or Tiger or Tornado. So it is one AA piece vs. two and Tornado matches MIG as AA fighter in everything but warlord , still standing way more agile plane both low speed or high speed. Actually Germany have like twice more AA capability considering Gepard have AA missiles and Guns in the same time , and Ukraine have to bring two separate pieces to match it.
-
09-21-2007, 02:51 PM #28
- Join Date
- Nov 2005
- Posts
- 3,892
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
How about make air to ground ordinance more lethal but force planes and helicopters to land for a substantial time (20 or 25 seconds?) to rearm?
-
09-21-2007, 03:07 PM #29
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
And just for Mantis- if u meet F-22 or SU27 with good pilot who just look to down u.... Mantis u r so dead. Just two missile of 6, both have huge AA damage, powerful guns, perfect agility on high and low speed, enough speed to escape ground AA fire for both planes- helos have no chances
)
So MIG made u angry, now Flanker and Raptor arrive to make u angry. And ground attack Raptor from my point of view is way deadlier for armour than froggie, only thing making him balanced is....... SU27 from the other side- and that is haw balance have to be handled IMHO.
-
09-21-2007, 03:13 PM #30
- Join Date
- Nov 2005
- Posts
- 3,892
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
'How' not 'haw'!
Thread Information
Users Browsing this Thread
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)



Reply With Quote



Bookmarks