Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?

**Lucky Shot** · 09-21-2007, 03:20 PM

For balance issues, the Raptor has automatic lock on missles. There is a counterbalance to the missles being Smoke or being in the gunner position of the vehicle whereas there isn't any counterbalance to dumb fire bombs. The F22 rocket should be a 1 shot kill because it takes a lot more to get the kill.

Their were many things done to attempt to balance the air where Ukraine dominated it before. The handheld kits were improved, 2 gepards on maps where there are 2 Ukraine AA pieces (however the Gepard could no longer fire rounds and missles at the same time), alterations in jets guns, and alterations in bombs. Mercanerie, you feel strongly, you should post your thoughts on pointofexistence.com also where it will be read by more Dev's.

Lucky Shot

**MercenarieVVV** · 09-21-2007, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by sordavie

How about make air to ground ordinance more lethal but force planes and helicopters to land for a substantial time (20 or 25 seconds?) to rearm?

As for now reloading time for SU is (who knows exactly? ) something about 20-25 seconds even just to reload next pair of bombs Frogfoot have on the rails. So u can just forget about quick second bomb round. It is even just easier to go back for to reload , most likely u will just have next pair ready to use by than.

**MercenarieVVV** · 09-21-2007, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Lucky Shot

For balance issues, the Raptor has automatic lock on missles. There is a counterbalance to the missles being Smoke or being in the gunner position of the vehicle whereas there isn't any counterbalance to dumb fire bombs. The F22 rocket should be a 1 shot kill because it takes a lot more to get the kill.

Their were many things done to attempt to balance the air where Ukraine dominated it before. The handheld kits were improved, 2 gepards on maps where there are 2 Ukraine AA pieces (however the Gepard could no longer fire rounds and missles at the same time), alterations in jets guns, and alterations in bombs. Mercanerie, you feel strongly, you should post your thoughts on pointofexistence.com also where it will be read by more Dev's.

Lucky Shot

Well it does not kill from the first shot (only tanks) And u can use countermeasures, but u can slow down for enough time just to wait for the second lock

) and still have enough trust to escape ground

Also war load is 8 missiles instead of 4 bombs, from the close range ( and agility allows it) u can shoot without lock. It is actually almost invincible against ground shooting AA (ZSU or Shilka) and (as I usually do) u can come back and shot it down easily. And it can also handle decent AA combat... In all maps we have Frogy I'll take F22 against Frogy (even old one). Cause it will be able to handle both AA and ground combat missions.

Lucky I'm here just because u baned me

For... I guess being too good in the air

.

**FBmantis** · 09-21-2007, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by MercenarieVVV

And just for Mantis- if u meet F-22 or SU27 with good pilot who just look to down u.... Mantis u r so dead. Just two missile of 6, both have huge AA damage, powerful guns, perfect agility on high and low speed, enough speed to escape ground AA fire for both planes- helos have no chances

)

All the fighters should have the same missile properties...the devs mirrored that stuff. So the mig should be the same two of six long range and yes they should be quite deadly(Are they not?). I still say the eurofighter/tornado run around mostly invincible because no one will fly the mig now. Its no longer the point and click easy mode. Its similar to the old Hind....large learning curve and requires a certain style of play but once you learn it the rewards are plenty. That huge afterburner should be a major advantage if played right....escapes should be easy and intercepting air based on spots should be a breeze. Its when you play to the German jets strengths(dogfighting due to their manueverability) is when you get yourself in trouble.

**Lucky Shot** · 09-21-2007, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by MercenarieVVV

Lucky I'm here just because u baned me

For... I guess being too good in the air

.

Wrong on all counts.

Lucky Shot

**MercenarieVVV** · 09-21-2007, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by Lucky Shot

Wrong on all counts.

Lucky Shot

I know I know.
So I will stick with Star Rangers 2 Perezagruzka on this weekend. BF2 is way too easy after POE on TG server

)

**MercenarieVVV** · 09-21-2007, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by FBmantis

All the fighters should have the same missile properties...the devs mirrored that stuff. So the mig should be the same two of six long range and yes they should be quite deadly(Are they not?). I still say the eurofighter/tornado run around mostly invincible because no one will fly the mig now. Its no longer the point and click easy mode. Its similar to the old Hind....large learning curve and requires a certain style of play but once you learn it the rewards are plenty. That huge afterburner should be a major advantage if played right....escapes should be easy and intercepting air based on spots should be a breeze. Its when you play to the German jets strengths(dogfighting due to their manueverability) is when you get yourself in trouble.

Mantis- when u will unban me, please let us have one round of Air one on one and if u will match me on MIG vs. Eurofighter or Even Tornado i will never ever come back to the conversation about MIG.
Nobody takes MIG now because it is way too vulnerable for Eurofighter and can not hit anything instead. Huge afterburner will not help u to hit down any helo- u have to slow down just to get lock and wait for the flairs going out.
Actually , Mantis I can explain u standart MIG vs. Tiger and MIG vs Eurofighter fight and i personally do not see anyway MIG have even close abilities Eurofighter or even Tornado and F-18 have in AA combat.
As for afterburner. If u suggest too use it after u got radar message-at the time u got enough speed to break lock -u r down, and as long as u r not able to outmanoeuvre locking plane- u r down. And remember u can make just two launches by R-25 then u have to switch to R-60 (it takes time) and once again get lock and launch way weaker rockets, at a time when both Tornado and Eurofighter can just launch 3 or 4 rockets most of the pilots reload their AA rockets after each successful launch, just in case, so basically as for the medium range R-25 vs Sparrow, Eurofighter and Tornado have twice warload advantage... so where is the catch... What advantage u have. Did u ever tried to catch helo on the lock on the high speed?? or catch Eurofighter??
I still have strong believe MIG is way downgraded plane comparing to both Germans. It is even worse than Frogie.

**Namebot** · 09-21-2007, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by MercenarieVVV

Haw often do u kill tanks by the gun from a first burst??? Haw do u aim at them , considering camouflage?
If u shoot any other target than tank or APC fighter guns have absolutely same effectiveness. And unguided missiles look to have more splash damage than bombs (ridiculus).
Haw long can u survive in the air if other team have planes with decent pilots in the air?
I'm pretty much sure Tornado have same or about the same power in his guns. And it is way more survivable tank. So if u stick with guns only it will still be way superior.

Tank is down with first burst >90% of the time.

Use the bomb sight to locate the tank, line it up, switch to guns, and fire.

With good pilots in the air, I can't survive too long unless I have good support from the hinds and/or AA. I still manage to get a kill or two on almost every take off.

Has the tornado guns been changed alot? Last time I used it against tanks it didn't light up the hit indicator because it was doing 0 damage.

**Braidedheadman** · 09-21-2007, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by FBmantis

All the fighters should have the same missile properties...the devs mirrored that stuff. So the mig should be the same two of six long range and yes they should be quite deadly(Are they not?). I still say the eurofighter/tornado run around mostly invincible because no one will fly the mig now. Its no longer the point and click easy mode. Its similar to the old Hind....large learning curve and requires a certain style of play but once you learn it the rewards are plenty. That huge afterburner should be a major advantage if played right....escapes should be easy and intercepting air based on spots should be a breeze. Its when you play to the German jets strengths(dogfighting due to their manueverability) is when you get yourself in trouble.

QFT.

The MIG is and has always been an interceptor, not a fighter. The MIG can easily break target acquisition and even lock by slamming the afterburner and hitting the ceiling. It's gone and out of sight in under 2 seconds. Circle back while the EF2000 is scratching his head, take up his six, and spam missiles. Dead EF2000. Rinse and repeat.

There's a saying in flight circles, "Altitude is life." No where is this more true than for the MIG where it can accelerate to insane speeds in the blink of an eye. The other jets won't have time to complete a lock. But more than that, at the speeds the MIG can achieve, you're actually outrunning their missiles even if they do get a lock, provided you jam the AB and stick to a straight course.

More often than not, though, I see people trying to tighten their turning radius in the MIG at low altitudes with their afterburners. This is a huge mistake, becuase you eventually run out of AB without having shaken the EF2000 (or the Tornado, for that matter) and now you're stuck playing out a dogfight on its own turf.

Like Mantis just said, with the MIG, fly the jet to its strengths; don't try to match the other jet's.

The other thing to keep in mind is that both the EF2000 and the Tornado only have 4 A2A missiles. They can't be spammed for a near gauranteed kill like a fighter with 6 missiles can.

Finally, I really like the idea of forcing pilots to land and extending the time that it takes to repair and rearm. I've never quite understood why BF2 didn't require this of its pilots from day 1. The insta-reloads by just flying over the tarmac have always bothered me. It just doesn't make any sense.

**MercenarieVVV** · 09-22-2007, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Braidedheadman

QFT.

The MIG is and has always been an interceptor, not a fighter. The MIG can easily break target acquisition and even lock by slamming the afterburner and hitting the ceiling. It's gone and out of sight in under 2 seconds. Circle back while the EF2000 is scratching his head, take up his six, and spam missiles. Dead EF2000. Rinse and repeat.

There's a saying in flight circles, "Altitude is life." No where is this more true than for the MIG where it can accelerate to insane speeds in the blink of an eye. The other jets won't have time to complete a lock. But more than that, at the speeds the MIG can achieve, you're actually outrunning their missiles even if they do get a lock, provided you jam the AB and stick to a straight course.

More often than not, though, I see people trying to tighten their turning radius in the MIG at low altitudes with their afterburners. This is a huge mistake, because you eventually run out of AB without having shaken the EF2000 (or the Tornado, for that matter) and now you're stuck playing out a dogfight on its own turf.

Like Mantis just said, with the MIG, fly the jet to its strengths; don't try to match the other jet's.

The other thing to keep in mind is that both the EF2000 and the Tornado only have 4 A2A missiles. They can't be spammed for a near guaranteed kill like a fighter with 6 missiles can.

Finally, I really like the idea of forcing pilots to land and extending the time that it takes to repair and rearm. I've never quite understood why BF2 didn't require this of its pilots from day 1. The insta-reloads by just flying over the tarmac have always bothered me. It just doesn't make any sense.

I wonder if u or Mantis really tried to use this technicke? Just to get u some idea, sky is way bigger than land in POE and having alt over 300 will make u fly for fun , just because u will not see anybody no helos go over 50(normally) Eurofighters and Tornadoes just dive up and down. So haw r u gonna catch them??? Sometimes u have to wait entire round before somebody will spot u helo or plane. Eventually u will go down-and where is your alt advantage??? Afterburner will never!!!! give u speed instantly and u can only outrun the rocket or lock if u have pretty big distances between u and locking plane . In case distance is not that big- it will not help u. And agile plane as Eurofighter can easily sneak your six from the wide angle, as it is way more agile.

But it is not the mane point. Even u just suggest to use technique of survival, and not the dominating. U just telling me haw to survive, allowing German planes to rule the sky u just hope to get something from your intercepting tactics. And as I said before MIG has same 4 R25 but u need to wait before reload them. And R-60- is junk.

**Braidedheadman** · 09-22-2007, 03:08 PM

While I admit I don't like the Ukraine equipment as much as the other factions and haven't flown the Frogfoot or the MIG as much as some people, I can honestly say it's not because of their now alleged uselessness. I just don't like the faction as much; I find it harder to relate to or something, I guess. I'm weird that way. Even when the German teams where getting slaughtered and jets like the EF2000 and the Tornado were little more than flying coffins; even when the VEPR (different topic, I know, but it serves to illustrate my point) ruled the roost, I still preferred to play the German side as opposed to the Ukraine. I like to pick a faction and stick with it through thick and thin. But lately I have been trying to make a point of trying out the aircraft on both sides of the fence. And, frankly, I just don't see where the problems lie.

With that said, I have flown the Frogfoot to enough to know that it's not all "that bad". I'm not the best with it and I'm a little rough with it still, but I do know that with a little more practice, I can make that bird deliver some serious punishment. I believe that most of the complaints that people now have against the jet is that it's no longer the point farming tool that it once was and still expect it to net them some kills in a single pass each and every time. Same with the MIG and its R20 (long range) A2A missiles, which were at one time a guaranteed easy, 1-shot-kill "I win!!" button for the MIG.

The reason I say that is because both the Frogfoot and the MIG still have a number of things going for them. For instance, the Frogfoot is still pretty deft at avoiding enemy fire with smart use of flares and evasive maneuvers in combination. Sometimes I catch myself wondering if it's not coated with Teflon or why all four missiles missed completely even when no flares were used. And with only 4 A2A missiles each, both the Tornado and the EF2000 have to place their shots carefully and must often fall back on guns in order finish off either the MIG or the Frogfoot. I also know that a pair of well-placed bombs will still bring a fresh tank to death's door; an easy-to-kill target after a short loop and a pass overhead with either rockets or even the nose cannon.

The MIG has its uber-afterburners, which accelerate it to 3000 KPH (and more) in just the blink of an eye and can sustain those speeds for a long time. Having to fly at low altitudes is marginalized by the MIG's rate of climb with the afterburners pushing the jet to top speeds. Where the other jets might see 1700 KPH up high if they really tax their after burners toward the end of their useful burn time, the MIG's max speed only seems to be limited by the amount of room it has on the map to fly a straight line without going OOB. A pilot trying to play catch-up with the MIG is the inverse of the MIG trying to dogfight; no only is it impossible once the MIG has vanished beyond draw distance, it's (foolishly) playing the MIG's strengths.

The point is that speed is a different form of survivability than maneuverability is in a tight turning radius. The best way for the MIG to dogfight is to not dogfight at all and the best way for jets to be successful on any of the three factions is to work together to compliment their strengths and weaknesses.

Now, that's not to say that I don't believe that jets like the Frogfoot couldn't use some tuning. As above, I suggest that the nose cannon needs a little more kick to it. For a dedicated CAS jet, the Frog's forward firing arc is a little on the weak side. I would like to see the nose cannon either not overheat quite as fast as it does, increase the damage that it delivers at the center of the crosshair, or some combination of the two in order to extend the Frog's versatility a little.

As for catching helo's are we still talking about the Frogfoot? or the MIG? Because the Frogfoot shouldn't really be chasing those in the first place. That's what the MIG is for. And as far as that goes, I will agree with you in that the chopper teams still don't fear the dedicated fighter jets quite nearly as much as they should. I also agree that the ground troops who, at the same time that they complain about a rampaging chopper overhead, won't spot enemy aircraft for allied airpower to intercept probably deserve the pounding they receive (those of you who do help out, sorry if I arrive a little late sometimes

). But those are topics for another PoE2 tuning thread and another day.

At the end of the day, all I am saying is that I agree that the Frogfoot could use a little bit of buff. Just not by increasing the damage that the bombs do as most would like to see. That, IMHO, will only lead to another imbalanced jet and drive people away from playing PoE2, which I am sure nobody here wants to see.

**BaneII** · 09-22-2007, 05:30 PM

My point is that the Frogfoot has been reduced to uselessness since 1.7. I don't have a data sheet to compare the differences of the old bombs with the new. From what I know, two sticks of C4 has a better blast radius to kill a tank than two bombs dropped from what is supposed to be a bomber. Totally illogical in my book. Two Frogfoot bombs should be equivalent to the blast radius of a single artillery shell. Unless someone thinks the artillery is too powerful and unbalanced?

Originally Posted by Braidedheadman

Well, first of all, you forgot to mention that the guided missiles can be spoofed by smoke pops.

Originally Posted by Lucky Shot

There is a counterbalance to the missles being Smoke or being in the gunner position of the vehicle whereas there isn't any counterbalance to dumb fire bombs.

It's a fact that the missiles fire faster than armor flares reload. So all the jet pilot does is loop back and kills the armor while it still reloading. The helo pilots just hover in place and either wait for the flares to disperse or fires the non-guided armament. You really think that is a counterbalance? Improve the reload time of the armor and then we will see some skill but as of right now it's a turkey shoot for the pilots. That's why people don't like to use armor on air maps because you are at a significant disadvantage. I certainly don't see you pilots running around in armor because clearly you prefer the aircraft for some reason.

Actually a better idea would be for armor to have two to three sets of flares ready for use. Then they could reload after those are used up, just like the A2G missiles.

Originally Posted by Braidedheadman

The key difference between bombs and guided missiles as far as PoE goes is that bombs can be dropped with extreme precision, for which there is no viable counter except to shoot the pilot out of the sky before he completes his run.

I can tell you don't use the mobile AA because you don't understand how to fight against aircraft from the ground. Regardless of whether something trying to kill you is guided or unguided, the most important thing to survivability is to keep moving and use the environment as cover. I can use the Ukrainian SA-13, which has ZERO countermeasures, extremely effective against German aircraft, which all have guided munitions, because I know how to maneuver. And I don't switch seats or jump out because I enjoy the challenge. This was from last night going against the Tornado, Eurochopter, and NH-90:

Now if I can do this without countermeasures against guided munitions, I sure can do it a lot easier against unguided munitions. That's why using the Gepard against the Frogfoot was a non-issue. And the same tactics I use to stay alive in mobile AA is the same I use for any other piece of armor. Of course with open maps like Guardian and Highway, maneuvering is your only option due to lack of landscape. But to say there is no viable counter is incorrect.

Originally Posted by Braidedheadman

But for now, at the end of the day, it's just easier and more efficient to place dumb bombs than it is to wait for the lock, wait for the flares to clear, reacquire lock, and launch a missile that has absolutely no guarantee of a fist-hit-kill (apart from the Tornado's LGB).

Flying a jet and delivering a pinpoint payload is easier than a gunner sitting around and left-clicking to shoot a guided missile? I think the majority of folks here at TG know I am not a pilot. I don't touch the jets since I don't have the skill to pilot one. Now I have sat in the gunner's seat and picked off targets with my guided missiles as Viper does all the hard work of flying. The reason that I don't fly is lack of skill. To infer that delivering unguided munitions in a jet is easier than left-clicking on lock is simply ludicrous. In that case, give me back my guided AT missile from BF2 that I could hit targets across the map with because these unguided AT projectiles we now use are, from your assertions, too easy to kill with.

Originally Posted by Braidedheadman

A skilled pilot, however, can and will make a kill, or come very near to it, on the first run without interuption just about every time, flares and smoke pops notwithstanding.

Originally Posted by Sawviper

In my opinion the reason the Frogfoot was nerfed was what has been discussed earlier, an average player getting a 8:1 K/D ratio.

Originally Posted by Sawviper

Actually I remember flying in the Frogfoot many a times and putting up very high K/D ratios. And I think I am below normal in flying skills.

Aye, there's the rub. Braided says it takes a skilled pilot to make a kill everytime. Then isn't that punishing for skill? Sawviper says he's below normal in flying. Yet is that true if he can get the plane to a target to deliver a payload unlike myself? Once again, I'm not for instituting the original Frogfoot. I'm saying the toning of the Frogfoot was over done. Especially since we are trying to balance skill vs. power.

Originally Posted by FBmantis

There was nothing to it and the amount of armor it was taking down with ease was completely shaping maps. We didn't run Guardian anymore because there was no point to use the armor as Germany....Sambir was similar.

Well, I would look at that as a map imbalance. Evidently, there should have been more Gepards included so the Germans could cover such large areas. One of my main gripes with POE2 is that it floods a map with aircraft and doesn't include enough anti-air. Those two maps aren't the only ones guilty of that.

Originally Posted by FBmantis

Viper with the frogfoot however could put up numbers like this. (I see your AA domination which helps but the point is still there) Average pilots would easily get 60-70 kills. Again though...its more than the kill count...one team was able to utilize their armor...the other wasn't. This shapes the ground battle and even teams on paper would result in big ukr wins.

I would point to that round as a lack of anti-air on Germany so it's not surprising that Viper ran up the scoreboard. The Gepard is quite capable of suppressing the Frogfoot. There was no reason that the Gepard couldn't do the same thing I was doing for Ukraine, downing enemy aircraft. The overall problem is that players refuse to man the anti-air, whatever the map. If your doing your job right, you either rack up high K/D's or prevent enemy aircraft from killing your teammates. Either way, it's a positive for your team. I've been beating the anti-air drum since they finally fixed the AA missiles many moons ago. However, I still see it sitting unused most of the time or used incorrectly. I'm not sure how to rectify that.

Whew. Long post. I don't expect anything to change. Just participating in an exchange of ideas.

**Greasy Mullet** · 09-22-2007, 06:40 PM

I can use tanks counters rather well to evade. It is all about timing and knowing the area you are in. You cant just pop smoke and sit there hoping the attacker goes to another target. You need to either find better cover, call in support, or engage the chopper if you can. Of course non of this is 100% nor should it be. But at the very least you slow down the choppers rampage, leave it sitting and vulnerable, and get a fighting chance against it.

**Braidedheadman** · 09-22-2007, 08:31 PM

And therein lies the crux of the matter. You read too deeply into my argument, my friend.

When I spoke of countermeasures, I was referring to flares and the like specifically, not about MAA or other team-based forms of it. The simple point that I meant to address was that the guided missiles can be spoofed with the simple press of a button. One-on-one, there is no such countermeasure for a tank (read: not MAA, though when taken by surprise or distracted, they go down easier) vs an aircraft delivering unguided munitions. No amount of flare pops are going to save a tank once a pilot has a bead on his target with unguided bombs at the ready.

But while we're on it, you make a good argument by showing that proper defenses are team-based rather than strictly a matter of smoke pops and flares. However, if you haven't flown at all, I really don't see how you can say my claim that precision bombing is easier than guided weapons is ludicrous. It is easier for the reasons stated above.

Where guided weapons can be spoofed, and in fact are spoofed and miss on a regular basis, a precisely dropped spread of bombs will hit their target every time provided only that the pilot is precisely correct in gauging his approach and the timing their release. I really want to be clear on this. That's every time; not some of the time, not spoofed by flares; never missing their mark. As you pointed out, the only countermeasure against that is having someone sitting in MAA, or hefting MANPAD on some hill nearby, etc. In other words, the tank that's in trouble is relying on other people to save his butt. He hasn't a prayer on his own.

What could be easier than an all but guaranteed hit? The simple fact of the matter is that unguided bombs are more efficient tank killers, even now after the nerf. And people want that to be a one-shot-kill vs a fresh tank on a group of loosely packed bombs every 30-40 seconds (or however long it takes to RTB and rearm)? Is that not the very definition of ludicrous? If not, then explain how it was that the Frogfoot was able to get away with as much as it did in the past and why air maps were almost never played.

Also, you'll pardon me if I dismiss your arty comments out of hand. You're comparing apples to oranges. I've only used arty a handful of times myself, but it's clear that they don't have anywhere near the mobility that aircraft do and are further handicapped by line of sight issues. More over, they can only be resupplied with supply crates. Not to mention they are essentially firing blind with every shot, predicting where they think their target will be when the next shell arrives. These are two very different field assets and I don't really see where you're going with this.

More to the point, however, how does giving pilots, who are capable of flying in such a way as to deliver precision bombing; how does it improve the game by giving them more powerful bombs that are sure to destroy ground targets in the first pass at the click of a button - every time short of their being shot down? I say it doesn't. The past, I think, vindicates my point of view here. No jet needs that kind of power. It killed the air maps before and I don't want to see it happen again.

Does the Frogfoot need a buff? I say yes, it does but through variety in its arsenal to make up for its sluggishness in the air. But does it need yet more powerful bombs? No. No jet does. In fact, if I had my way, I'd like to see unguided bombs go away altogether. But people say that would be boring. /shrug.

**MercenarieVVV** · 09-22-2007, 11:21 PM

OK.
For Mantis and all who "loves" MIG. Today I flied about one hour both MIG and SU.
1. Interceptor tactics for MIG-suck!!!! Even if u know where is your target u do not have a time to follow either helo or plane even if u got lock flairs make it useless. It is simply impossible to lock down Eurofighter-simple horizontal manoeuvre and u loose your lock. Even if u had lock- u loose it after second or firs shot. U do not have time to use your afterburner!!!! Just listen guys- form about 15 locks I escaped may be 2 0r 3 by accelerating and using flairs at the same time all other time I got at list one rocket at my butt. Simply trying to turn with afterburner is way more effective, but the problem is -still Eurofighter have u in site, and kills u after afterburner ends. Going up does not work as well as if u did not started twist on 500 -u will loose control. Basically- I tried several approaches -interceptor-awful, maneuverable- u can make one kill before down if Eurofighters did not see u, mix-almost the same. So I was downed 16 times killing 3 helos. Next round I got eurofighter and first damage(not kill) I got from Ukraine was on my 22 kills...... I died once when was rammed by teammate.

2 SU25- In the plane map u really can use gun to down tank- but it is only if tank does not moves to escape a fire. Still u have rockets between Bombs and Guns and that means that u will not hit anything faster than APC. Bombs does not kill fresh tank- I bombed our tanks on the parking lot and checked result by the back camera- direct bomb hit can kill a tank anything else will not kill even APC. If there are planes in the air- SU is flying coffin as well as MIG, but I admit u can have K/D ratio about 1/1 may be 1/3 if enemy planes just do not care about u.

3. U do not need even AA rockets to down SU- both Eurofighter and Tornado easily down him by gun. I did not allow guys to fly over 1 minute in my site. Eurofighter escapes both AA fire from the ground (except SA) and air locks way too easy.

The main point of what I say.
My point is.
UKRAINE HAS VERY VERY ANBALANCED AIR SUPPORT!!!!

Your point is.
IF U R BRIGHT OR EXCELENT PILOT U CAN STILL USE THIS JUNK SOMEWAY TO HAVE COUPLE KILLS.

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