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09-19-2007, 12:20 AM #1
Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
Hi.
I didn't see if anybody noticed, but it is clear that SU25 and MIG 25 are simply unplayable.
SU25 caring 4 FAB 250 (as KAB have to be laser guided-Korektiruemmaya means guided in Russian) can not hit anything. Not only SU have awfully long time to reload bombs, but damage was reduce awkwardly. Quick example- i put two bombs on Gepard- Gepard is right between explosions and very much alive. Just imagine even one 250 killos bomb next to Abrams for example. What would happen in reality???
And MIG just does not have any chances against Eurofighter simply because his R-25 now have the same damage as Eurofighters Sparrows(but in reality R-25 have twice bigger warload). It was not agile plane before and only thing that made it worthy was rocket damage. Now as Eurofighter has way more powerful AA rockets and MIG's rockets downgraded where is no balance at all.
And here we are.
I see haw people just leave Ukrainian planes on the ground after being down several times never hitting anything back.
I know that TG guys cooperate with POE makers. May be they will point their attention on this. As they can change MIG25 on SU27 at some maps they still have to do something with SU25 ground attack -or rename bombs-let it be FAB 50 (still way too powerful to take down any AA)
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09-19-2007, 02:48 AM #2
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
Frogfoots bombs are definitely a bit too weak now...for now just use the main gun...it works nicely. The days of dominating in the jet are over but I still see guys like namebot and a few others put up 3-1 K/D ratios in the frogfoot.
MIG should have same missile effectiveness as the other fighters. You just have to fly it like an interceptor...use that high speed!|TG-12th|mantis


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09-19-2007, 11:26 AM #3
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
Well as for MIG- high speed does not work against Eurofighters. In the same level pilots situations Eurofighter just leaves no chances to MIG. I had two round where I totally lost to same pilot using MIG and than just devastate him using Eurofighter. And well interceptor have to have powerful rockets otherwise it is not an interceptor.
As for SU NURS (not NAR-Ne Upravlyaemaja Raketnaya Sistemma-that how it sounds in Russian) are way more useful than gun. But indeed I can use F22 or SU27 gun with the same effectiveness and have K/D 1/20. What is the point to have a bomber??? Actually it is way more likely to destroy armor vehicles by NURS than by the bomb. BUT!!!! If u have god pilot from the other side-SU25 is a piece of junk as well as if they brought Gepard- u will not be able to destroy it before he destroys u. In fact Gepard will have huge advantage against SU even in situation where SU knows for sure his location.
And it is sad, because from the other side planes became stronger. i do believe that there were no balance before- SU was way better than Tornado, but my opinion that they had to do something with Tornado, and not the SU, and as for Eurofighter vs. Mig- I'm pretty sure it was totally balanced before, and I do not see a point , why they changed it.
And last one. Did u noticed that SU27 has such low air intakes that it often hit obstacles when your cabin is like couple yards over it?
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09-19-2007, 02:11 PM #4
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
I always argue that the weaker counterpart should be upgraded to be balanced with the stronger counterpart instead of downgrading the stronger to be balanced with the weaker. PoE got its great reputation because it had deadlier weapons and vehicles than vanilla BF2. In my opinion we are slowly moving away from that reputation as the devs are taking our mod in the reality direction instead of gameplay direction. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the tactical play on TG very much but there are many other players who don't have the time or skill and just want to play the mod once in a while without making a career out of it.
I very much agree with you Mercenarie as it is just stupid that a bomber has to use its machine gun to be effective and the bombs it carries have a hard time destroying an AA vehiclewhich can shoot a bomber down in 2 seconds flat. The EF bombs should have gotten upgraded to match those of the Froggy and not the other way around.
While PoE is now a lot more infantry friendly thanks to the nerfing, and therefore TG-friendly, it is not what got me and many others playing the mod. It used to be the kind of game where you didn't have to play it every day to be good at it and I can't say the same thing about it now. I will always love PoE and that is why I joined the tester team and try to play and promote it as often as I can. I thought I can give the dev team some insight from a regular, non-l33t Joe Shmoe point of view but the mod seems to be steered in the tactical ground warfare direction more with every new release. This is extremely frustrating to many fly-boys and chopper whores (like myself) who once in a while like to connect to a random server and have a good chopper or bombing session. This in turn drives many of the original PoE players and fans away from the mod.
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09-19-2007, 02:35 PM #5
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
Doobie I am not sure where you are coming from or what has been that drastic of a change since our first release that takes us more into a "realism" and more inf based game.
The froggy was so over powered before that servers had modded it out. When that happens, you know you have a serious issue. Perhaps we over fixed it but as with anything in the mod, we are ALWAYS working to improve it. Balance is an overall picture and increasing ALL the other vehicles in the mod to be on par with the froggy was not the answer as it would have broken things even more. Short answer is that the froggy was broke, not working as we intended, and we attempted to fix the issue.
Our last release had a pure inf map in Risen but it had Crimea which was a mix of combined arms and then we also had Berezan which had ALL the toys as well as tons of aircraft. Lets not forget Odessa which provided a ground game in an urban environment but retained a massive amount of air power. I just do not see where you are coming from to be honest with reguards to the maps. Of course with our new new maps, most of them are urban from what has been seen in the news but that is not taking away from previous maps but rather filling the void of map types in the mod.
We always are grateful for feedback but I take exception to the map comments.
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09-19-2007, 04:19 PM #6
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
O great , so u r the one to blame

I love Odessa air warfare -by my opinion -ti is the most balanced air combat map in whole game. Island is also not bad, but bit advantage goes to Ukraine with their SA sometimes it makes impossible to fly for American pilots, and they do not have good ground attack plane. By my opinion F-18 have to carry bombs to match ground attack SU27, while F-22 ground attack plane is good counterpart to SU27.
I agree-SU25 was way too powerful but the same bomb drop rate u have with their previous lethality will make it twice less powerful isn't it?
Not to mention that it needs way more skill just to hit a target now
). Still for now SU25 is totally useless and has huge disadvantage against Eurofighter and big disadvantage against Tornado. By my opinion for Tornado u should either increase rocket hit probability or give him normal bombs and make it F-15 SU-30 analog of original BF2.(in this case it will be probably balanced with increased lethality SU25).
And the last point. SU25 was too powerful just because it was easy to use and good pilot without good counterpart was able to devastate enemy. But from the other hand good pilots from the other side always had AA advantage and with good team tactic Germany always had means to counter it. I mean it was always balanced as long as Germany just pointed some attention to AA warfare. See Tornado was able to easily take SU down at any time as well as Eurofighter.
In original BF both DC and BF2 plane r also very powerful gear, but nobody complaints as long as they can match each other and ground defence. So may be u should stick to the policy of matching planes lethality and ground AA defence. Bad pilots were not able to do anything with old Frogie ( actually Russians call it blackbird
- Gratch ).
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09-19-2007, 04:42 PM #7
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
hmmm... I don't think I named a single map in my post and I never would as I love every single map made by you guys. I am strictly talking about the nerfing of planes & choppers (and some weapons) in order to improve the gameplay of ground troops. I also probably shouldn't have used 'reality' to describe the mods direction as quite frankly there is nothing real about a bomb having near zero splash damage (or having to fire 2 AA missiles to take out a chopper). I should have used "TG direction" instead of "reality Direction"
. The froggy has always been powerful in every single mod or game that featured it and should've been left that way in PoE... It's slow enough to be taken out with ease by numerous choppers, jets and stingers. I've never seen it modded out of any maps before so if it was I don't know that it was that big of an issue mod-wide. But enough about that as you said that wasn't intentional. I just haven't heard that from the devs before and this simple issue wasn't fixed in 1.8 so I thought you were gonna leave it that way, which would be a shame. Now that I know, we'll take this conversation into the tester forums where things like this should be discussed.
Just one more thing that bothers me. I've seen outrageous KDRs by average players used as an excuse to nerf stuff... perhaps we should nerf all of the weapons then, as I still see players with 5:1 - 8:1 KDR playing on the TG server all the time. You must realize that some of the players are gods in jets while sucking terribly at infantry play and the other way around, while there are others who are amazing at both. I know balancing is always an issue but as long as you will have real humans playing you will never get it right as there is no single round that is the same as the next. It all very often depends on your team's player load-out and how good or disorganized the other team is... not much to do with how strong and powerful the weapons, jets, and choppers are imo.
Please don't take any of this as an attack or personally as these are strictly my opinions and some overheard comments on OBS and other random servers. Unfortunately the majority of these people don't voice their opinions on any forums and therefore get overlooked.
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09-19-2007, 09:20 PM #8
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
Just food for thought...
Is it the burden of the player to practice and develop his or her skills in a particular area of the game where they are weak, or is it the burden of the developers to take this into account and balance the game accordingly?
I would say that the players who are deficient in one area but are exceptional in another need to devote some time to practicing so that they too can become amazing at both. That's not a developer or game balance issue. Just sayin'.
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09-20-2007, 12:18 AM #9
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
I agree with you you Slick and that is the reason why I play TG a lot more lately... to develop my inf skills. Unfortunately that is a long way coming and like I said, there are many other players who don't have the time or skill and just want to play the mod once in a while without making a career out of it. Some just give up trying if they know they are much better in the air than on the ground, and they rather do what they are good at naturally in the limited playtime they have.
I believe that the Froggy was initially nerfed because an average infantry player (like myself) could get into it and achieve a 5:1 - 8:1 KDR in a single round. I don't see anything wrong with that and never bothered me on the receiving end. A bomber pilot should have that kind of KDR if he flies it smart! I wouldn't get a high score if I mindlessly just take it out for a spin and bomb a bunch of triangles. If I did it would only be because the other team didn't utilize their AA and air assets properly. So while I can rarely get a 1:1 KDR on the ground with the right planning and tactics I could go tenfold in a bomber. To me it seemed that because of players like me the Frogfoot got nerfed, but nobody ever thought of taking a look at the AA performance of the opposing team in most cases. Perhaps it didn't take much practice to be a good bomber pilot but it took a lot of wit and tactics which not that many players posses. The Froggy should've never got touched in the first place.
Last edited by Doobster; 09-20-2007 at 12:20 AM. Reason: spelling
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09-20-2007, 10:47 AM #10
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
In my opinion the reason the Frogfoot was nerfed was what has been discussed earlier, an average player getting a 8:1 K/D ratio. There is no reason in BF2 that some average player should be basically ruining the gameplay for the rest of the team singlehandedly. The way it is now to get a high K/D ratio in the Frogfoot you need to be good. Which is the way it should be since basically all you are doing is lonewolfing if there is no commander. On TG we stress teamwork and frankly some single seater kill machine is not about teamwork.
|TG-12th| Sawviper

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09-20-2007, 11:57 AM #11
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
The reason that the Frogfoot was racking up the kills was because no one on the German team would handle the anti-air duties. The Frogfoot is the slowest plane in the game, has no guided missiles, so it is very easy to down. However, players find it easier to whine than to actually do something about it. When I use the Gepard, the Hind gives me way more problems than the Frogfoot ever could even with the best pilot. The problem wasn't the Frogfoot, the problem was the lack of teamwork on the German side. I put blame on the German pilots too because few of them seem to realize that their responsibilities include downing the enemy aircraft, not just killing ground targets. Nowadays, the Frogfoot is pretty much ineffective. I've seen the Eurofighter bomb more effectively than the Frogfoot. This was definitely an over response in the wrong direction.
If you want to talk about racking up high K/D ratios, what about the anti-material rifle? Now that is a no skill weapon. Wow, one shot anywhere on the body and you get a kill. I've been killed by that thing 100x more than by the Frogfoot, yet I never hear anyone talk about removing it from the game.-33rd- BaneII
Smokers & Jokers
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09-20-2007, 12:42 PM #12
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
Exactly my opinion.
It is not funny that now Eurofighter has 1/20 K/D ratio. And actually Ukraine at some maps just have nothing to put him down. May be downgrade Eurofighter????? Let's see where is two maps with Germany having Eurofighter or Tornado, and Ukraine just MIG25 or SU 25and Shilkas along with ZSU. Considering that MIG25 totally suck against Eurofighter, SU25 have no AA opportunity at all and Shilka and ZSU suck against quick plane(by the way the repair rate of Tornado is awfully high) . Germany have invincible planes and Ukraine just have to stick with the ground. Now we have huge Air disbalance to the German side. Eurofighters have KD ratio of 1/10 at list and Ukranian planes stay on the ground.
IMHO- Frogie was so powerful because nobody gave a s**t about AA duties. Once I got 12 SU kills in a game by Tiger - low flying SU was just a piece of cake for the Tiger team. And now SU is totally useless.
And about K/D. For about one year I had K/D of 1/22 -1/25 as a pilot in BF2 and most of good pilots have at list 1/10. So?????
In DC (HSS)House had 1/80 average using SU25 -easily getting down F-16 and F-15. So what??? Make somebody fly and keep them busy- this is a tactical game, isn't it?
So in the end of a day , I hope it was not the last patch and they will change situation.... Still where were testings. Nobody noticed huge, unbelievable dis balance to the German planes side?
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09-20-2007, 04:39 PM #13
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
Honestly Mercanerie, the Frogfoot was a problem where less then average pilots were going 60 and 4. The reason why it wasn't tested as heavily was we did brief testing on it, but none of the new maps have the frogfoot and we certainly didn't test it under 64 player conditions like we do at TG. Doobster, your a tester. Perhaps it's time to bump this thread again.
I think all the bombers need a little more A2G strength. Not to where it was before, but somewhere in between.
Lucky Shot
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09-20-2007, 05:03 PM #14
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
Finally.... Thank you Bane for confirming my theory. Sawviper repeated exactly what I said was bothering me so I started questioning my communication skills, but you reassured me that i'm not the only one feeling the way I do.
Let me put this in other words for him. I've seen average players in the old Froggy and not many would get a high KDR if they didn't use good bombing tactics and strategy or if the enemy AA assets were properly used. It was also important to have your team spot ground units for you or you would have to fly around looking for targets yourself. So explain to me why you would call that lone-wolfing and not air support.
So on one hand tactics are promoted yet on the other we get punished for executing them. It's kind of like a request to nerf Mantis, Lucky and Santa and the weapons they use because they are successful tactical players. Makes absolutely no sense.
@Mercenarie
I think you have your KD ratio numbers backwards, K = Kill, D = Death so the numbers you mention should've been in that order.
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09-20-2007, 05:37 PM #15
Re: Whats going on with Ukrainian planes?
Actually I remember flying in the Frogfoot many a times and putting up very high K/D ratios. And I think I am below normal in flying skills. I don't remember saying anything in my post about that I agreed about how much the Frogfoot was nerfed. I think I was saying I thought that 8:1 K/D ratios are not conductive to letting everyone on the server enjoy their night when any idiot can rack up those numbers.
I am just not a real big fan of one type of equipment that all of a sudden makes someone able to basically grief the rest of the opposing players. I think Bane made a good point about the Anti Material rifles, they are sort of a no skill weapon as was the Frogfoot previously. With the added pickup AA kits and the addition of more mobile AA the Frogfoot has just had a little too much of its bite taken away.
I personally would increase the damage of the bombs so a near hit would set a tank on fire. Or even better return the Frogfoot's carpet bombing ability and take away the targeting huds from the screen making the pilot rely on spots and commander spotting.|TG-12th| Sawviper

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