fuzzhead

0.7 changes WILL be making some major pacing changes.... mainly like bernout said, it will be slowing the pace. removing mobile spawnpoints will do this, and I think the result will be quite a different experience, one that allows many more realistic tactics to be played out at a more deliberate and less gamey pace.

lone manning a tank in 0.7 will be very ineffective if your mobile. there will be a long delay between jumping seats (probably 30 seconds) so that means for 30 seconds you will NOT be able to fire your weapons. this is fine for defensive vehicles such as APC's on basrahs VCP, but it will be very bad news for players who LOVE to lonewolf in tanks, regardless of whether there is a dedicated armor squad or not (rrrrrkkkkk im looking at you on this one)

Ferris Bueller

Guys, it's called PROJECT Reality for a reason: the fact that its a project seems to come to mind, as in something ongoing. Keep in mind that the BF2 engine has some pretty steep limitations on what we can and cant code into the game (how many thousands of people have been crying over the impossibility that is fastroping?)

For the armor, I think that the big switch time is a must have. Theres absolutely no reason for anyone to ever switch to the third seat, which IMO is useless anyway. You have a super-accurate triple zoom MG on the tank barrel, why do we need a roof mounted minigun? But thats poshy nonsense from me, not to be worried about. Too many people abuse the armor in its current capacity, no more one man tanks will be a blessing. That has to be one of my biggest pet peeves with the game in its current form.

As far as removing mobile spawnpoints, perhaps some coding branch on flag radius would be more appropriate than losing the function altogether. What I mean by that is that an APC can only serve as a mobile spawn point within a certain radius of a UCB or firebase, thus indicating that a redeployment of ground troops will take much longer should the poor soul in the APC venture too far from his necessary support element.

As for rally points, I think two knife swings is too easy as well. However, in contrast to the two to three clips of small arms fire it used to take (I'm a medic, I dont have grenades, sue me), its a major improvement.

I'd also like to see some limitation on the ability to drive vehicles. A big problem we've been seeing a lot of lately on the PR server is the guy who grabs a medic kit, drives around in a humvee/vodnik with the singular intention of running people over. He's a one man wrecking machine because he self-heals while driving. Bad juju. This isnt to say that the self-heal should be removed, but that the ability to drive should be limited to people with operational knowledge of driving vehicles, like officers and engineers. Just a small take that might add to the flavor of things.

Now, all that being said, and based on what fuzz has said, the only real sticking issue I see is the big map-big ticket problem. Take Kashan for example. The typical game lasts an hour or more. I've seen them go for almost 3. If we slow the pace significantly enough by removing mobile spawns from APCs, it's going to take FOREVER to transport an entire team across the map. Granted, this is largely due to the fact that we mainly play the 32p version because the A-10 is still an unmitigated death machine and warps the game quite badly, but it's still rough and would take all day seeing that change alone.

Maybe the solution lies in expanding the map selection (maybe we get permission to make a mod of kashan 32p with more assets and different spawn times for 0.7...having the blackhawk appear at 20 mins in doesnt help anything, but if it was there in the beginning plus maybe an extra APC, its entirely possible to run a decent game) to fit the playstyle. Bottom line as I see it is that slowing the pace is going to make small maps more challenging and empty the server on big ones. I know long games can be fun, but if I wanted to play one map for 4-6 hours straight, I'd be playing ArmA.

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|TG-6th|Ferris Bueller

fuzzhead

slower does not necesarily mean the rounds will last longer. on the contrary, they might actually last shorter cause the battles will be much more decisive. if a team loses all their spawns and is forced to spawn backat mainbase, this means the team that won the firefight will be able to capture flags rapidly and advance on the battlefield.

d1sp0sabl3H3r0

[SARCASM]Yes, because no one else has ever driven a car before, right?[/SARCASM]

I agree with you Ferris on the misuse of the vehicle as a steamroller, but shouldn't that be for the admins to police and not the devs, at least in this case? Perhaps the medic should not be able to auto-heal while he is in position 1 (as driver), since in reality he could not perform his medic duties with his hands at "10 and 2". If you're going to make a restriction on vehicles, that should be the one.

I'm in favor of the time delay while changing seats in the tank - a much needed change that will add to game play by forcing teamwork. How many one-man tank crews do we see in real life?

However, I'm not sold on removing the spawn from the APC and also from the squad leader. I see this change as a serious reduction in the playability of the game and overall enjoyment. I realize it is called Project Reality, but it is still a game, and if the game is made too slow, it will not be enjoyable.

If the intended results of these changes are to force people to keep their heads down and try not to get shot then that is great, but the unfortunate truth is that the game engine just doesn't allow that to work very well. Case in point: Lying in grass provides great cover, unless of course whoever is shooting at you is more than 90 meters away and the engine doesn't render the grass, meaning you're lying prone in the open field with no cover.

There is a point where the balance between realism and playability can and will be lost. I worry that PR is going too far in the direction of ARMA.

I hope that the changes are available in a BETA and that feedback from the community should dictate whether or not the spawn changes are included in the final .7 release. I, for one, would like the opportunity to see it in action for a while and see how it plays out.

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|TG-X|d1sp0sabl3

d1sp0sabl3H3r0

Fuzz - is the intention here to force a team to stage their assault and coordinate all of their assets such as armor and apc in one massive attack?

I don't see what is wrong with having the SL or an APC act as a mobile spawn. The SL must still stay alive and not be bleeding out to act as a spawn. This means that the SL is most likely not directly engaged in the action and is instead hanging back. This does require some tactics and skill on the squad leader's part, and reduces the firepower of his squad by 17% - a nice trade off if you ask me. Perhaps a restriction on this would be that a SL may only act as a spawn point if they have deployed a rally point. This would force more teamwork by reinforcing the importance of staying together, getting and keeping a rally down, and keeping the SL alive.

With the APC, perhaps a restriction should be made on the ability to act as a spawn instead of removing it entirely. What if the APC spawn was restricted to any APC that has both a driver and a gunner only? This would do several things, all of which are good. First, it would keep the apc in it's supporting role. Second, it would force two players to dedicate themselves to acting in support of the ground troops by commiting them to stay in the apc and not just driving it somewhere, hiding it, and getting a kit off the back to attack a point. This would make the APC an extremely valuable asset to the team and the commander and would change the usage of the APC dramatically.

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|TG-X|d1sp0sabl3

fuzzhead

medics driving - medics in a driving or guning position DO NOT heal passengers. its been like this since 0.5

APC/SL removal - yes its a drastic change and obviously will be scrutinized in the public beta. its the one change that i and alot of other veterans are most looking forward to... there has been a prety big debate about it so i wont bring it up here, if you want to start a new thread about it ill reply there, but basically, the act of mobile spawns like SL and APC negate most real life military tactics from having a proper effect, which turns the gameplay into much more arcade action than immersive tactical combat. i know exactly what kind of tactics it takes to stay alive as a SL and continuously have squad members spawn out of your butt, and it is these moments where PR plays more like Quake3 than a tactical shooter. It however has very little if ANYTHING to do with teamwork. In fact I have seen in most circumstances APC/SL spawning actually work against teamwork, it definitely does not 'create' or 'reinforce' it, only makes convience and the action that much faster paced and 'mindless'. i enjoy mindless action sometimes in games, but thats not why i play PR....

the APC idea, while a good one, is not possible (we already tried doing that for 0.5)...

d1sp0sabl3H3r0

I'm sure this has already been debated to death on the Project Reality forums, and I don't want to re-hash it here. I could live with losing the SL spawn, but I still don't like losing the APC spawn. We'll see how it plays out. Regardless, I'm really looking forward to .7!

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|TG-X|d1sp0sabl3

Portable.Cougar

Sounds like your going too far for me.

Seems like people who play correctly are getting punished.

I cant spawn anywhere foward and I've just been HAT sniped, better yet the map is Kashkan and there are no vehicals left casuse people drove them into the open.

I dont play a marathon running sim

Too bad as I doubt Ill see a 0.6 server after 0.7 comes out.

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|TG-X| Portable.Cougar

fuzzhead

well as 0.6 there will be an open beta with 0.7 and feedback will play a big part on how 0.7 is shaped....

it would probably be wise to reserve judgement until you actually play it

xcannon69

This is great news. In addition to slowing down the pace, people will finally get rewarded for actual tactical play instead of mindlessly running and gunning down people on the way to a CP. With the SL spawn removed people will have to change the way they play thus they will have to play much more conservatively. I like the way this mod is going. Looking forward to 0.7 beta... Will suppression fire actually be something worth doing?

hgl_420_division

How is it not worth doing in .6 ?

If I'm getting shot at by a Support gunner or 2-3 rifles I try to keep my head down no? :P

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xcannon69

I still see people popping their head up and firing a few instant headshots then going prone in seconds.

Bernout

This is a perfect example of the two different camps that the devs will be trying to please. I have the exact opposite viewpoint. I already avoid all the big (mainly desert) maps and if the game play gets slowed down too much my time with PR will unfortunately be coming to an end. I simply don't want to be playing a map for hours with most of that time spent just maneuvering around and not actually fighting.

Bernout

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|TG-MD6| TG Primer

Rafterman1987

Every time I get the saw out I get killed by the people I'm ripping on. Maybe I'm doing something wrong but the support class just seems to get the short end of the stick for whatever reason...

TheSkudDestroyer

Both APC and SL spawn are leaving? One or the other man, remember it's just a game.

I don't mind if SL went away, but APC? Seriously, this makes headshots day ruining experiences.

How will 2 man sniper teams ever recover from this? Yep, hump it out the first time...But say I get TK'd. Wow, that's gonna be freakin sweet.

No, I don't know how it will play out, but if it really is how my example is, I'll be short 1 of my favorite games on my computer...

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|TG-6th|Skud, NA Deputy Lead Tester