Use of armor

xcannon69 · 10-26-2007, 10:22 AM

I still don't get it. I still see people taking armor assets for themselves not attempting to formulate a proper two man crew. They are effectively screwing over their team. I can understand soloing on a regular night but I have been seeing this on TG password nights. It worries me that some people in this community prefer to solo these "team" armor assets on a password night when they could benefit the team much more if they had a 2nd crewmember. Whenever I want to hop into an apc, I try to create a squad with the appropriate name and hopefully I will end up getting a 2nd crewman to take over gunning/driving.

Some people may argue that having an extra crewman takes away infantry from the battlefield. I believe they are looking at this problem the wrong way. For example, a properly equipped apc crew of two people has the effective firepower of an entire 6 man squad not to mention creating a mobile spawn, and resupply point for the rest of the team. Not to mention, an experienced two man crew will last on the battlefield much longer than a one man apc.

Your thoughts?

**thegreatnardini** · 10-26-2007, 11:15 AM

I agree completely, and when I ever drive in a tank I usually make a "1 tank" squad, with myself as a driver, a gunner and an engineer. I'll drive so I can spot for the gunner with waypoints, and the engineer will either sit in the .50, walk around outside the tank or bring the support humvee up. I prefer to never leave base in a tank without an engineer, and forget about 1 person tanks.

If I have 4 guys in my tank squad and one guy dies I'de rather have him spawn on me and have 2 engies then to bring up a tank by himself.

The Senator · 10-26-2007, 01:55 PM

I completely agree. If people in my squad are in a tank by themselves I usually yell at them until they get at least a gunner. A gunner, A driver and some engies are quite the match up. The only person in a one man tank I wouldn't yell at is patterson, cuz if he had a 2 man tank they would win kashan in 5 minutes. either way no matte what we do theres always gonna be noobs. Its like talking chinese to a french man, noobs just don't understand all they want is points but they don't understand that drivers get more points with a gunner

**Sabre_Tooth_Tigger** · 10-26-2007, 03:52 PM

I prefer 1 man crews but I dont often use armour except when its going spare.

In the apc the driver has no zoom and this disparity with the gunner only adds to the struggle the crew will have to work together instead of against each other which can and does happen especially in unfamiliar squads

Teamplay isnt a magical factor that always works benefically, obviously it can be a plus but I believe you can quite easily have a too many cooks situation also.

A one man crew should use cover at all times as well as working with the rest of the team where ever possible. Two men crews need to use cover too but often dont, its frustrating to watch such an obvious mistake.

Heres me using a 1 man crew on the apc on EJOD, west city. Only the top of the turret is visible over the fence and it has a fairly good line of sight on the USA approaching from the ruins, gas, etc

Its not perfect obviously, the back doors as a weakest spot should facing into the cover for example but its a good tactic and just as valid as the idea of two men crews which is harder to actually implement positively imo.

Later on I used a tank and just flanked excessively and just by doing I was able to attack two tanks and an APC. I was no where near the rest of the team and was using maximum zoom and avoiding any lock until I could hit.

Lucky or whatever, I just wanted to say 1 man crew is not always automatically a waste. Cover, work around/with the team position, be aware of your radar signature and work to eight tenths

Ideally a two man crew would do all that as well as or better then one would, but I'd still be inclined to want the second man as an engineer & scout.

xcannon69 · 10-26-2007, 04:41 PM

Sabre
What you have done above is using the apc in a way that it wasn't ment to be used. But I will agree that you have taken necessary precautions and you are helping your team out by creating a spawn deep within the battlefield.

The role of the APC is to provide supporting firepower for ground troops and provide transport to 6-man squads on the battlefield, hence the name Armored Personnel Carrier. As a bonus it holds ammo, and creates a form of mobile cover for advancing troops. Its not designed to take part in direct-fire battles. From my experience APCs are better at attacking positions rather than defending. Key word here is SUPPORT.

I believe that the developers of this mod also intend upon having the role that I mentioned above for APCs. Which leads me to something that I had read earlier....

Not sure if this is true but I read that APCs will lose their mobile spawn point in 0.7. I think this move is great because now the APC will have to be used as a supporting vehicle, since the spawn point is going to be removed, rather than a 1-man spawn point.

A great example to follow would be to have a 2 man APC crew attached to a 6 man squad. By using TS to coordinate an assault, this "mobile fighting element" complement each other. The infantry squad can deal with battlefield threats like the Heavy AT while the APC can hang back and deliver firepower to known enemy positions.

References
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_personnel_carrier
http://www.realitymod.com/forum/quic...de-t27699.html

**Nero** · 10-26-2007, 04:45 PM

I agree that TANKS should have 2+ crew and are far more effective when crewed correctly.

However, I think that for APC's it depends on the map and the intention for using the apc. To me the most important aspect of an apc is it's function as a mobile spawn, hence it should generally evade contact with enemy. Move to a safe location and stay still while troops pour out. There is a real art to getting an apc in a safe location and keeping it safe. Often if there is an apc driver, the driver will get bored and move around too much.

In al basrah I like to get an apc into vehicle checkpoint and place it on one of the vehicle platforms inside to defend. One night I sat in the apc gunner without moving the apc for about 30mins... a driver would have gone crazy with boredom. However, on this same map, if I were to use the apc to chase weapons cache's a 2-man crew would be critical. Hence, I think if depends on intended use of the apc whether it should have 1 or 2 crew.

In Kashan, a 2-man crew is useful to get an apc from the main to the safety of one of the bunkers, but once in the bunker where the apc acts primarily as a mobile spawn a driver is redundant. The argument is that squads should be forming there own rally points and the commander building bunkers/firebases, but this doesn't happen well on Kashan unless the team is really organised. So an apc acting as a mobile spawn is the next best thing.

In other maps, like sunset city, jabal, ejod desert I think it is important to have 2 crew as the apc needs to move around frequently.

EDIT: The mobile spawn aspect is such a powerful apc function, I don't think it is really feasible to use the 'realism' argument to make people not use it. If the developer's take out that function that's fine (would probably encourage more rally point formation and squad-work), but the way the apc works at the moment I stand by my above comments - simply because the enemy will be spawning off their apc's!

**Sabre_Tooth_Tigger** · 10-27-2007, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xcannon69

I read that APCs will lose their mobile spawn point in 0.7. I think this move is great because now the APC will have to be used as a supporting vehicle, since the spawn point is going to be removed, rather than a 1-man spawn point.

Yep Ive read something along those lines, should be good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by =MAD=

Often if there is an apc driver, the driver will get bored and move around too much.

That applies to all parts of the game. No one wants to sit still even when thats what would win you the game.
An apc at nvcp on basra is probably a good example of what I think they are best suited too, their too weak & valuable to assault the front line directly.

**O=T-M-A-N=O** · 10-27-2007, 07:29 AM

I don't think using the APC as a mobile rally point is a good idea. I wish that wasn't a functionality of the game. I don't think it is realistic.

I am also sick of people getting all the vehicle assets like they used to in regular BF2 - a mad rush at the start of a game to grab everything and roll away leaving half the team walking. Most vehicles are left with 1 person in them when that happens. PR is supposed to be realistic, not a video game... It would be nice if at least on password nights that players tried to team up on tanks and APCs to make better use of them for the team.

westyfield · 10-27-2007, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xcannon69

A great example to follow would be to have a 2 man APC crew attached to a 6 man squad. By using TS to coordinate an assault, this "mobile fighting element" complement each other. The infantry squad can deal with battlefield threats like the Heavy AT while the APC can hang back and deliver firepower to known enemy positions.

I remember me and Topcat did that on Kashan once, with me as gunner, Topcat as driver and Jevski leading an infantry squad of mostly (if not all) non TGers. It was more a transport role than support, but it did work quite well. It would generally be; Transport units to target area, APC pulls back and provides covering/supression fire, but is ready to move up for extract quickly. I don't understand why EA made it so that a full squad cannot all fit into a Jeep in VBF2, but am glad that PR changed that.

**Bernout** · 10-27-2007, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O=T-M-A-N=O

I don't think using the APC as a mobile rally point is a good idea. I wish that wasn't a functionality of the game. I don't think it is realistic.

As I think Fuzz has stated before, the PR devs strive for that balance between realism and game play. It's not always a drive to make things as realistic as possible because for a lot of people you start to affect game play and that can reduce how much fun people are having.

From a game play perspective, I'm not sure removing APCs as a mobile spawn point is such a good idea. What that is going to do is put people into a situation more often where they need to spawn at a rear base and that slows everything down. Sure...losing a spawn point isn't a big deal with a good squad who maintains its RP properly. But on a public server, even the TG one, good squad play is hit and miss. Not to mention the fact you can't depend on the APC being properly used to start with (as per the current discussion).

Maybe they'll make RPs harder to destroy to compensate?

Bernout

**Steiner** · 10-27-2007, 02:26 PM

I totally agree with what the first poster says. One man crewed tanks are very ineffective compared to a crew of two people. And what also drives me nuts is to see armour used a l o n e. Use armour properly:
- In close cooperation with infantry.
- In cooperation with an other tank or APC.

Do not venture out in a lone tank [unless for a purely defensive purpose], always have a partner of sort.

westyfield · 10-27-2007, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernout

Maybe they'll make RPs harder to destroy to compensate?

Well, they could remove or somehow change the fact that it only takes 2 knives to kill. But it is always fun to spawn and find yourself standing 5 metres away from a whole squad with their knives out...

**Sabre_Tooth_Tigger** · 10-27-2007, 05:00 PM

The knife thing is fine by me, if anyone gets within arms reach then you have totally failed to protect the asset and deserve to lose it.

Its tough enough to withstand reasonable amounts of weapons fire at any distance I reckon.

I think the apc spawn point being lost is just to balance things out now we have firebases, co truck, bunkers and so on.
They probably dont want people popping up all over the place like happens in vanilla, a bit of map progression is good.

The co truck is much weaker, slower, unarmoured, higher profile, non-submersible, open cab, unarmed and drives like a blamange so is a bit more balanced in that way. Also it costs 5 tickets for each one, open mobile spawning will be restricted heavily with any luck

**Rafterman1987** · 10-30-2007, 11:34 PM

While I know I'm pretty guilty of one manning on regular nights, I just find on regular nights people aren't as willing to tank with others... I don't know why but when I offer to drive/gun everyone's silent yet I know they'd run for the tank if they had been the one to spawn into base O_o I noticed that some players are a bit uneasy about disapointing their driver/gunner so that might be a part of it (on that note... to my past and future gunners: forgive me if I get a bit short with ya if you've just missed the enemy tank 5 times in a row, I don't really mean to sound like im scolding you )

But, I do agree it's 100% more effective to have a 3 man tank crew. Ive gone maps without dieing with a good 3 man armor squad. Someone mentioned that in the APC the lack of zoom causes the driver and gunner to work against eachother, but tank/apc drivers are essentially driving by ear in reality anyways when the cap is down, the commander basically is the brains and eyes in the tank. The way armor operates in PR is kindof odd with this in mind, the roles are very obscured. The gunner commands the driver essentially while the driver also helps spot targets which at times decreases the amount of attention being given to actual driving. I personally wouldn't mind having a driver view similar to the APCs and have my engineer ride in the commander spot (inside the tank) to help spot targets instead of sitting on the .50 ducking for dear life. This would put a little more emphasis on the driver-gunner communication, keep your engineer much safer, and let your driver focus on his job: driving.

As for APCs as mobile spawns... You can't tell me you won't miss the APC hunts! It's like an easter egg hunt with explosives!

kittykatnub · 10-31-2007, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O=T-M-A-N=O

I don't think using the APC as a mobile rally point is a good idea. I wish that wasn't a functionality of the game. I don't think it is realistic.

I am also sick of people getting all the vehicle assets like they used to in regular BF2 - a mad rush at the start of a game to grab everything and roll away leaving half the team walking. Most vehicles are left with 1 person in them when that happens. PR is supposed to be realistic, not a video game... It would be nice if at least on password nights that players tried to team up on tanks and APCs to make better use of them for the team.

PR Is a video game. It's impossible to avoid that fact. It IS suppose to be a video game also. If it wasn't they why the hell did they make it? Of course it's suppose to be realisticbut there are certain extents to which it can be. As for the APC spawning I think it should only work for the first whatever minutes as it spawns and that time is when it's used for getting to the first or maybe second flag because that way it's a rally but only until the battle becomes hectic. But if thats not possible I'm happy with it not having spawns on it. The fact of lack of cooperation is also unavoidable. Even if the server is only for SMs it would still have noobs in it that act like idiots. Everything isn't perfect, people have to learn to accept that sadly...

10-26-2007, 10:22 AM	#1 (permalink)
xcannon69 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: University of Texas at Austin Age: 23 Posts: 165	Use of armor I still don't get it. I still see people taking armor assets for themselves not attempting to formulate a proper two man crew. They are effectively screwing over their team. I can understand soloing on a regular night but I have been seeing this on TG password nights. It worries me that some people in this community prefer to solo these "team" armor assets on a password night when they could benefit the team much more if they had a 2nd crewmember. Whenever I want to hop into an apc, I try to create a squad with the appropriate name and hopefully I will end up getting a 2nd crewman to take over gunning/driving. Some people may argue that having an extra crewman takes away infantry from the battlefield. I believe they are looking at this problem the wrong way. For example, a properly equipped apc crew of two people has the effective firepower of an entire 6 man squad not to mention creating a mobile spawn, and resupply point for the rest of the team. Not to mention, an experienced two man crew will last on the battlefield much longer than a one man apc. Your thoughts?

10-26-2007, 11:15 AM	#2 (permalink)
thegreatnardini Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philleh Posts: 1,621	Re: Use of armor I agree completely, and when I ever drive in a tank I usually make a "1 tank" squad, with myself as a driver, a gunner and an engineer. I'll drive so I can spot for the gunner with waypoints, and the engineer will either sit in the .50, walk around outside the tank or bring the support humvee up. I prefer to never leave base in a tank without an engineer, and forget about 1 person tanks. If I have 4 guys in my tank squad and one guy dies I'de rather have him spawn on me and have 2 engies then to bring up a tank by himself. __________________ lTG-6thl TheGreatNardini Happy Easter \| Battlefield 2 SOP's \| Kicked? Banned? Click here!!! \| Need an admin? PM me \| XFire "Dave: I'll have plenty of time to play next month after my foot surgery. Wickens: They removing it from your mouth?"

10-26-2007, 01:55 PM	#3 (permalink)
The Senator Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 27	Re: Use of armor I completely agree. If people in my squad are in a tank by themselves I usually yell at them until they get at least a gunner. A gunner, A driver and some engies are quite the match up. The only person in a one man tank I wouldn't yell at is patterson, cuz if he had a 2 man tank they would win kashan in 5 minutes. either way no matte what we do theres always gonna be noobs. Its like talking chinese to a french man, noobs just don't understand all they want is points but they don't understand that drivers get more points with a gunner

10-26-2007, 03:52 PM	#4 (permalink)
Sabre_Tooth_Tigger Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: افغانستان Posts: 2,441	Re: Use of armor I prefer 1 man crews but I dont often use armour except when its going spare. In the apc the driver has no zoom and this disparity with the gunner only adds to the struggle the crew will have to work together instead of against each other which can and does happen especially in unfamiliar squads Teamplay isnt a magical factor that always works benefically, obviously it can be a plus but I believe you can quite easily have a too many cooks situation also. A one man crew should use cover at all times as well as working with the rest of the team where ever possible. Two men crews need to use cover too but often dont, its frustrating to watch such an obvious mistake. Heres me using a 1 man crew on the apc on EJOD, west city. Only the top of the turret is visible over the fence and it has a fairly good line of sight on the USA approaching from the ruins, gas, etc Its not perfect obviously, the back doors as a weakest spot should facing into the cover for example but its a good tactic and just as valid as the idea of two men crews which is harder to actually implement positively imo. Later on I used a tank and just flanked excessively and just by doing I was able to attack two tanks and an APC. I was no where near the rest of the team and was using maximum zoom and avoiding any lock until I could hit. Lucky or whatever, I just wanted to say 1 man crew is not always automatically a waste. Cover, work around/with the team position, be aware of your radar signature and work to eight tenths Ideally a two man crew would do all that as well as or better then one would, but I'd still be inclined to want the second man as an engineer & scout. __________________ *WWII German infantry weapons in detail*

10-26-2007, 04:41 PM	#5 (permalink)
xcannon69 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: University of Texas at Austin Age: 23 Posts: 165	Re: Use of armor Sabre What you have done above is using the apc in a way that it wasn't ment to be used. But I will agree that you have taken necessary precautions and you are helping your team out by creating a spawn deep within the battlefield. The role of the APC is to provide supporting firepower for ground troops and provide transport to 6-man squads on the battlefield, hence the name Armored Personnel Carrier. As a bonus it holds ammo, and creates a form of mobile cover for advancing troops. Its not designed to take part in direct-fire battles. From my experience APCs are better at attacking positions rather than defending. Key word here is SUPPORT. I believe that the developers of this mod also intend upon having the role that I mentioned above for APCs. Which leads me to something that I had read earlier.... Not sure if this is true but I read that APCs will lose their mobile spawn point in 0.7. I think this move is great because now the APC will have to be used as a supporting vehicle, since the spawn point is going to be removed, rather than a 1-man spawn point. A great example to follow would be to have a 2 man APC crew attached to a 6 man squad. By using TS to coordinate an assault, this "mobile fighting element" complement each other. The infantry squad can deal with battlefield threats like the Heavy AT while the APC can hang back and deliver firepower to known enemy positions. References http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_personnel_carrier http://www.realitymod.com/forum/quic...de-t27699.html

10-26-2007, 04:45 PM	#6 (permalink)
Nero Join Date: Oct 2007 Age: 37 Posts: 547	Re: Use of armor I agree that TANKS should have 2+ crew and are far more effective when crewed correctly. However, I think that for APC's it depends on the map and the intention for using the apc. To me the most important aspect of an apc is it's function as a mobile spawn, hence it should generally evade contact with enemy. Move to a safe location and stay still while troops pour out. There is a real art to getting an apc in a safe location and keeping it safe. Often if there is an apc driver, the driver will get bored and move around too much. In al basrah I like to get an apc into vehicle checkpoint and place it on one of the vehicle platforms inside to defend. One night I sat in the apc gunner without moving the apc for about 30mins... a driver would have gone crazy with boredom. However, on this same map, if I were to use the apc to chase weapons cache's a 2-man crew would be critical. Hence, I think if depends on intended use of the apc whether it should have 1 or 2 crew. In Kashan, a 2-man crew is useful to get an apc from the main to the safety of one of the bunkers, but once in the bunker where the apc acts primarily as a mobile spawn a driver is redundant. The argument is that squads should be forming there own rally points and the commander building bunkers/firebases, but this doesn't happen well on Kashan unless the team is really organised. So an apc acting as a mobile spawn is the next best thing. In other maps, like sunset city, jabal, ejod desert I think it is important to have 2 crew as the apc needs to move around frequently. EDIT: The mobile spawn aspect is such a powerful apc function, I don't think it is really feasible to use the 'realism' argument to make people not use it. If the developer's take out that function that's fine (would probably encourage more rally point formation and squad-work), but the way the apc works at the moment I stand by my above comments - simply because the enemy will be spawning off their apc's!

10-27-2007, 07:29 AM	#8 (permalink)
O=T-M-A-N=O Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Germany Age: 43 Posts: 364	Re: Use of armor I don't think using the APC as a mobile rally point is a good idea. I wish that wasn't a functionality of the game. I don't think it is realistic. I am also sick of people getting all the vehicle assets like they used to in regular BF2 - a mad rush at the start of a game to grab everything and roll away leaving half the team walking. Most vehicles are left with 1 person in them when that happens. PR is supposed to be realistic, not a video game... It would be nice if at least on password nights that players tried to team up on tanks and APCs to make better use of them for the team. __________________ \|TG-E1st\|_TMAN Project Reality Planning world domination the E1st way Help keep TG realistic - read and follow the rules Server Rules and SOP / Ribbon Nominations

10-27-2007, 02:26 PM	#11 (permalink)
Steiner Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Age: 29 Posts: 678	Re: Use of armor I totally agree with what the first poster says. One man crewed tanks are very ineffective compared to a crew of two people. And what also drives me nuts is to see armour used a l o n e. Use armour properly: - In close cooperation with infantry. - In cooperation with an other tank or APC. Do not venture out in a lone tank [unless for a purely defensive purpose], always have a partner of sort. __________________ \|TG-6th\|Steiner Can't work out how to have several different images [such as banners and ribbons] in the signature, so I will drop that project for now... Caesar counted on his veteran Gaul legions. Napoleon had his Old Guard. Queen Victoria was well served by the Cold Stream Guards. Tactical Gamer can always rely on the 6th Devil's Brigade. "-He has a wife, you know. Do you know what she's called? 'Incontinentia'... Incontinentia Buttocks."

10-27-2007, 05:00 PM	#13 (permalink)
Sabre_Tooth_Tigger Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: افغانستان Posts: 2,441	Re: Use of armor The knife thing is fine by me, if anyone gets within arms reach then you have totally failed to protect the asset and deserve to lose it. Its tough enough to withstand reasonable amounts of weapons fire at any distance I reckon. I think the apc spawn point being lost is just to balance things out now we have firebases, co truck, bunkers and so on. They probably dont want people popping up all over the place like happens in vanilla, a bit of map progression is good. The co truck is much weaker, slower, unarmoured, higher profile, non-submersible, open cab, unarmed and drives like a blamange so is a bit more balanced in that way. Also it costs 5 tickets for each one, open mobile spawning will be restricted heavily with any luck __________________ *WWII German infantry weapons in detail*

10-30-2007, 11:34 PM	#14 (permalink)
Rafterman1987 Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Ottawa, Canada Age: 21 Posts: 169	Re: Use of armor While I know I'm pretty guilty of one manning on regular nights, I just find on regular nights people aren't as willing to tank with others... I don't know why but when I offer to drive/gun everyone's silent yet I know they'd run for the tank if they had been the one to spawn into base O_o I noticed that some players are a bit uneasy about disapointing their driver/gunner so that might be a part of it (on that note... to my past and future gunners: forgive me if I get a bit short with ya if you've just missed the enemy tank 5 times in a row, I don't really mean to sound like im scolding you ) But, I do agree it's 100% more effective to have a 3 man tank crew. Ive gone maps without dieing with a good 3 man armor squad. Someone mentioned that in the APC the lack of zoom causes the driver and gunner to work against eachother, but tank/apc drivers are essentially driving by ear in reality anyways when the cap is down, the commander basically is the brains and eyes in the tank. The way armor operates in PR is kindof odd with this in mind, the roles are very obscured. The gunner commands the driver essentially while the driver also helps spot targets which at times decreases the amount of attention being given to actual driving. I personally wouldn't mind having a driver view similar to the APCs and have my engineer ride in the commander spot (inside the tank) to help spot targets instead of sitting on the .50 ducking for dear life. This would put a little more emphasis on the driver-gunner communication, keep your engineer much safer, and let your driver focus on his job: driving. As for APCs as mobile spawns... You can't tell me you won't miss the APC hunts! It's like an easter egg hunt with explosives!

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