Tempus

Please, please, PLEASE report to the admins the SLs who are not following CO orders. We don't need them on the server, and the admins will be happy to remove them for you.

__________________
Battlefield 2/2142 Game Officer
Contact me with server/player/admin issues.




-- Suits are what you wear when doing things you shouldn’t want to do anyway.

FROM THE TACTICAL GAMER PRIMER.
3) Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine.

squadexodus

Dude, i played with you. you weren't that bad. In fact better than half, maybe more commanders.

__________________

I am the leader Of the Zombie Defense Militia. We hold think tanks on how to live in a zombie apocalypse.
Baseless self confidence kills more people each year than bathtubs.

fuzzhead

The single best rule on TG server - if your the CO and someone is directly disobeying or ignoring your orders - they get kicked. its that simple....

dont let these asshats ruin everyone elses fun.... get them kicked and that will show them they cant get away with it on this server..

__________________

kilroy0097

Here is a good question especially for veteran experienced squad leaders.

What do you do if your commander orders you to do something that you know with most certainty is the absolute wrong course of action.

1. Do you explain the situation to the Commander and tell them exactly why it's a bad idea?
2. Do you accept his order to appease them and then do something else?
3. Do you ignore the commander and simply not speak with them?
4. Do you follow the order regardless of bad judgment and hope for a miracle?

And what if the commander is determined in their bad decision even if you speak with them and attempt to explain that running across 100m of open ground at armor without a Heavy AT kit with a full squad is suicide? (Fictional silly example to make the point.)

As you can see not every commander knows what the hell they are doing. Hence we have the issue of the rule, "Follow Commander and SL orders." which is clearly displayed on the TG PR server during map load.

Discuss.

__________________

Ferris Bueller

I always try and explain the error of their ways first. If that doesnt work and he insists, I tell him that I'm refusing the order because it's a very bad idea, and if he'd like to report it, hes more than welcome to. The rule about following orders isnt an absolute. If the CO or SL tells you to do something suicidal and you dont want to, then dont. You may get a kick or even a temp ban for it, but if you talk to the admins and tell them the situation, you'll be back without any problem.

__________________
|TG-6th|Ferris Bueller

Steiner

If the order, in my honest opinion, is really bad will I initially turn it down in order to have the CO think about it for a few more seconds, while at the same time providing the CO with a very short explanation of why perhaps a different approach should be taken.

If I recieve the same order again, I will carry it out to the letter regardless of what might happen. The CO always have a birds-eye of what is going on, while the SL knows what is going on in the area he's in [hopefully]. How an CO interpret a situation and differ quite much from how the SL "on the ground" experience it

__________________
|TG-6th|Steiner

Can't work out how to have several different images [such as banners and ribbons] in the signature, so I will drop that project for now...




"-He has a wife, you know. Do you know what she's called? 'Incontinentia'... Incontinentia Buttocks."

xcannon69

Sometimes an experienced CO steps into the commander's seat with the ability to view the battlefield at all levels at hierarchies. I have gotten into conflicts with various SLs that didn't agree with orders I gave out despite that fact I knew the implications behind the orders. Not trying to be hostile but sometimes It just better to follow the commander's orders and carry them out despite how much on ground-experience you have as a squad leader. Many times that very same CO knows how things turn out.

The single most annoying thing I hear is "oh commander my 1337 squad can cap that cp in less than a minute". A minute goes by only to lose a back flag that was undefended...

Steiner

I agree completely with that. My point was, however, that if an order appears to make no sence [perhaps it doesnt], then ask the CO for confirmation on that order. Only takes a few seconds for the CO to evaluate/revaluate the situation with a sort of input from a SL.

__________________
|TG-6th|Steiner

Can't work out how to have several different images [such as banners and ribbons] in the signature, so I will drop that project for now...




"-He has a wife, you know. Do you know what she's called? 'Incontinentia'... Incontinentia Buttocks."

d1sp0sabl3H3r0

Always always always #1. I find that if I receive an order that doesn't make sense, talking to the commander and giving him real-time intel about what is happening with regard to where I am usually takes care of the order and it is almost always changed. COs can't see and know everything happening, so it is critical that their SL provide them with intel so they can make better decisions.

__________________
|TG-X|d1sp0sabl3

Sabre_Tooth_Tigger

Tell them why its a bad idea but follow the command unless it breaks the rules.

Or you can resign and just join a random squad if its just a waste of time.

__________________

Ferris Bueller

The problem is that frequently COs who join up mid-game have the same sense that you talked about, having a birdseye view of the battlefield and whatnot. Problem is that the CO cant see enemy assets any better than someone across the map can. Lets take a common map like kashan, for example.

Scenario:
I'm squad leading and holding a solid defense at north bunker along with one other squad. We're being pounded from south bunker by an APC, AAV and a static AA gun from the bunker the enemy has set up there. Troops are streaming in on us constantly. A new CO pops in and tells me that my squad needs to go attack south bunker, leaving only one squad on defense because he thinks thats more than enough. He has no knowledge of whats going on down where I am because he cant see it.

So I quickly pull up the map and analyze. We're already taking a beating, but holding our ground and keeping the flag. Closest armor support is 4 grids away on the other side of the mountains, making it at least a 4 minute delay before I have fire support. Our attack plane is down, but our fighter is up. The enemy has a heavily entrenched defense at south bunker with armored support and a bunker.

So what are my options:
1. Accept the order and push my squad into a losing battle that will not only ensure a good number of tickets lost in an impossible effort to take the flag, but also that our threadbare defense at north bunker will be halved, probably costing us the flag.
2. Decline the order and stay on defense until support is available to eliminate the armored threat and possibly the bunker, not to mention covering our approach.

In a situation like that, any responsible SL is going to explain the situation to the CO and choose option 2. Any CO who thinks he knows better is just plain stupid. CO's may have battlefield awareness of where their own troops are, but they dont have any idea where the enemy is. The key to being a good CO when you step in mid-game is to ask all of your squads for sitreps and then go from there. Intel before you order, or you're just rolling dice.

Also, no matter how much experience you have as CO or SL, nobody is capable of knowing how anything is going to turn out simply because you never have any clue who you're facing. I wont mention names, but I've played games where one squad held a defense against 3+ squads and armor support. I've also played games where one squad routed multiple enmy squads and secured an objective. Unless you know exactly who you're going up against and what they can do, you'll never have a clue as to what the outcome will be. No CO or SL can claim any different, and issuing orders based on an impossible knowledge of the outcome is ridiculous. We might as well be calling Miss Cleo and asking for a tarot reading.

__________________
|TG-6th|Ferris Bueller

xcannon69

Very true I agree with what Ferris stated in his post. I too would have followed option two. And I would have informed the commander of my situation by giving a SITREP to explain my reasoning.

If the commander is has an overall sense of whats going on [has been in the commander chair for the round, and has a bit of command experience] would know that issuing an order to attack south bunker would prove to be a mistake.
Ferris what your describing is a situation in which the commander doesn't understand whats happening at the ground level at north bunker. This happens a lot when an inexperienced commander takes the chair and starts issuing orders without understanding the consequences behind those orders. Even if a commander that joins mid-round, and has a fairly good idea of whats going on [maybe not a perfect good idea of whats going on since he just joined but a general sense]. They only have a bird eye perspective of the commander screen. A commander is limited by his "ground experience as SL in previous games" [ this plays a hugggge role whenever I issue out an order], the data on commander screen, and communications from SLs and team chat.

My statements were stated to support the OP argument that people should be following the commander's orders but many times people don't follow orders because:

• 1. Lack of faith in the commander
  2. Inexperience

Theres a real shortage of good commanders out there. Its very evident on a non-tg password night.
OFF TOPIC: I think TGU should write a commander's manual or host a class on commander basics and tactics. I can help out with that since I've been playing PR since .3 and have played the commander role many times.

BigGaayAl

I'd liek to take the opportunity to remind everyone here to be pro-active in communicating with the CO.

Most of the times I have been co, even though the SL's may be great, I have to drag information out of them. Sometimes I need to waterboard them for it!

The CO in PR is basically blind. He cannot even zoom in his map as much as you. Most decisions in PR should therefore flow from the squadleaders, with the commanders only forcing things when he identifies immediate problems.

We all forget to give sitreps, especially when we are winning or losing badly. Often the commander will make decisions purely on his map or the input of one squad. That hardly puts anyone in a position to debate his competence rather then their own.

__________________
Support your right to arm bears. ~Cleveland Amory

I am a kind of paranoiac in reverse. I suspect people of plotting to make me happy. ~J.D. Salinger

kilroy0097

You know it really doesn't make sense why the CO can't zoom their map in that 3rd step as you can in normal map mode. You'd think a "commander" would have better maps of areas than the people in the field since "theoretically" they have access to more detailed maps at command. If anyone should have that 3rd map zoom it's the commander.

__________________

Sabre_Tooth_Tigger

Yea that was bugging me the other day but its removed because it was giving a live uav feed in earlier versions, I think thats the reason its disabled now

__________________