AA Guns ruining the game. - Page 4

**Ferris Bueller** · 03-03-2008, 03:17 PM

Nope. Much easier way. Simply destroy all the AA implacements at back firebases/bunkers and you can deploy ALL of them at one firebase/bunker. So take fools road for example, you get one per firebase, one firebase per two flags. Say the militia has the brits down to their UCB, which means the militia has 6 flags, meaning 3 firebases + a freebie bunker. Thats 4 AA guns. If all of those assets are deployed around the map, but none have AA implacements, one could theoretically set up 4 AA guns at village and just destroy anything that moved in the british UCB.

**Sabre_Tooth_Tigger** · 03-03-2008, 03:25 PM

I think they changed the rules for firebase & bunkers. You can always set 2 firebases and then 1 bunker at each flag you own (2 max)

Right at the start of the game you can set 2 firebases right away for example

I didnt know about the AA though. Doesnt seem quite right because those AA guns would need alot of ammo and just 1 bunker (at that point on the map) doesnt represent that amount of resources imo, ie. supplylines

vulcan is 6000 rpm, so thats upto 24,000 bullets every minute. Thats a ton of lead

Delta*RandyShugart* · 03-03-2008, 07:48 PM

I think until they release a stinger missile version of the AA gun, thats when you will see it being used less and less against infantry.....the aa gun can help though its almost as if its your own personal heavy machine gun to quell infantry.......though i can see how it can sometimes be used too much.

austrooper · 03-03-2008, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elwenil

AA guns are usually .50 cal or 12mm which are generally considered to be overkill on human targets and I think they are against the Geneva Convention guidelines

This may be a bit off topic but how can AA emplacement be against Geneva Convention guidelines and not a JDAM request placed by troopers??? have you seen some of the real footage on youtube??? its crazy stuff.

kittykatnub · 03-03-2008, 08:26 PM

I think it's only considered overkill if you repeatedly shoot at the dead body knowingly. If you don't then it's fine. Also, if AA can't be used against inf (Geneva) then why aren't tanks, aircraft, helicopters, explosives, etc...

Elwenil · 03-03-2008, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by austrooper

This may be a bit off topic but how can AA emplacement be against Geneva Convention guidelines and not a JDAM request placed by troopers??? have you seen some of the real footage on youtube??? its crazy stuff.

A JDAM is intended to be used against a specific hard target. That is the whole reason of all the targeting systems and "smart bombs". You have to be able to target a specific building, group of tanks, gun emplacement, etc. We can't carpet bomb anymore (also due to the Geneva Convention) so we have to put the bombs on target. A group of infantry in a field would not be considered a valid target for a JDAM but a group of infantry dug in inside a building, bunker or complex would be.

**MarineSeaknight** · 03-03-2008, 09:03 PM

With all this Geneva Convention aside,

I am with Elwenil on this point. An AA gun, as devasting to infantry and light vehicles as it is, IS NOT a SUPERGUN. I'll use a comparison to show how silly it is to complain about AA guns being overpowered.

A main battle tank, cannon, coaxial MG, and a .50cal MG. Can tear infantry to shreds, even infantry hiding behind most cover (HEAT rounds). Can withstand tank rounds, AT rounds, and the crewmen are not exposed. Can, theoretically, be placed almost anywhere.

The AA Gun, 20mm rounds (Vulcan cannon I believe), can also tear infantry to shreds. CANNOT withoutstand tank rounds, AT rounds, and crewman IS exposed, adding to the list, all other types of fire. Can only be placed around bunkers and firebases (you find the AA gun that killed you, you find the spawnpoint).

Main Battle Tanks are almost never complained about, because they are generally accepted to be powerful killing machines. It just has to be accepted that AA guns are ALSO killing machines, and should not be taken lightly. It's just AA guns are a HELLA LOT easier to kill than tanks. I wouldn't once run out of cover and not be surprised at a tank looking my way, and the same would go for an AA gun.

Now I'll take note, that on maps such as Assault on Mestia, there isn't always armored vehicle support, but that doesn't mean you can't sneak up to the gun and shove a L-AT up his. Not... superguns.

Delta*RandyShugart* · 03-03-2008, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kittykatnub

I think it's only considered overkill if you repeatedly shoot at the dead body knowingly. If you don't then it's fine. Also, if AA can't be used against inf (Geneva) then why aren't tanks, aircraft, helicopters, explosives, etc...

The last time this could have been put into effect was either WW2, or when the british were fighting against argentina in the battle of the falklands, last time i checked the Taliban didn't have an airforce....and they use RPGs as AA and shoot at infantry, but i don't think the Geneva accords hold any water as per TG PR server rules.........

As a last ditch resort....AA is useful against infantry, if it wasn't then why do you have the option of building it on non aircraft maps.......now one could put a rule that outlaws AA but it would waste precious admin time to scour each round to see who placed an AA gun and who used it etc.......its a valid point wickens i can see where it can be used too much, but sometimes, you gotta work those arms and get in the mec aa gun and the US AA gun and plow some troops with bullets as they rush towards your bunker/flag.......

**Donrhos** · 03-04-2008, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabre_Tooth_Tigger

vulcan is 6000 rpm, so thats upto 24,000 bullets every minute. Thats a ton of lead

rpm= rounds per minute? am i wrong?
so that makes it 6000 rounds per minute?
not 24000.

Elwenil · 03-04-2008, 01:15 AM

He was probably thinking that RPM meant Revolutions Per Minute, which is common in machinery and engines. However, when speaking of firearms, RPM generally does mean Rounds Per Minute.

fuzzhead · 03-04-2008, 02:17 AM

yeap AA guns getting swapped to AA missles.... main reason, well, theres a few:

- when 2 teams building firebases/bunkers in close area, it turns into a RTS style game of 'build the magical turrets' syndrome, and there are some ways to exploit the AA guns (if it gets destroyed, can be rebuilt right away etc)

- firebases/bunkers being deployed specifically just to have the AA support, not really a good thing

- main thing (for me) is that the AA gun is a more effective tool at suppressive fire than 5 50cals or 5 saws combined (i know because ive spent at least 40 hours in them on jabal, with full support squads with me). to me, that really means its TOO effective at what it does, which is not even its main purpose (destroying aircraft).

- they are not even effective at destroying aircraft (the dangerous kind like high flying attack helicopters or fast air)

THINGS THAT NEED BE LOOKED AT: need deployable weapons to counter infantry/vehicles (one for each). also need to somehow integrate that into the commo rose..

the decision had more to do with gameplay than realism, but in a realism sense hauling tens of thousands of rounds for an AA gun versus stinger+10 missle is easier, plus modern armies much more likely to use a missle based AA solution these days... although Im sure AA guns are still quite popular. lol @ the thread ending up talking about geneva conventions

**snooggums** · 03-04-2008, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elwenil

He was probably thinking that RPM meant Revolutions Per Minute, which is common in machinery and engines. However, when speaking of firearms, RPM generally does mean Rounds Per Minute.

That still doesn't work because x per minute will still be x per minute, not 4x per minute no matter if you are talking rounds, revolutions, ducks or high fives. Maybe he thought the Vulcan was the one with the four barrels and so he multiplied?

**Sabre_Tooth_Tigger** · 03-04-2008, 07:57 AM

Its got 6 barrels but only one fires at once I think so I was really talking about Ferris saying 4 AAA guns can be deployed at just one bunker.

So if all 4 AAA guns are firing then (in theory) thats 24,000 rounds of ammo that has to be resupplied, its a bit ott if we want realistic ammo and supply lines to be represented by this bunker idea

Anyway we will get rockets now I see which is entirely different and quite useless on alot of maps so thats a big change there
Stingers can run out of ammo too so I kinda like the idea but I think bunkers will be a bit weak now

**Terminal Boy** · 03-04-2008, 08:09 AM

The barrels on the GE rotary barrelled guns (all calibres) fire once per revolution of the barrel group, so there will be a great difference between revolutions per minute and rounds per minute.

Sustained fire isn't going to last long on ground mounted versions as the barrels will heat up extremely quickly without the constant supply of cooler air that aircraft mounted ones have.

Plus the ammo hoppers would be empty real quick...

**Sabre_Tooth_Tigger** · 03-04-2008, 08:28 AM

Yea ours overheat but its still too easy. I think it can do 6000 rounds in theory rather then revolutions, not sure if it can manage that for a minute or not, the game spec exceeds the reality no doubt

03-03-2008, 03:17 PM	#46 (permalink)
Ferris Bueller Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Orlando, FL Age: 26 Posts: 4,966	Re: AA Guns ruining the game. Nope. Much easier way. Simply destroy all the AA implacements at back firebases/bunkers and you can deploy ALL of them at one firebase/bunker. So take fools road for example, you get one per firebase, one firebase per two flags. Say the militia has the brits down to their UCB, which means the militia has 6 flags, meaning 3 firebases + a freebie bunker. Thats 4 AA guns. If all of those assets are deployed around the map, but none have AA implacements, one could theoretically set up 4 AA guns at village and just destroy anything that moved in the british UCB. __________________ \|TG-6th\|Ferris Bueller Important TG Reading \| Support TG - Become a Supporting Member \| TacticalWiki - Your TG Guide Kicked/Banned? READ THIS FIRST! \| Complete list of TG Admins \| Think Someone Did A Good Job? Nominate Them For a Ribbon! Report Problem Players/Appeal Your Ban \| Learn TG - The TG Mentoring Program __________________ "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." -Lazarus Long

03-03-2008, 03:25 PM	#47 (permalink)
Sabre_Tooth_Tigger Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: افغانستان Posts: 2,450	Re: AA Guns ruining the game. I think they changed the rules for firebase & bunkers. You can always set 2 firebases and then 1 bunker at each flag you own (2 max) Right at the start of the game you can set 2 firebases right away for example I didnt know about the AA though. Doesnt seem quite right because those AA guns would need alot of ammo and just 1 bunker (at that point on the map) doesnt represent that amount of resources imo, ie. supplylines vulcan is 6000 rpm, so thats upto 24,000 bullets every minute. Thats a ton of lead __________________ *WWII German infantry weapons in detail*

03-03-2008, 07:48 PM	#48 (permalink)
DeltaRandyShugart Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: With my roomates Posts: 2,035	Re: AA Guns ruining the game. I think until they release a stinger missile version of the AA gun, thats when you will see it being used less and less against infantry.....the aa gun can help though its almost as if its your own personal heavy machine gun to quell infantry.......though i can see how it can sometimes be used too much. __________________ BHD DeltaRandyShugart, \|USMC\|Capt.America - PR Fmr.Gov.EliotSpitzer#9 - Arma If someone isn't following SL or CO orders in game/being a smacktard report them by typing this in global chat: !REPORTING "Follow my tracers!" *Ask not what TG can do you for you, but what you* can do for TG. 9/11 - Never Forget WWJDFTW?!**

03-03-2008, 08:26 PM	#50 (permalink)
kittykatnub Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Milky Way Galaxy Posts: 541	Re: AA Guns ruining the game. I think it's only considered overkill if you repeatedly shoot at the dead body knowingly. If you don't then it's fine. Also, if AA can't be used against inf (Geneva) then why aren't tanks, aircraft, helicopters, explosives, etc... __________________ unlocks_r_emo / Pistolfied ~ xfire = pistolfied ~ PSN = Pistolfied Video card shat itself. Awaiting on a new computer >.<

03-03-2008, 09:03 PM	#52 (permalink)
MarineSeaknight Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Southern California Posts: 654	Re: AA Guns ruining the game. With all this Geneva Convention aside, I am with Elwenil on this point. An AA gun, as devasting to infantry and light vehicles as it is, IS NOT a SUPERGUN. I'll use a comparison to show how silly it is to complain about AA guns being overpowered. A main battle tank, cannon, coaxial MG, and a .50cal MG. Can tear infantry to shreds, even infantry hiding behind most cover (HEAT rounds). Can withstand tank rounds, AT rounds, and the crewmen are not exposed. Can, theoretically, be placed almost anywhere. The AA Gun, 20mm rounds (Vulcan cannon I believe), can also tear infantry to shreds. CANNOT withoutstand tank rounds, AT rounds, and crewman IS exposed, adding to the list, all other types of fire. Can only be placed around bunkers and firebases (you find the AA gun that killed you, you find the spawnpoint). Main Battle Tanks are almost never complained about, because they are generally accepted to be powerful killing machines. It just has to be accepted that AA guns are ALSO killing machines, and should not be taken lightly. It's just AA guns are a HELLA LOT easier to kill than tanks. I wouldn't once run out of cover and not be surprised at a tank looking my way, and the same would go for an AA gun. Now I'll take note, that on maps such as Assault on Mestia, there isn't always armored vehicle support, but that doesn't mean you can't sneak up to the gun and shove a L-AT up his. Not... superguns. __________________ \|TG-X\|Marine -- Boom De Ya Da! United States Army Tankers Hooah! 10th Tactical Guard Server Rules and SOP \| Kicked? Banned? READ THIS FIRST! Contact an Admin \| Nominate your teammates for a ribbon

03-04-2008, 01:15 AM	#55 (permalink)
Elwenil Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Covington, VA USA Age: 34 Posts: 1,227	Re: AA Guns ruining the game. He was probably thinking that RPM meant Revolutions Per Minute, which is common in machinery and engines. However, when speaking of firearms, RPM generally does mean Rounds Per Minute. __________________ \|TG\|Elwenil StullUnlimited.com Offroad Parts and Fabrication

03-04-2008, 02:17 AM	#56 (permalink)
fuzzhead Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 579	Re: AA Guns ruining the game. yeap AA guns getting swapped to AA missles.... main reason, well, theres a few: - when 2 teams building firebases/bunkers in close area, it turns into a RTS style game of 'build the magical turrets' syndrome, and there are some ways to exploit the AA guns (if it gets destroyed, can be rebuilt right away etc) - firebases/bunkers being deployed specifically just to have the AA support, not really a good thing - main thing (for me) is that the AA gun is a more effective tool at suppressive fire than 5 50cals or 5 saws combined (i know because ive spent at least 40 hours in them on jabal, with full support squads with me). to me, that really means its TOO effective at what it does, which is not even its main purpose (destroying aircraft). - they are not even effective at destroying aircraft (the dangerous kind like high flying attack helicopters or fast air) THINGS THAT NEED BE LOOKED AT: need deployable weapons to counter infantry/vehicles (one for each). also need to somehow integrate that into the commo rose.. the decision had more to do with gameplay than realism, but in a realism sense hauling tens of thousands of rounds for an AA gun versus stinger+10 missle is easier, plus modern armies much more likely to use a missle based AA solution these days... although Im sure AA guns are still quite popular. lol @ the thread ending up talking about geneva conventions __________________

03-04-2008, 07:57 AM	#58 (permalink)
Sabre_Tooth_Tigger Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: افغانستان Posts: 2,450	Re: AA Guns ruining the game. Its got 6 barrels but only one fires at once I think so I was really talking about Ferris saying 4 AAA guns can be deployed at just one bunker. So if all 4 AAA guns are firing then (in theory) thats 24,000 rounds of ammo that has to be resupplied, its a bit ott if we want realistic ammo and supply lines to be represented by this bunker idea Anyway we will get rockets now I see which is entirely different and quite useless on alot of maps so thats a big change there Stingers can run out of ammo too so I kinda like the idea but I think bunkers will be a bit weak now __________________ *WWII German infantry weapons in detail*

03-04-2008, 08:09 AM	#59 (permalink)
Terminal Boy Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London, England Posts: 283	Re: AA Guns ruining the game. The barrels on the GE rotary barrelled guns (all calibres) fire once per revolution of the barrel group, so there will be a great difference between revolutions per minute and rounds per minute. Sustained fire isn't going to last long on ground mounted versions as the barrels will heat up extremely quickly without the constant supply of cooler air that aircraft mounted ones have. Plus the ammo hoppers would be empty real quick...

03-04-2008, 08:28 AM	#60 (permalink)
Sabre_Tooth_Tigger Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: افغانستان Posts: 2,450	Re: AA Guns ruining the game. Yea ours overheat but its still too easy. I think it can do 6000 rounds in theory rather then revolutions, not sure if it can manage that for a minute or not, the game spec exceeds the reality no doubt __________________ *WWII German infantry weapons in detail*

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