New Shader Effects - Page 2

**thegreatnardini** · 03-20-2008, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drayu

I dislike it because even if I am behind some sort of barrier/bunker/whatever, and an APC shoots anywhere near by....I am blind. I have seen a ton of Humvee Rush and Empty out to clear flags. Go in with the .50cal blazing from a distance, blind everyone, get in keep shooting in circles to keep them blinded, have your troops jump out and pick people off. Great idea, easily exploited, would like to see it tweaked.

In real life if you had an APC shooting HEAT rounds all around you, would you poke your head up to take a look? Realistic or not, I think that these new effects add a great deal to the dynamics of the game, and make people move cautiously. It may be a bit overdone, like getting slightly blinded when a teammate fires a gun next to your face, but I've never been in a real firefight so I wouldn't know how disorientating it can be.

Drayu · 03-20-2008, 10:45 AM

agreed, I wouldn't stick my head up nor would I know b/c I have never been in a firefight. I just don't like how it is being exploited.

**Charity Case** · 03-20-2008, 10:48 AM

To quote on of the devs:

Quote:

Originally Posted by (R-DEV)Jaymz

I think with some minor improvements it will be perfect. Still great as it is though

1. Only happens with 5.56 and higher calibre weapons (FH2 did this so we know it can be done)

2. Only "activates" after the round has travelled 10-20m (I think we can do this)

3. Is triggered when bullets go overhead (I think we can do this also)

If these changes are implemented I will be completely satisfied with the effect. The second and third changes would be especially nice, as they would improve both CQB and ranged combat. The only problem I see is from people who figure out how to turn off the effect.

Elwenil · 03-20-2008, 10:58 AM

A.Wickens, I see where you are coming from but like you said, in RL you would not normally have the option of going toe-to-toe with an enemy. And there is where the realism comes into play. This one change could very well change the way we all play PR. I for one see it as a good thing and a decided move toward realism, which is the point of the entire mod. Basically what I am saying is, you will have to play a lot more defensively from now on, and all the charging to the enemy isn't going to work as well as it once did. I think the suppression effect will eventually force everyone to rethink how they play and definitely consider the benefits of moving like a cohesive squad and acting a bit more professional. It's going to make the run and gun players seem more like suicidal, kamikaze lunatics than hardened soldiers. I welcome this change with open arms. It will be nice to not have the unrealistic tactics prevail all the time. I really can't stand when a lone soldier can "go Rambo" and charge a squad that is dug in and wipe them out with a little luck and stupidity. Hopefully this will dwindle down to a trickle as more players use more realistic tactics. Before you say "I don't like this because I can't do things the way I used to", ask yourself if a soldier in the field, who just wants to serve his country, backup his fellow soldiers, and get home safe after his tour of duty, would do something like what you are thinking.

**d1sp0sabl3H3r0** · 03-20-2008, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drayu

agreed, I wouldn't stick my head up nor would I know b/c I have never been in a firefight. I just don't like how it is being exploited.

My point is is that this not an exploit. This is a valid military tactic. Suppress - maneuver - flank - eliminate.

**Ferris Bueller** · 03-20-2008, 01:07 PM

Elwenil, I agree with your pointes to a large degree, but the one thing that keeps poking at me is where you asked if a "he who fires first wins" is the way it should be. I dont think so and thats kinda a skewed way of looking at things.

My reasoning is relatively simple: I'm a horrible shot. Everyone knows this. But by your logic, if I shoot at an enemy before he shoots at me, I should be able to win the fight every time. Well, that wasnt the case in previous versions. It was about pseudo-supression and accurate aim. You had to have your crosshairs on the mark and be fast on the trigger. In other words, you had to posess a degree of skill to win most firefights you got into. Now, all I have to do is line up a shot thats CLOSE, drop a bullet or two, then take my sweet time lining up a shot while the other guys cant do anything cause hes blind as a bat. Is that right? Relegating all the skill out of firefights in favor of a pseudo-realistic suppression effect?

Oh yeah, and wickens is absolutely right about CQB. You do more damage blinding yourself than you do actually killing people if you have to wax someone at close proximity.

Now, as far as it being a dose of realism, I can agree that a SLIGHT effect might be necessary, but this is anything but slight. I believe it was asked earlier if anyone has ever been shot at. Well, I havent, luckily. But the same logic applies in reverse. I have fired LOTS of firearms. Everything from derringers to full auto AK-47s. I've been at an open shooting range (meaning theres no dividing walls) with people firing guns less than 18" away from my face. My vision never occluded or went super-blurry, god forbid going dark AND super-blurry. Sure, it may hurt your ears a little bit if you put the gun close to your head and pull the trigger, but you're expecting that. Sure, you may experience something resembling a light vibration in your vision for half a second or so, but its certainly nothing thats going to make you miss your shot. Hell, RECOIL would do more to make you miss your second shot than any effect from a shot you take, even at close range!

westyfield · 03-20-2008, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller

Oh yeah, and wickens is absolutely right about CQB. You do more damage blinding yourself than you do actually killing people if you have to wax someone at close proximity.

Moral of story: Always bring a knife to a gunfight.

**Masterjack** · 03-20-2008, 01:17 PM

I would have to agree with some of the statements above. The effects do need to be tweeked so that friendly fire does not blur vision. I also think that the Special Forces kit should not get the blur vision period. If you know the training those guys get, you will understand why I say that. Now if they could work the BF2 rank system in with the suppression effect would be nice. The rank could help determine how blurry your vision got. The higher the rank the less suppression effects occur.

**d1sp0sabl3H3r0** · 03-20-2008, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masterjack

I would have to agree with some of the statements above. The effects do need to be tweeked so that friendly fire does not blur vision. I also think that the Special Forces kit should not get the blur vision period. If you know the training those guys get, you will understand why I say that. Now if they could work the BF2 rank system in with the suppression effect would be nice. The rank could help determine how blurry your vision got. The higher the rank the less suppression effects occur.

That's a nice thought Masterjack, but the whole points/ranking system is one of the large problems with vBF2 - I really don't want to see it in PR. It detracts from teamwork and puts the emphasis back on being an individual. I do understand where you are coming from with the thought, though.

**LoveSkylark** · 03-20-2008, 02:09 PM

Well I think the blur should only go up when somebody shoots really close to you.
I think the blur effect should fade of so if you’re being constantly shot in cover you will be able to do something after 10-15 sec.

I think there should be less effective if you’re prone with your sights up (you are anticipating enemy fire)

A way to counter the blur would also be nice, like be stationary and pressing sprint (representing adrenaline kicking in)

I love what they are trying to achieve with these changes and would not like it to be removed, only improved. Right now I feel it causes player to play the game in reveres to it intended purpose (realism), the run around with the gun set on full auto never really stopping in case some enemy is looking at them and when the spot somebody it full auto all the way, accuracy and recoil are not as important since the enemy is blind anyway.

Fenian420 · 03-20-2008, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0

That's a nice thought Masterjack, but the whole points/ranking system is one of the large problems with vBF2 - I really don't want to see it in PR. It detracts from teamwork and puts the emphasis back on being an individual. I do understand where you are coming from with the thought, though.

Would it be possible to set up a ranking system that goes moderately quick ingame? So everytime a new round is started everybody in server will be a Pvt. Then move up as he gets better? Cuz I like the idea of the ranking system for taking off effects of the suppression but if it was like the type of BF2V ranking system then that would be idoitic.

**A.WICKENS** · 03-20-2008, 03:28 PM

This is a very well reasoned debate and the posts have been excellent.

Now I'm going to throw something in that is bound to cause a knee jerk reaction so hold those verbal trigger fingers gentlemen before you all cut me to ribbons. What if you and your squad are cornered, why can't I charge a position and kill 2 or 3 people if my shooting ability and brass ones are up to it. Now I admit this is not what people would do ordinarily but it does happen (they give medals for that sort of thing). The game should make it difficult and it should require skill and a bit of cunning. What it should not be is in effect programmed out of the game. I am not suggesting this is happening yet with the current effects but can you see that there is a potential to go too far down that road, then what have you got.... you've got ARMA gentleman, so be careful what you wish for. (No offence intended lol, I've never played ARMA but I am led to believe it is quite a slog some times).

Soldiers do occasionally perform incredible feats (well in my opinion they do it every time the pull the uniform on) and this is still a game. Once in a blue moon I want to be able to have a Rambo moment as it were, based purely on audacity and skill. As silly as that sounds who hasn't got a massive buzz out of doing something in game that yes perhaps pushes the boundary of realism. Ferris haven't you grinned like a loon after rezzing your squad for the umpteenth time under fire. Nardini does ludicrous things in Jets that half the Navy and Airforce together couldn't manage etc. The game is only a representation of combat and some things do not have a direct correlation. The reason you respawn is because you represent a much larger force, the game only caters to 64 players ( I am quoting another member here, possibly Disposable so apologies for the intellectual theft).

However I agree we don't want the game to turn in to a vanilla style frag fest either.

**Crawlingeye** · 03-20-2008, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.WICKENS

Soldiers do occasionally perform incredible feats (well in my opinion they do it every time the pull the uniform on) and this is still a game. Once in a blue moon I want to be able to have a Rambo moment as it were, based purely on audacity and skill. As silly as that sounds who hasn't got a massive buzz out of doing something in game that yes perhaps pushes the boundary of realism. Ferris haven't you grinned like a loon after rezzing your squad for the umpteenth time under fire. Nardini does ludicrous things in Jets that half the Navy and Airforce together couldn't manage etc. The game is only a representation of combat and some things do not have a direct correlation. The reason you respawn is because you represent a much larger force, the game only caters to 64 players ( I am quoting another member here, possibly Disposable so apologies for the intellectual theft).

It would be cool if we had 1 shot of adrenalin in the inventory as infantry ^^. And when you apply it you become free of all fear

**d1sp0sabl3H3r0** · 03-20-2008, 04:09 PM

I agree Wick.

Here's the problem from a software developer's POV:

The complexity of what we would like to see requires too many variables and can't realistically be done, at least not without access to the core engine code. At least, that's my educated guess. There are just too many "if this and if that and not this and not that"'s involved to make it feasible. It's essentially a black and white issue - the gray area is just too vast to be handled with the tools available. Even the ability to not have the suppression effects if it's you that is firing near yourself as opposed to someone else is probably extremely difficult if not impossible.

Also, there is the balance issue. For every version up to now, one of the big problems is that you could have a SAW ripping away at your position, and all you have to do is pop up, fire, and you can one-shot kill that poor SOB. Now, who in their right mind would do that in reality? If some guy is ripping away at me, I'm certainly not sticking my head up to zoom on his head. Now we have the ability to suppress, move, flank, eliminate. SOUND military tactics and infinitely more realistic than prior versions. Perfect? No - there are weaknesses and flaws in the system. Ask Ferris - he has every right to be po'd about how the suppression system has made the medic kit exponentially more difficult to play than it even was in .7 when we lost the mini-map.

---------------------

So, I think it is up to us to provide constructive, well-thought out criticism/feedback to the devs if we feel so inclined. This isn't version 1.0 yet, and I'm sure there are adjustments to be made. Perhaps the best way to look at it is that we are all BETA-testers for the DEV team, and we are all working toward the finished product. This version is not final, and I have faith they will find a way to make it as balanced between realism and playability as they can when the end product comes out.

Delta*RandyShugart* · 03-20-2008, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kilroy0097

Picture yourself below a solid concrete wall being fired upon by automatic gun fire. You hear the bullets hitting all around you. You look for a way out of this mess but damn if you can't actually see anything. So you blindly pick a direction throw smoke for cover and run for it hoping for the best.

Can you imagine what the poor soldier on D-Day would experience if you went blind every time bullets hit the ground near you? Just imagine that in a game, not real life. Could you even do a Normandy landing with this kind of suppression effect? I don't think you could.

It's a good feature I think but it really needs to be tweaked and improved.

it is what the allied soldiers experienced, that and watching their friends being ripped to shreads by MG fire......and you can still shoot back, last night i was able to coordinate with my squad while we were being fired heavily upon and we got the MEC soldiers on EJOD running and dying, u can still shoot back, and in some cases the suppression isn't always so bad.

I am glad they put it in, it will be tweaked just like how the use of armor has been tweaked, but its a great effect, I am enjoying it very much, it adds more realism to the game.

03-20-2008, 10:45 AM	#17 (permalink)
Drayu Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: CT Posts: 159	Re: New Shader Effects agreed, I wouldn't stick my head up nor would I know b/c I have never been in a firefight. I just don't like how it is being exploited.

03-20-2008, 10:58 AM	#19 (permalink)
Elwenil Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Covington, VA USA Age: 34 Posts: 1,226	Re: New Shader Effects A.Wickens, I see where you are coming from but like you said, in RL you would not normally have the option of going toe-to-toe with an enemy. And there is where the realism comes into play. This one change could very well change the way we all play PR. I for one see it as a good thing and a decided move toward realism, which is the point of the entire mod. Basically what I am saying is, you will have to play a lot more defensively from now on, and all the charging to the enemy isn't going to work as well as it once did. I think the suppression effect will eventually force everyone to rethink how they play and definitely consider the benefits of moving like a cohesive squad and acting a bit more professional. It's going to make the run and gun players seem more like suicidal, kamikaze lunatics than hardened soldiers. I welcome this change with open arms. It will be nice to not have the unrealistic tactics prevail all the time. I really can't stand when a lone soldier can "go Rambo" and charge a squad that is dug in and wipe them out with a little luck and stupidity. Hopefully this will dwindle down to a trickle as more players use more realistic tactics. Before you say "I don't like this because I can't do things the way I used to", ask yourself if a soldier in the field, who just wants to serve his country, backup his fellow soldiers, and get home safe after his tour of duty, would do something like what you are thinking. __________________ \|TG\|Elwenil A vote for Obama is change we can believe in? So was the last ice age, but that don't make it good.

03-20-2008, 01:07 PM	#21 (permalink)
Ferris Bueller Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Orlando, FL Age: 26 Posts: 4,331	Re: New Shader Effects Elwenil, I agree with your pointes to a large degree, but the one thing that keeps poking at me is where you asked if a "he who fires first wins" is the way it should be. I dont think so and thats kinda a skewed way of looking at things. My reasoning is relatively simple: I'm a horrible shot. Everyone knows this. But by your logic, if I shoot at an enemy before he shoots at me, I should be able to win the fight every time. Well, that wasnt the case in previous versions. It was about pseudo-supression and accurate aim. You had to have your crosshairs on the mark and be fast on the trigger. In other words, you had to posess a degree of skill to win most firefights you got into. Now, all I have to do is line up a shot thats CLOSE, drop a bullet or two, then take my sweet time lining up a shot while the other guys cant do anything cause hes blind as a bat. Is that right? Relegating all the skill out of firefights in favor of a pseudo-realistic suppression effect? Oh yeah, and wickens is absolutely right about CQB. You do more damage blinding yourself than you do actually killing people if you have to wax someone at close proximity. Now, as far as it being a dose of realism, I can agree that a SLIGHT effect might be necessary, but this is anything but slight. I believe it was asked earlier if anyone has ever been shot at. Well, I havent, luckily. But the same logic applies in reverse. I have fired LOTS of firearms. Everything from derringers to full auto AK-47s. I've been at an open shooting range (meaning theres no dividing walls) with people firing guns less than 18" away from my face. My vision never occluded or went super-blurry, god forbid going dark AND super-blurry. Sure, it may hurt your ears a little bit if you put the gun close to your head and pull the trigger, but you're expecting that. Sure, you may experience something resembling a light vibration in your vision for half a second or so, but its certainly nothing thats going to make you miss your shot. Hell, RECOIL would do more to make you miss your second shot than any effect from a shot you take, even at close range! __________________ \|TG-6th\|Ferris Bueller Important TG Reading \| Support TG - Become a Supporting Member \| TacticalWiki - Your TG Guide Kicked/Banned? READ THIS FIRST! \| Complete list of TG Admins \| Think Someone Did A Good Job? Nominate Them For a Ribbon! Report Problem Players/Appeal Your Ban \| Learn TG - The TG Mentoring Program __________________ "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." -Lazarus Long

03-20-2008, 01:17 PM	#23 (permalink)
Masterjack Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Petawawa, Canada Posts: 101	Re: New Shader Effects I would have to agree with some of the statements above. The effects do need to be tweeked so that friendly fire does not blur vision. I also think that the Special Forces kit should not get the blur vision period. If you know the training those guys get, you will understand why I say that. Now if they could work the BF2 rank system in with the suppression effect would be nice. The rank could help determine how blurry your vision got. The higher the rank the less suppression effects occur. __________________

03-20-2008, 02:09 PM	#25 (permalink)
LoveSkylark Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Iceland Age: 33 Posts: 210	Re: New Shader Effects Well I think the blur should only go up when somebody shoots really close to you. I think the blur effect should fade of so if you’re being constantly shot in cover you will be able to do something after 10-15 sec. I think there should be less effective if you’re prone with your sights up (you are anticipating enemy fire) A way to counter the blur would also be nice, like be stationary and pressing sprint (representing adrenaline kicking in) I love what they are trying to achieve with these changes and would not like it to be removed, only improved. Right now I feel it causes player to play the game in reveres to it intended purpose (realism), the run around with the gun set on full auto never really stopping in case some enemy is looking at them and when the spot somebody it full auto all the way, accuracy and recoil are not as important since the enemy is blind anyway. __________________ TG-E1st TacticalGamer European Division \| Team up with us today! [

03-20-2008, 03:28 PM	#27 (permalink)
A.WICKENS Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: South East coast of England Age: 35 Posts: 204	Re: New Shader Effects This is a very well reasoned debate and the posts have been excellent. Now I'm going to throw something in that is bound to cause a knee jerk reaction so hold those verbal trigger fingers gentlemen before you all cut me to ribbons. What if you and your squad are cornered, why can't I charge a position and kill 2 or 3 people if my shooting ability and brass ones are up to it. Now I admit this is not what people would do ordinarily but it does happen (they give medals for that sort of thing). The game should make it difficult and it should require skill and a bit of cunning. What it should not be is in effect programmed out of the game. I am not suggesting this is happening yet with the current effects but can you see that there is a potential to go too far down that road, then what have you got.... you've got ARMA gentleman, so be careful what you wish for. (No offence intended lol, I've never played ARMA but I am led to believe it is quite a slog some times). Soldiers do occasionally perform incredible feats (well in my opinion they do it every time the pull the uniform on) and this is still a game. Once in a blue moon I want to be able to have a Rambo moment as it were, based purely on audacity and skill. As silly as that sounds who hasn't got a massive buzz out of doing something in game that yes perhaps pushes the boundary of realism. Ferris haven't you grinned like a loon after rezzing your squad for the umpteenth time under fire. Nardini does ludicrous things in Jets that half the Navy and Airforce together couldn't manage etc. The game is only a representation of combat and some things do not have a direct correlation. The reason you respawn is because you represent a much larger force, the game only caters to 64 players ( I am quoting another member here, possibly Disposable so apologies for the intellectual theft). However I agree we don't want the game to turn in to a vanilla style frag fest either. __________________ Someone once told the 6th to go to hell, so they did...and capped the Flag!

03-20-2008, 04:09 PM	#29 (permalink)
d1sp0sabl3H3r0 Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Suburban Chicago Age: 42 Posts: 1,335	Re: New Shader Effects I agree Wick. Here's the problem from a software developer's POV: The complexity of what we would like to see requires too many variables and can't realistically be done, at least not without access to the core engine code. At least, that's my educated guess. There are just too many "if this and if that and not this and not that"'s involved to make it feasible. It's essentially a black and white issue - the gray area is just too vast to be handled with the tools available. Even the ability to not have the suppression effects if it's you that is firing near yourself as opposed to someone else is probably extremely difficult if not impossible. Also, there is the balance issue. For every version up to now, one of the big problems is that you could have a SAW ripping away at your position, and all you have to do is pop up, fire, and you can one-shot kill that poor SOB. Now, who in their right mind would do that in reality? If some guy is ripping away at me, I'm certainly not sticking my head up to zoom on his head. Now we have the ability to suppress, move, flank, eliminate. SOUND military tactics and infinitely more realistic than prior versions. Perfect? No - there are weaknesses and flaws in the system. Ask Ferris - he has every right to be po'd about how the suppression system has made the medic kit exponentially more difficult to play than it even was in .7 when we lost the mini-map. --------------------- So, I think it is up to us to provide constructive, well-thought out criticism/feedback to the devs if we feel so inclined. This isn't version 1.0 yet, and I'm sure there are adjustments to be made. Perhaps the best way to look at it is that we are all BETA-testers for the DEV team, and we are all working toward the finished product. This version is not final, and I have faith they will find a way to make it as balanced between realism and playability as they can when the end product comes out. __________________ \|TG-X\|d1sp0sabl3 It's all MY fault, so deal with it! TG-X \| PR Server Rules \| TG SOPs \| Kicked? Banned? READ THIS FIRST! \| Contact an Admin Expand your gaming horizons - TGU \| How to nominate your teammates for a ribbon \| Thinking of putting on TG tags? READ THIS FIRST!!!! The TG Primer To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women.

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