A chain of command is NOT a democracy.

**viper759** · 11-04-2008 02:08 AM

Originally Posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0

Is this part really necessary? Is this going to turn into another IHS flame thread? I've seen enough of those lately. This has absolutely nothing to do with your post.

im not flaming IHS. more so saying if you want to convince the general public to ALWAYS obey the commander as a reasonable thing to actually happen. IHS squads are a good place to test if thats a reasonable thing.

for instance go commander and tell an IHS pilot and a non-IHS pilot to land troops in a zone with known AA, ill bet they wont do it. however ive seen that order alot from bad commanders.

**eekozoid** · 11-04-2008 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by viper759

go commander and tell [a pilot] to land troops in a zone with known AA, ill bet they wont do it.

That's usually an issue with communication. It's a good bet nobody's told the commander about the AA in the area. (I am dead serious)

I've commanded quite a bit in the past, and in my experience, most squad leaders don't regularly update the commander on their situation, even if asked for a situation report. If the commander gives you an order which you perceive to be poor, give him whatever information you can about your situation and the area you'll be moving into and then ask if he still wants you to go. Odds are that he won't throw a squad into a meat grinder for no good reason. Now, if you happen to be the decoy squad, that sucks, but it's part of life on the battlefield.

Go out on a limb and trust that your C.O. has a plan. Since commanders have been made near superfluous in the way of deploying assets, people probably won't go C.O. unless they plan to actually command and coordinate.

Delta*RandyShugart* · 11-04-2008 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by viper759

im not flaming IHS. more so saying if you want to convince the general public to ALWAYS obey the commander as a reasonable thing to actually happen. IHS squads are a good place to test if thats a reasonable thing.

for instance go commander and tell an IHS pilot and a non-IHS pilot to land troops in a zone with known AA, ill bet they wont do it. however ive seen that order alot from bad commanders.

^-IHS squads don't have to test anything nor do players at TG. Why does one have to convince the general public? People click on the server list to play at TG for a reason, and its not to get their a*$ patted.

this is what is wrong with America today, kids are brought up today in a world where they automatically feel they have earned respect, and with that they automatically feel that they are entitled to things, and don't have to show respect or even listen to those who are older than them or who are in charge.

In the opinion of this adult and FPS Multiplayer PC Gamer I feel it is wrong. (This is one of the reason's why games are rated the way they are)

Viper and all the other naysayers guess what? The rules that are set forth at www.Tacticalgamer.com are there for a reason and they supersede the thoughts that are running through your head as you spill them out in this forum. When you play at any TG server you have to adhere to TG's rules, plain and simple. Just because you are an SM or if you wear a TG tag, or if you are a regular on the server, or if you live next to any of the above or something extra special does not allow you to be exempt from following the rules, or choosing to do things your way.

The lack of respect especially towards admins and adults in the TG community as of late has been piss poor. Viper read over the SOP's and the rules of every server and maybe think to yourself why you decided to become a SM and now that you are, you still have to follow the rules that are set forth. Being an SM may get you on a TG server when its full but it doesn't mean that you can do your own thing, because that is not what TG is about.

PR is pretty straight forward, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what the premise is, but people still have trouble communicating, and maybe thats where you and others need some practice. And that does not include belittling a commander or SL or any other member of a team in game, its about stating clear and concise words in team chat or communicating clearly, and professionally whether you are using the In-Game VOIP or are on TG's TS server.

Also the line about IHS was so unwarranted, and is as tired as madonna's va-jay-jay, and really shows the lack of respect, and an elitist attitude, and as an adult and as a member of TG, i might be speaking out loud just for myself, but please knock it off.......this "Poor Me" attitude is pathetic, and holds no water, whatsoever.

Read the rules, follow the rules, treat players with respect work as a team, communicate as a team and have fun, now is that such a daunting task?

**caffeine** · 11-04-2008 10:50 AM

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Delta*RandyShugart* again.

**Pwn3ge** · 11-04-2008 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by caffeine

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Delta*RandyShugart* again.

Quoted for Trrrrrrrruuuuuuuttttttthhhhh

**d1sp0sabl3H3r0** · 11-04-2008 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by viper759

im not flaming IHS. more so saying if you want to convince the general public to ALWAYS obey the commander as a reasonable thing to actually happen. IHS squads are a good place to test if thats a reasonable thing.

for instance go commander and tell an IHS pilot and a non-IHS pilot to land troops in a zone with known AA, ill bet they wont do it. however ive seen that order alot from bad commanders.

But your argument appears to be that you'll follow orders if IHS members follow orders, which then implies that IHS members do not follow orders. Nothing could be further from the truth, and that is why I said your statement was uncalled for. Why should anyone have to defend themselves on the forums against this line of thinking? Yet, here we are again.

Anyway:

Any sane CO wouldn't order a chopper to an area where there is known AA. It's done based on bad intel, no intel, or stale intel. Either way, there is a communication breakdown as has been previously stated.

When I SL, which is quite often, I try to stay in touch with the CO if there is one. When I get an order from the CO that I disagree with then I will communicate that to the CO and talk it over. It may very well be that the CO has limited intel on what's going on and is making an erroneous decision, but this is based on my tactical awareness and not his strategic awareness.

Regardless, the point is to communicate with your CO and work it out if you don't agree with the order. You can do this regardless of tag.

**Katanama** · 11-04-2008 12:05 PM

When I think about it there are times where the commander gives me a movemarker and tells me attack like this and this. then I tell the commander that hey Im not able to comply right now just need to finish up here. If he agrees that its a good idea for my sq to finish what we are doing. I sometimes accept the movemarker and tell the squad "ignore that, just commander orders" when I think about it it seems like I am disobaying him though I am just doing something else first that we agree on. If some of the IHS members do the same it might have given viper the impression that they were disobaying orders.

**d1sp0sabl3H3r0** · 11-04-2008 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Katanama

When I think about it there are times where the commander gives me a movemarker and tells me attack like this and this. then I tell the commander that hey Im not able to comply right now just need to finish up here. If he agrees that its a good idea for my sq to finish what we are doing. I sometimes accept the movemarker and tell the squad "ignore that, just commander orders" when I think about it it seems like I am disobaying him though I am just doing something else first that we agree on. If some of the IHS members do the same it might have given viper the impression that they were disobaying orders.

Spot on!

Delta*RandyShugart* · 11-04-2008 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Katanama

When I think about it there are times where the commander gives me a movemarker and tells me attack like this and this. then I tell the commander that hey Im not able to comply right now just need to finish up here. If he agrees that its a good idea for my sq to finish what we are doing. I sometimes accept the movemarker and tell the squad "ignore that, just commander orders" when I think about it it seems like I am disobaying him though I am just doing something else first that we agree on. If some of the IHS members do the same it might have given viper the impression that they were disobaying orders.

All IHS Members communicate with the Commander, I can vouch for every single IHS Member who plays PR, but I don't need to, because the premise of viper's original post was "if the commander has a good strat ill run with it." Then when he posted again he wasn't posted as a player who has commanded, and he then edited his post to include that smug disrespectful remark about IHS in general, not just IHS that mainly play PR, ALL IHS at TG.

Now, if there is a communication error it is the SL and the CO's job to make sure that they are on the same page, because thats when things can go haywire. Kat, I have done the same thing with move markers and attack markers, and i agree 100% with it.
I will relay to the CO that "we're finishing up here and then will move to that position." In hopes that the CO will relay that info to the other squads. Now if a CO is adimant about me getting to a position, and he really feels that i need to stop what im doing and go there, then that's his call, and ill do it, I will alert the CO to alert other squads of what is going on, so hopefully that info will be passed along.

I've done the above when i have been commander sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. I will be the first to admit I was wrong as well. However Communication and relaying information is key, you can't just type stuff out, you have to get a headset/mic and communicate.

Many of you have heard me when i've been CO if they have any suggestions, A CO doesn't always know all, its not like people think days before making up strategies by candlelight at the hopes that they will command a round on a thursday night at 7pm and the map they were planning for is the map played. Maybe that has happened to some, but in reality i don't believe it does.

I have no problem asking for SL's suggestions as per what they think might be a good idea, there's nothing wrong with it. Communication is key though.

Viper wasn't making his platform on the fact that when he co's this happens or this happens, neither were some other naysayers of CO orders who posted, they used their opinion's as though their word was above everyone elses.

**Aranykai** · 11-04-2008 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Delta*RandyShugart*

Read the rules, follow the rules, treat players with respect work as a team, communicate as a team and have fun, now is that such a daunting task?

Your plan has one major flaw: TG is a pub server. Pubbies do not read these rules, they do not read your SOP's, and there's a high percentage of them that don't give a flying rat's behind about them. When such people end up on the server, they useually end up doing the following:

1. Making SL live's miserable by constantly ignoring directions
2. Wasting valuable kits that are needed for team balance. (IE maps where one side has armor, the other side has no more AT kits, you get the idea)
3. Creating their own squads who ignore orders, ignore other squads and further weaken the team by going off on a hike while objectives are being overrun behind them.
4. Taking Assets and wasting them, heli's, tanks, trucks etc... This includes the asset of the CO position.

Most of the time these players honestly think they are doing the right thing in some way or another. They are just either too inept or too immature to realize the damage they are doing to the team.

So, what my point is is this: Your rules and SOPs are all great and dandy until a pubbie comes in and throws a wrench into the works.

Originally Posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0

But your argument appears to be that you'll follow orders if IHS members follow orders, which then implies that IHS members do not follow orders. Nothing could be further from the truth, and that is why I said your statement was uncalled for. Why should anyone have to defend themselves on the forums against this line of thinking? Yet, here we are again.

You could have taken his post literally, "IHS squads dont waste assets or players when they know something is unsafe". Reading perceived implications is subjective to the individual, so perhaps you can stop being so defensive and consider what he's saying. He's not attacking you, try communicating.

**E-Male** · 11-04-2008 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Aranykai

When such people end up on the server, they useually end up doing the following:

1. Making SL live's miserable by constantly ignoring directions
2. Wasting valuable kits that are needed for team balance. (IE maps where one side has armor, the other side has no more AT kits, you get the idea)
3. Creating their own squads who ignore orders, ignore other squads and further weaken the team by going off on a hike while objectives are being overrun behind them.
4. Taking Assets and wasting them, heli's, tanks, trucks etc... This includes the asset of the CO position.

Warn them on first infaction, report them to an Admin upon repeated infraction. It helps to be in TG teamspeak for rapid comms with the Admin. The quicker, clearer, and more severe your response, the less such behaviour will propagate.

**Katanama** · 11-04-2008 03:26 PM

answers:
1. Report him or kick him from the squad, even though he don't know the rules he still have to play by them.
2. Everyone ends up wasting a kit sometime. A HAT kit should not mean the difference between ultimate defeat and being able to hold on (its only 10 min).
3. If they are SL and you the commander report them for disobaying, same as in the first.
4. Cant be helped but even though some of your assets have been wasted you can still have people doing good and trying to stay in the fight.

EDIT: as E-male said warn them first before reporting. Forgot that.

**viper759** · 11-04-2008 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by Delta*RandyShugart*

Also the line about IHS was so unwarranted, and is as tired as madonna's va-jay-jay, and really shows the lack of respect, and an elitist attitude, and as an adult and as a member of TG, i might be speaking out loud just for myself, but please knock it off.......this "Poor Me" attitude is pathetic, and holds no water, whatsoever.

a few things
- i have commanded. (typically i have no issue with squads following my orders as i actively ask for input on the next step for their squad and explain why i want to them to do the specific order)
- please quote where i disrepsected someone, if you read what i wrote as its written.
- i wont even go into the im whats wrong with america today comments. i havent said anything bad about anyone , only saying what ive seen as a SL and a member in squads.

ok so ive seen an IHS lead in my opinion do the right thing by saying 'yeah thats a dumb order we arent doing that' . to re-iterate exactly what my previous post said. lets break down my sentence.

"im not flaming IHS. more so saying if you want to convince the general public to ALWAYS obey the commander as a reasonable thing to actually happen. IHS squads are a good place to test if thats a reasonable thing."

something typically is not reasonable if a high percentage dont do it. as a squad lead and a squad member ive seen that under bad commanders, often times SLs dont follow their orders.

Delta*RandyShugart* · 11-04-2008 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Aranykai

Your plan has one major flaw: TG is a pub server. Pubbies do not read these rules, they do not read your SOP's, and there's a high percentage of them that don't give a flying rat's behind about them. When such people end up on the server, they useually end up doing the following:

1. Making SL live's miserable by constantly ignoring directions
2. Wasting valuable kits that are needed for team balance. (IE maps where one side has armor, the other side has no more AT kits, you get the idea)
3. Creating their own squads who ignore orders, ignore other squads and further weaken the team by going off on a hike while objectives are being overrun behind them.
4. Taking Assets and wasting them, heli's, tanks, trucks etc... This includes the asset of the CO position.

Most of the time these players honestly think they are doing the right thing in some way or another. They are just either too inept or too immature to realize the damage they are doing to the team.

So, what my point is is this: Your rules and SOPs are all great and dandy until a pubbie comes in and throws a wrench into the works.

You could have taken his post literally, "IHS squads don't waste assets or players when they know something is unsafe". Reading perceived implications is subjective to the individual, so perhaps you can stop being so defensive and consider what he's saying. He's not attacking you, try communicating.

First off, they are not mine, i am just a member of the community and I did not create the SOP's.

hmmmm i distinctly remember the loading up screen posts some informative information both from the PR community on the left side, and in the lower right side box there is information from TacticalGamer. I also distinctly remember that during the game some things flicker on the top left side of the screen, and are pretty informative, and above, all, lots of "pubs" come into the server but many ask questions, or go on tg's TS etc.......

Those who don't give a rats "arse" usually don't stay long anyways.

As others have stated, there is a simple way to report problem players and you can do it in, Global, Team, or squad chat simply do this:
!REPORTING and then follow it with what they are doing i.e. !REPORTING PlayerX tking for assets.

or something like that. Pretty simple, and if an admin isn't looking at the computer that very second they will be taken care of a few seconds.........TG runs a pretty tight ship, you can't hide for long.

Originally Posted by Aranykai

So, what my point is is this: Your rules and SOPs are all great and dandy until a pubbie comes in and throws a wrench into the works.

Not necessarily, because teamwork is a foundation that does run into problems but with a little communication and even help from other team members things that seem like huge problems can be handled pretty quickly, and even new players change their ways. I was a "pub" when i first played PR at TG and I cursed, i had a one man squad, and i remember using a tank by myself. But I saw that players at TG, don't mess around and it really is tactical.

Also what I wrote isn't aimed at "pubbies" because if you read the thread there are some regulars who feel that what is asked of you when a CO gives orders doesn't mean much.

Originally Posted by Aranykai

"IHS squads dont waste assets or players when they know something is unsafe". Reading perceived implications is subjective to the individual, so perhaps you can stop being so defensive and consider what he's saying. He's not attacking you, try communicating.

Aranykai,

I see you are new to the server, my advice is since you have found your way to this thread, is to look over the rules, it is in a sticky in this forum, read the SOP's and the Primer. Also sending a PM is sometimes better than replying to the public. Disposable isn't being defensive at all, he along with me, and many other IHS members and regulars @ TG who both wear or don't sport TG IHS tags, are sick and tired of people b*tch!ng and complaining about the lack of leadership of In House squads, or IHS in general. Its a tired, overused subject and if i could i would use a coat hanger to terminate it completely.

Delta*RandyShugart* · 11-04-2008 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by viper759

something typically is not reasonable if a high percentage dont do it. as a squad lead and a squad member ive seen that under bad commanders, often times SLs dont follow their orders.

I don't think its a typical response, and if this happened what did you try and do to correct it?

You are generalizing SL's often not following orders........did you do anything to try and correct the problem? did you PM an admin? did you get on TS and find an admin in the admin channel, or in a PR coordination channel? Did you warn your SL, and tell him that this is TG and not some random run of the mill PR server?

In regards to the commander did you try and help the commander with any tips, or letting him know about TS, or the forums? Or was he just bad and dumb to begin with?

I'm not trying to lash out at you just curious in all honesty, because and this might just be me, but your tone from the beginning seemed very disrespectful and rude towards what TG stands for as a whole.

I will admit i have gotten heated in some discussion's most notably in the sandbox area, but i've learned from my mistakes.

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