CAS infantery - Page 2

**MarineSeaknight** · 05-07-2009, 06:49 PM

When I fly CAS I try to remember the reason I'm in the air.

CAS stands for

Close Air Support - I'm not here for kills, I'm not here to WTFBBQPWN the enemy (Okay, maybe a little), but I'm really here to be the "911" call for Squad Leaders.

I'm in the SL channel on Mumble/Teamspeak, and also listening to the CO. It can get pretty jammed up sometimes with radio comms, but that's something you have to deal with I guess.

To be honest, it depends on the pilot how he wants to interact with his team. I'm usually really good at watching the text chat for CAS requests. Sometimes I often team up with an Infantry/Mech Infantry Squad Leader who I know will be in the sh*t often, and pay close attention to their requests.
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But the MOST important thing that makes it easier for you to get CAS, whether it's typed or said, is to be precise and short.

"D5 Key 1, 2 Enemy tanks and AA, Lasing AA now."

"On the way."

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Keep in mind that what I've said above works fine. There's other ways that work just as well, if not better, if you have a CO. But that's already been covered by Bulls

**warpig1292** · 05-07-2009, 07:16 PM

Whenever i have done CAS sqds i have always had a bad time recieving orders from another sqd for a target unless i have voice coms with them. They always seem to get something wrong and it usually ends up with the plane getting shot down. they dont tell if there is AA (even if there is) the lase is off or there are multiple lases, and they dont give your coordinates of the target.

On the other hands my most effective CAS round has been without a dedicated spotter. I think that it all depends on if you are in good communation with the sqd and they are accurately giving you a target and you are able to make a sucessful strike

Taip3n · 05-07-2009, 07:32 PM

You know, I am liking this thread more and more

All great input guys. Seems like balance, prudence, a clear head: to be aware of the needs of pilots and infantry, as well as variation of methods is coming out.

Sabre_Tooth_Tigger · 05-07-2009, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Whenever i have done CAS sqds i have always had a bad time recieving orders from another sqd for a target unless i have voice coms with them

Yep thats my impression maybe because it allows feedback on the quality of the cas calls. Too much comms can be a negative for a pilot though so ideally the gunner if separate, should handle that side.

I think CO could coordinate cas and leave giving out orders as a secondary role, just allowing squads to work together better should be enough

Exakter · 05-08-2009, 02:02 AM

my feel on CAS is simple. Most of the time CAS is mishandled anyways and the pilots suck = don't ever call it, it gets my squad blown up instead of the enemy one..

Against infantry targets = a waste. Unless heavily overwhelmed theres not much my squads cant take down. In maps like Baraccuda the choppers usually doing line-strafing which will and does chew up your squad instead.

Against Firebases - Sometimes, depends how far away and how well defended said firebase is. Usually however, AA is better manned then the choppers on my team so its a waste as well.

I only ever call CAS for enemy armor contacts that I KNOW have no AA support. At a minimum its minus 5 enemy tickets, and sometimes up to 12 on ONE vehicle, which is MUCH more worthwhile then a single enemy squad, that, if played properly wouldn't be out in the open much in Kashan for example - where most of the infantry fighting takes place under cover in the bunkers (due more to armor concerns then CAS).

On Muttrah, CAS is usually such a waste due to bad pilots...

Its honestly not a concern I keep in mind unless I personally know the pilot, and know he a) rocks, and b) listens to me and knows I know when to call in a strike.

I will Not call in a strike on a heavily AA defended position - knowingly.

Frankly CAS has an awkward place, and I find is best used SOLO ( as in one chopper) without a dedicated spotter, when they get tied down with spotters they become easier targets, and when they focus on one area, the same happens. They are best used as roaming assets/armor assets where they can assist the armor in destroying enemy armor/vehicles.

I get irritated when people think the be all end all on maps like Kashan are the bunkers. Unless one team is usually heavily stacked, the best way to use assets is primarily in the elimination of enemy vehicles. Once you get their tanks, then APCS, then their transport slowly fails and they can't hold anything anyways.

Using Choppers for infantry removal will usually get them blown up, maybe not on the first strike, or even the second... but they will die.

So my tip to choppers? Stay loose. I may not fly them, but I certainly blow a lot up, and thus have an infantryman's perspective.

Chat coordinates = poor usually. TS = confusing as you can't tell always who is giving you the target and thus it's reliability - safety for your chopper.

The best chopper I've ever seen was when I had one in my armor squad, and with 2 tanks + one Havoc, we literally eliminated at least 12 enemy tanks, unknown numbers of apcs and AA. We only ran into trouble when the enemy finally started sending both their apaches against us. We lost 3 tanks, and 1 havoc in retrospect though, so it was a success.

Sabre_Tooth_Tigger · 05-08-2009, 03:11 AM

Quote:

So my tip to choppers? Stay loose.

Yep I agree, if every game is played like a poker hand then the squad will always do better to avoid letting the enemy know your hand so repetition should be avoided, agreed

I think bluff counts for alot, every unit has its nemesis but they cant be everywhere

We had a good cas setup on baracudda earlier. I rarely play this map but we capped out chinese after a decent struggle.

It was a good team and there was a commander, he occasionally called in air support relaying requests and some intel from squads

The cas squad also had 2 snipers and shockingly they were pretty useful for intel and calling out some targets.
I would argue your best cas squad came about because it combined more then one type of unit. Giving more then one perspective increases accuracy where as a squad of just helis can just duplicate their risks & mistakes imo

I think ground intel is vital so the helis can be quick in and quick out for a hard strike with low risk ideally. One player or unit doing everything themselves never works best in pr

One pilot in the cas squad was excellent in holding back till needed and he didnt die at all. Patience and to continue the poker analogy, not over playing your hand too early in the game counts for alot in the success of the squad imo

I took a screenshot so I'll stick their names in best squad thread later, intel was a bit light as is true in most games but it worked out pretty well & was a smart game

Celestial1 · 05-08-2009, 02:43 PM

As a frequent pilot of CAS squads, I have a few things to clear up:

Dedicated Spotters are not always a bad thing! First things first though, they do NOT need to be the only ones calling targets! If a squad on Kashan is having tank troubles and they are pinned down, say capping bunkers, my spotter in the hills can see their call for help, look for the threat, and mark it up for me to come in. Also, he can direct me in precisely when I cannot get a perfect attack mark on the laze, making my attack more efficient; instead of looking for the laze, I can listen for the lock tone, fire, and ascend with only a brief exposure (as a jet, cloud level is my favorite place to be, as it means I'm about to kill something, and will be going back to the cover of the clouds soon to avoid aa/enemy jets) to the ground.

Another thing is that a lot of pilots will sort out your calls; you need to call them, and listen in to what they ask of you. If I am on TS, I have the G15 LCD open so I can see your name when you call up. When I hear your call, I will ask if you can laze, if there is AA, and what the target is/is doing. Your job is simply to relay the info I ask for, no need to be my secretary by adding unnecessary middlemen (relaying through CO when the TS channel is available and a quick strike is needed, lazed of course). That's what my SL is for.

If you have an infantry squad that is truly pinning you down (Firebase? Squad or two bearing down on your position?) Call out. Don't you worry your little head about whether I can take care of it or not, I'll let you know whether I can. If I can, be ready for fireworks because the A-10's gonna be dropping some missles into the area. Especially if the enemy fighter is down.

**chrisweb89** · 05-08-2009, 04:48 PM

As a guy who flies and spots quit a bit I love having spotters in the squad and as long as the pilots are good they make up for that one infantry guy missing. As an infantry squad leader trying to lase you have to pop up where they are shooting you, get a grid, report it to the CO or CAS squad and wait to lase all while they are shooting you, possible infatry flanking you and keeping your squad alive. That is a lot to do and then you cant see the AA hiding behind the ridge or anything like that only a small picture. As the spotter you can see the whole battlefield and have more time to deal with it since you arent usually underfire.

Even if CAS doesn't destroy a target close to the current battlefield just remember, that is one tank, apc or inf squad that wont come to bother you just because a spotter called him out from his position in the hills. I personally trust my sotter more than most SLs unless I have a crappy spotter, know the squadleader or have done runs for him that have been reliable. If there is a random SL lasing targets and not saying where or what then he is last on my list of things to do. If there is a squadleader who has been sending unreliable intel like no AA in the area or wrong grids he is last on my list too.

To those who dont call CAS in because the pilot usually sucks, they are always out of ammo or other reasons. Remember the pilots dont always suck and although they cant cap flags they can turn a game in my opinion by killing enemy tickets and vehicles. If they are out of ammo then chances are they have killed some other targets either from other squad or their spotter and will be back to help you as soon as possible.

**Startrekern** · 05-08-2009, 05:23 PM

I find it slightly ironic that for 30 minutes at a time there are absolutely no fire support calls -- and then in the space of 30 seconds every single person on the map seems to need you, and then yell at you when you've used up your ordnance and have to rearm.

**A.WICKENS** · 05-08-2009, 06:27 PM

Don't get me wrong I'm not knocking an efficient spotter and I fully appreciate the benefit of someone in direct comms with the pilot being able to walk them on to target as it were without being under fire. I am just questioning the mechanic, the system and whether it benefits the infantry on the ground.

I have in the past got the impression that the CAS role sometimes attracts the same type of player that takes the sniper kit without any understanding of their place in the set up of the team. I have also had my backside saved by some very skilled CAS squads so I am trying not to generalise. As Sl if I can call in CAS I really appreciate it and I know how to do it, plus I am flexible so if a CAS crew has an MO they want me to use I will happily adapt.

I have just found that on many occasions CAS is simply not available to me because they are being tasked away from the fight as it were, doen't mean they are being ineffective simply means they are doing their job out of my area of awareness as it were. Hence this is where the CO is so important, he can make the decision on tasking, does CAS support the infantry push on the bunkers for example or chase the retreating armour column in the desert, a call that I would venture to say the infantry SL nor the CAS spotter is qualified to make, as their view of the battlefield and therefore their perspective is skewed. Long live the CO.

daveyjonesjr · 05-11-2009, 02:54 PM

like wickens said, i think a CO is necessary for a cas squad to be really effective, I really dislike teamspeak because most of the time someone speak at the same time as my gunner, being a gunner have the same problem.

another thing wich piss me off, is bad spotter, sending laser on a tank when an aav is really near, and then the lase doesnt even stick on the tank and you get shot down by the aav( i cant even count how many time this happened to me....) so i learned to remember the good spotter and doesnt go on strikes from people i doesnt know.

Another thing is the gunner, TG community have very good gunner and pilot but sometimes you get someone who doesnt know what hes doing, i really hate seeing the laser before my gunner spot it himself..... so i learned to remember the good gunner or pilot.

Anyway, in my opinion CAS squad should always work directly with infantry squad and CO, and every dedicated squad leaders and sniper team should learn how to spot and lase correctly before calling for close air support.

Delta*RandyShugart* · 05-11-2009, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exakter

my feel on CAS is simple. Most of the time CAS is mishandled anyways and the pilots suck = don't ever call it, it gets my squad blown up instead of the enemy one..

Against infantry targets = a waste. Unless heavily overwhelmed theres not much my squads cant take down. In maps like Baraccuda the choppers usually doing line-strafing which will and does chew up your squad instead.

Against Firebases - Sometimes, depends how far away and how well defended said firebase is. Usually however, AA is better manned then the choppers on my team so its a waste as well.

I only ever call CAS for enemy armor contacts that I KNOW have no AA support. At a minimum its minus 5 enemy tickets, and sometimes up to 12 on ONE vehicle, which is MUCH more worthwhile then a single enemy squad, that, if played properly wouldn't be out in the open much in Kashan for example - where most of the infantry fighting takes place under cover in the bunkers (due more to armor concerns then CAS).

On Muttrah, CAS is usually such a waste due to bad pilots...

Its honestly not a concern I keep in mind unless I personally know the pilot, and know he a) rocks, and b) listens to me and knows I know when to call in a strike.

Frankly CAS has an awkward place, and I find is best used SOLO ( as in one chopper) without a dedicated spotter, when they get tied down with spotters they become easier targets, and when they focus on one area, the same happens. They are best used as roaming assets/armor assets where they can assist the armor in destroying enemy armor/vehicles.

I get irritated when people think the be all end all on maps like Kashan are the bunkers. Unless one team is usually heavily stacked, the best way to use assets is primarily in the elimination of enemy vehicles. Once you get their tanks, then APCS, then their transport slowly fails and they can't hold anything anyways.

Using Choppers for infantry removal will usually get them blown up, maybe not on the first strike, or even the second... but they will die.

So my tip to choppers? Stay loose. I may not fly them, but I certainly blow a lot up, and thus have an infantryman's perspective.

Chat coordinates = poor usually. TS = confusing as you can't tell always who is giving you the target and thus it's reliability - safety for your chopper.

The best chopper I've ever seen was when I had one in my armor squad, and with 2 tanks + one Havoc, we literally eliminated at least 12 enemy tanks, unknown numbers of apcs and AA. We only ran into trouble when the enemy finally started sending both their apaches against us. We lost 3 tanks, and 1 havoc in retrospect though, so it was a success.

Exakter,

I was quite pleased when you announced you were planning an scenario event, it made me think that your "elitist" attitude was finally changing (this is my own opinion as a project reality video game player). I even passed off your |?|tag and the reasons as to why you and some other players use it (my initial inclination since I truthfully haven't asked nor heard the background info in regards to it, was in fact in regards to maybe mocking |TG| tags and TG in house squad tags), thinking that maybe you finally starting to take that chip off your shoulder that has been weighing you down, but upon reading this, it has only made me realize that you really need an attitude adjustment, seriously grow up, you have no right to come onto the forums and blatantly put players into a group and say that all who fly suck, and how CAS is not handled in the way that you like it. I haven't seen you step up as CO when this has happened or even before the round begins, or maybe when you think it is happening, i just constantly hear you famale dog and moan, and then posting comments like the above just seams really rude and mean, to be quite honest.

I haven't heard you offer any advice on TS, nor have I seen you post anything in the tactics and tips forums regarding this.

Try to be more supportive rather than negative, reading this post might just really irritate people, or it might even make players think twice about giving you air support if you should ask for it, i mean, what wouldn't stop someone from targeting something you lased, if they read the above. because no matter what the outcome they might think that they suck and they can't hit anything anyways. - MHO Though my response to your post might be out of line, but get that chip off of your shoulder, stop complaining about how you always do infantry, etc etc etc, blah blah blah.

Now on to CAS infantry -

I have seen CAS work well with a spotter in the squad, as well as with coordination with other SL's. It has to be noted that, the SL cannot just mark a target and not tell anyone, it has to be broad casted, over chat, through the CO or if possible over TS, just because it is marked doesn't mean it will automatically be attacked, when possible give info regarding what is around the AO that you want a target to be hit, give as much info as possible, but don't do it as the jet or helo approaches, lase the target, and then if you have to correct it as the aircraft/chopper is inbound.

Give some breathing room, just because it didn't destroy the target fully, or if it didn't lase properly doesn't mean that its the pilots fault for not realizing it and thinking that he should have known and adjusted, that's now how it works, its a team effort, and sometimes the info goes through 2 or 3 people before it reaches the pilot with the full info.

I would really like to see A-10 Pilots use the gun more as well, just because you are out of bombs doesn't mean an automatic RTB, strafing can be just as helpful in certain situations, CAS, is designed to also annihilate infantry, and that is something more of what i would also like to see occur, I have seen it don't get me wrong but I am still hoping to see it occur more, with jets and Helo's, you can lase targets for jets to do strafing runs if u need to, and if anything it helps provide suppression that might enable your squad/team to slip in and take the flag/fb, etc out from under the other team.

**Startrekern** · 05-11-2009, 04:17 PM

Unfortunately, when most calls for CAS come in there is absolutely no information about where the laze is. You hear 'LAZING TARGET NOW' and then 5 minutes later.. "PILOT! WE DIED!! WHY DIDN'T YOU HIT THE LAZE?!?!"

**d1sp0sabl3H3r0** · 05-11-2009, 04:50 PM

As an example of how CAS can be used in conjunction with spotters not in the same squad to great effect on enemy infantry, read this AAR.

This dispels several myths:

1) There aren't any competent pilots
2) CAS on infantry is not effective
3) You need a spotter in the same squad

**A.WICKENS** · 05-12-2009, 09:12 AM

Exacter, FYI the bunkers have some significance on Kashan, what with the flags and all! I like Marine's analogy as it correlates with reality and functionality in my opinion. CAS is ...a support function. In...support of the man on the ground. I like, when available, the ability to call in CAS on a target that I determine needs to go. The pilot or F.A.C. can yay or nay it if thats the set up but I like having the option. Having a doctrine that its best used on this or that is blinkered and in my opinion outdated. In addition it is not relevant to the game in play as it were. If your armour has eliminated their's then you switch priority. Plus it should always be available for the SL's on the ground to put a distress call in when needed, defence of a flag, build up of enemy troops, enemy FB being constructed etc.

Whilst PR does not directly correspond to current military reality the Dev's are doing a fantastic job getting it as close as they can. Believe me fast air will drop a 500lb bomb on a mud walled compound if ground troops call it in and they have the ordinance. Wining games on potential stalemate maps like Kashan (or any for that matter) often depends on a bit of flexibility and lateral thinking. This entrenched rock paper scissors thinking for me makes PR very boring, players taking the same assets every round, going to the same location on the map to set the FB etc. I will sometimes shake things up if I'm bored and using CAS in my assaults and defences may be something I will try to develop further, so Marine if your around I'd love to give it a try.

I believe we have some very competent pilots and CAS operators at TG, slating them as a group is not cool. Flying things do tend to attract the children but thats BF2 for you, doesn't mean there aren't some very skilled, intelligent players out there fulfilling that role.