Buzzing Topics on the realitymod forums

[Celestial1]

Originally Posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0

But why have it fire a missile? Is it really necessary to add yet another "death from above" feature to PR? What would be the equivalent for the factions that do not get the UAV? Why does there have to be another CAS element on maps that don't currently have one?

Why have artillery, mortars, or a JDAM? All it is, is a new form of Area Attack. It won't be on all maps, and will only likely be on newer maps and the mapper decides to use it. It's just a different form of area attack, being more accurate but less deadly than a JDAM (JDAM can't hit a moving target currently accurately, whereas a hellfire-firing UAV can track lasers emitted by ground troops), however there would be only a few hellfires to use and each one cannot do the damage that, say, a JDAM, or an artillery shell can do.

The missile is because, well, that's what it fires. Why have a JDAM bomb? It's a 'CAS element' in that sense, isn't it? All Area Attacks are "death from above", so I don't know why you aren't complaining about those yet.

For non-blufor factions, they could either recieve the same (JDAM is a US device, not likely for opfor to have JDAMs!) or, just like certain maps, would have a different area attack than the other team (for instance while BluFor may have JDAM, the OpFor has artillery)


It wouldn't be on all maps, it would function just like any other area attack, and would just act as another 'flavor' of area attack. If the UAV can be programmed to act on it's own so that it would fire off hellfires on it's own when it recongizes a laser within it's attack range, then it wouldn't need commander input. I'm not too keen on the engine, but I'm pretty sure having it do so would require a form of AI, which is not likely to happen in the game. Therefore the reason for making it commander controlled.

[brettwad]

Originally Posted by sporkife

...and also the new marksman deploy mode, so there are more guns that can hit someone from over 350m accurately running around (good for killing LMGs, that thing is).

Are there really that many people in real life that can do this in a state of battle? The sniper and marksman kits should be fewer and harder to come by and targeting a running person much harder than a walking person, seems the same ease now, maybe not.

[Celestial1]

Originally Posted by brettwad

The sniper and marksman kits should be fewer and harder to come by and targeting a running person much harder than a walking person, seems the same ease now, maybe not.

There are only 2 sniper kits available on a full team (IMO, 2 too many on most maps, 1 too many on others), and marksman kits just aren't often requested in squads, due to the fact that it's tradeoff (slightly more accurate, but only semi-automatic) is less desirable to some players (Obviously, a player that loves CQB isn't going to get much love back from the marksman kit, and since engagements in PR are often around 100m or less, there just isn't as much use for them, unfortunately).

[chrisweb89]

From what I have seen in the videos the marksmen kit may be desirable again like it was in 0.75. Alos with the iron sight M14 I may be taking that into 50m enagements because from the video it looked half decent.

[d1sp0sabl3H3r0]

Originally Posted by Celestial1

Why have artillery, mortars, or a JDAM? All it is, is a new form of Area Attack. It won't be on all maps, and will only likely be on newer maps and the mapper decides to use it. It's just a different form of area attack, being more accurate but less deadly than a JDAM (JDAM can't hit a moving target currently accurately, whereas a hellfire-firing UAV can track lasers emitted by ground troops), however there would be only a few hellfires to use and each one cannot do the damage that, say, a JDAM, or an artillery shell can do.

The missile is because, well, that's what it fires. Why have a JDAM bomb? It's a 'CAS element' in that sense, isn't it? All Area Attacks are "death from above", so I don't know why you aren't complaining about those yet.

For non-blufor factions, they could either recieve the same (JDAM is a US device, not likely for opfor to have JDAMs!) or, just like certain maps, would have a different area attack than the other team (for instance while BluFor may have JDAM, the OpFor has artillery)


It wouldn't be on all maps, it would function just like any other area attack, and would just act as another 'flavor' of area attack. If the UAV can be programmed to act on it's own so that it would fire off hellfires on it's own when it recongizes a laser within it's attack range, then it wouldn't need commander input. I'm not too keen on the engine, but I'm pretty sure having it do so would require a form of AI, which is not likely to happen in the game. Therefore the reason for making it commander controlled.

But it's not an area attack! It's one missile that is fired by the CO onto one target. Surely you're not suggesting that it carry more than one, because then it's just an attack helicopter that the CO gets to fly around without risk of being shot down. Is it that way in reality? Sure, but here it is utterly preposterous and completely not what this game is about.

I'll stick with the JDAM or the artillery, thank you. Let the CO concentrate on coordinating the team instead of staring at the view from the drone while he's hunting for a tank somewhere on the map, because he sure as hell isn't commanding while he's doing that.

[Celestial1]

Originally Posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0

But it's not an area attack! It's one missile that is fired by the CO onto one target.

The UAV being implemented in v0.9 cannot shoot missiles while in flight.

The only way that may be possible to do this is for the UAV to be temporarily removed during the game, and replaced with a stationary UAV (that would fly in circles ala vBF2) for the time that an 'attack mode' is in use. After the 'attack mode' was over or turned off, the flying UAV would come back and it would function just as it normally would.

Therefore, this mode could be programmed to ONLY BE USED AS AN AREA ATTACK FUNCTION.

And by that, I mean that the 'missiles' could only be 'fired' under certain conditions, which could be:
(1) Only useable every hour, or half hour, etc
(2) Must be requested by Squad Leaders before it can be used
(3) Can only fire a set number of missiles per 'area attack'
(4) Can only be in 'area attack' mode for a defined period of time before it is disabled and the UAV goes back into 'recon' mode.
(5) Targets can only be engaged within a certain range (since the UAV would fly in tight circles, it could only hit targets it sees within that range, and the camera limits this even further since it is aimed to the ground at an angle.

The JDAM only hits one target (albeit, the target radius is a large one), and the missile could only hit one target (there may be multiple missiles, allowing multiple lases to be engaged during one area attack).



So again, it is an area attack, at least if it were implemented this way. If it were implemented so that the commander could fire the missile at any given point in time, then I would agree with your comments wholly; I wouldn't want him just tracking down things and killing them... but as an area attack, it limits the power, the use, and the range of the weapon, while still giving it a use that can help accomplish a task when used, just like JDAM and artillery are now.


(I believe that a lot of this confusion is due to the fact that I suggested it in this kind of detail in the PR forums thread, but not here directly. So, this is likely why some people don't realize why I was referring to it as an Area Attack; I don't by any means want to see missiles flying randomly from a UAV. However, having an area attack that, just like any other, is confined based on restrictions like time before use, time for use, ammunition available, restricted range, etc etc; but is able to accurately and quickly dispose of any lasered targets on the ground, within it's range and limits, would be a good alternative to inaccurate [but in their own way, effective] artillery strikes, or accurate but unguideable [again, effective in their own] JDAM strikes.)

[Taip3n]

Celestial, although I agree with alot of what you write and am glad of your vision, and believe that an asset for game development, and that this should be heard alot more so's good ideas can spring forth, I believe this UAV one to be a non-runner.

I agree with Dispo and others that it runs contrary to the game's development and that a good old mortar or artillery strike is the way forward. It should be called in by the people on the ground. Confirmed by command. And ordered.

In my civillian knowledge, to me, this is as close to the real deal as it gets and supports all modern military including organised factions across the globe as it stands, and has for many decades. For example Taliban forces today are likely not to have UAV but they do have mortars and use them very well; weapons from the past 70 years in all likelihood make up part of its weaponry.

In game then, it should be this way, even if it for simplicity sake for the game developers.

And to be honest putting on my civi head and thinking if I were a bod on the ground, I'd likely put my hopes into the guys on these pieces if I wanted something chewed up infront of me, as they are likely very near to me and within calling distance - please any real soldiers out there have anything to say otherwise I will be happily corrected in all instances, memories or examples, as deference is to you absolute, by me; my view and stance will of course adjust accordingly.

Let's leave the airstrikes to the couple of jets and uber helis in game. The rest is a pure infantry battle (assets like helis, tanks and so on could be left out alot more too in my opinion) with support from ground forces.

[d1sp0sabl3H3r0]

Originally Posted by Celestial1

The UAV being implemented in v0.9 cannot shoot missiles while in flight.

The only way that may be possible to do this is for the UAV to be temporarily removed during the game, and replaced with a stationary UAV (that would fly in circles ala vBF2) for the time that an 'attack mode' is in use. After the 'attack mode' was over or turned off, the flying UAV would come back and it would function just as it normally would.

Therefore, this mode could be programmed to ONLY BE USED AS AN AREA ATTACK FUNCTION.

And by that, I mean that the 'missiles' could only be 'fired' under certain conditions, which could be:
(1) Only useable every hour, or half hour, etc
(2) Must be requested by Squad Leaders before it can be used
(3) Can only fire a set number of missiles per 'area attack'
(4) Can only be in 'area attack' mode for a defined period of time before it is disabled and the UAV goes back into 'recon' mode.
(5) Targets can only be engaged within a certain range (since the UAV would fly in tight circles, it could only hit targets it sees within that range, and the camera limits this even further since it is aimed to the ground at an angle.

The JDAM only hits one target (albeit, the target radius is a large one), and the missile could only hit one target (there may be multiple missiles, allowing multiple lases to be engaged during one area attack).



So again, it is an area attack, at least if it were implemented this way. If it were implemented so that the commander could fire the missile at any given point in time, then I would agree with your comments wholly; I wouldn't want him just tracking down things and killing them... but as an area attack, it limits the power, the use, and the range of the weapon, while still giving it a use that can help accomplish a task when used, just like JDAM and artillery are now.


(I believe that a lot of this confusion is due to the fact that I suggested it in this kind of detail in the PR forums thread, but not here directly. So, this is likely why some people don't realize why I was referring to it as an Area Attack; I don't by any means want to see missiles flying randomly from a UAV. However, having an area attack that, just like any other, is confined based on restrictions like time before use, time for use, ammunition available, restricted range, etc etc; but is able to accurately and quickly dispose of any lasered targets on the ground, within it's range and limits, would be a good alternative to inaccurate [but in their own way, effective] artillery strikes, or accurate but unguideable [again, effective in their own] JDAM strikes.)

I see what you're going at but I'm just not convinced it really adds anything. Area attacks now work just like the real thing in that sometimes you hit what you want and other times you don't. Not every artillery strike in history, even recent history, has found it's mark, and that should be reflected in the game. In my opinion, the UAV/hellfire strike would be too effective (again, I understand it takes lasing/teamwork to function).

Actually, if any changes were to be made to the area attacks, I'd almost rather have them get rid of the JDAM altogether and just use artillery/mortars as they are much more effective.

[Taip3n]

^ Yup. What Dispo says.

I could only elaborate on the gaming/immersion level he refers to that the mortars/arty give for both sides.

One of the rare things I like, wierdly, is scuttling for cover as the Whomp!- of the first shells start landing. Thankfully in game and absolutely not refering to the real deal. It's like cat and mouse, because you know they are coming most likely after that and noobing a few is always satisfactory

Anyway. That Whomp is pretty much one of the best bits of the game. I like sound, and trying to keep alive, what can I say.

I echo his words about missing targets and the element of the fury and fog of war.

I also echo that I am glad I don't spell the word noobing wrong, yet.

[Celestial1]

Originally Posted by Taip3n

Celestial, although I agree with alot of what you write and am glad of your vision, and believe that an asset for game development, and that this should be heard alot more so's good ideas can spring forth, I believe this UAV one to be a non-runner.

Originally Posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0

I see what you're going at but I'm just not convinced it really adds anything. Area attacks now work just like the real thing in that sometimes you hit what you want and other times you don't. Not every artillery strike in history, even recent history, has found it's mark, and that should be reflected in the game. In my opinion, the UAV/hellfire strike would be too effective (again, I understand it takes lasing/teamwork to function).

Actually, if any changes were to be made to the area attacks, I'd almost rather have them get rid of the JDAM altogether and just use artillery/mortars as they are much more effective.

This post in short: I agree, I absolutely love artillery/mortars and the effect it has on players, but I also like the variety that things like the UAV would offer to teams. (Balancing these, of course, would have to be a high priority to ensure that the UAV doesn't have the ability to fire 14 hellfire missiles at any target within a 800m radius on it's own without the help of a team... etc etc; adding variety of course means to ensure fair-play and balance where necessary to avoid anything being a game-changer or a useless addition).


Well, you have to realize that just because I advocate an idea that I'm not always in full agreement with it. If I make a suggestion for the game, it generally falls into a few categories for me:

(1) I support the idea
(2) I don't support the idea, but I support the creativity and selection it provides
(3) I am looking to foster creativity


In this case, it's a toss between 1 and 2; I absolutely love arty strikes, because while being inaccurate, 'dumb', etc... They create a very hasty atmosphere on those who are on the receiving end, and I love the effect whether I am the sender or receiver as it adds a huge adrenaline rush, and a do-or-die moment to the game like no other.

However, I don't necessarily agree with removing the JDAM (not for the reason that it's better than arty; I love arty and mortars fully), because it has it's on distinct advantages and disadvantages that can make it more or less desirable in the long run. For instance, it will almost guaranteed-ly manage to destroy a stationary target it lands on, and it provides a large smoke blast that can be used to both confuse the enemy and use as concealment to advance. Because of this unique characteristics, I think that the removal of the JDAM will, in a way, reduce the creative strategies that can be used with it's use during a game. (Granted, I definitely think that it should be changed in some ways, to make it more useful than it actually seems to allow itself as of now, such as adding a 'shell shock' effect to really give a big advantage for advancing forces, and even perhaps allowing it to be used every 30 minutes due to it's large abundance and less destructive tendencies [many old bombs from previous wars and purchases can be easily converted into a JDAM by adding stabilizing fins and coordination chips, but is very much designed to only cause damage to it's direct target rather than as an area effect, to reduce any collateral damage from buildings and etc that surround the target] to allow it to be overall less destructive but more effective since it's lesser power can be used more often for it's other benefits.)

I think that having an extremely accurate, powerful attack that is balanced by having an extremely small range of influence in comparison (since the hellfire doesn't often damage anything but the immediate area it lands in) would be a relatively nice alternative, to maps that it fits to offer a little more variety (for example, a UAV attack for the US while the MEC gets an artillery on a map such as Kufrah, where Armor is abundant but cannot necessarily contribute directly to a flag capture; MEC will have a very powerful, very large-radius attack that can soften an area for assault very quickly and effectively, whereas the US will have UAV support to help take out visible enemy armor targets, which would help them move their armor up but would not soften the flag area nearly as well, leaving the US's armor needing to push and support their infantry to effectively capture flags).



IMO, I would also like to see, perhaps, a different area attack system; Instead of only having one choice per map, you could choose from a few of the area attacks available (designated by the mapper so that not all area attacks are always available on certain maps, especially where it is not realistic). Instead of having the area attack just 'load', you would somehow receive 'credit' for area attacks every 30 minutes. 1 credit would be enough for mortars, 2 for artillery, etc. That way, the system still has the same concept for each individual area attack (mortars = 30 min, arty = 60 min, etc), but now a certain area attack could be chosen based on the availability.

This would mean that if you are 1 hour and 30 minutes into the map, you would have 3 credits; This means, your team could call in one 'heavy' attack (arty) and one 'light' attack (ie mortars), or 3 'light' attacks. Of course, there would be a decent delay between the attacks to avoid 3 instant mortar attacks, and perhaps would have certain area attacks changed to 'fit' more into their category (as it is, there isn't a huge difference between mortars or artillery).

Let's say, with this system, you are playing Al Kufrah. Perhaps the mapper decided to give the US a UAV attack, and the MEC have JDAM and artillery attacks. The MEC has a considerably better layout for assaulting areas, and has a flexibility to choose it's preferred way to do so (attempt to arty the area to kill the enemy in the open, and send them running for cover; or JDAM the area and cause all of the enemies within radius to have a heavy shell shock effect, allowing the infantry to directly push up and assault directly with the advantage of a disturbed, confused enemy); in contrast, the US has a tool best suited for defense or destruction of higher priority targets (since it has a very small area of effect, it can only really handle destruction of vehicles that are lased, and therefore have to have already exposed themselves, or an attack directly on a concentrated infantry force like a squad traveling too closely together, or enemies in a particular building) which encourages a different strategic element for the US team.



Having this kind of variety and ability to 'customize' your large-scale assault, or your defense, with the discretion of the mapper to avoid encouraging any unintended actions from the teams.