Celestial1

It was for the end round screenshot. It's the equivalent of any pilot thinking it was a good idea to fly the helicopter into the end round area for a screenshot.

I realize this, and I agree; the baserape definitely needs to be halted here and now. However, like I said, that APC squad in particular was in no way involved with the mosque shootings as far as I know, and were only doing it for the end round screenshot. And, as far as I can remember, no helicopter pilot was ever prosecuted for doing something like this, and it happens relatively often.

And I'm not quite trying to defend it; in retrospect it might have been a bad idea, but I still think it was worth a chuckle and enjoyed it; if no one was harmed in the process, all the better. If it is decided that this behavior is not tolerable, I would prefer to have it known rather than be picked and chosen based on what vehicle was used, etc etc, since it has been done so many times before in other methods, the main one being by helicopter.

Cache marker was near the courtyard, NW of the Mosque area, if I remember correctly. Half of the British team was keeping the insurgents attention from the North while some (including my squad) came from the south taking advantage of this fact to sneak into cache areas. Shooting into the mosque if they weren't firing back would have been completely taking it too far, as far as I am concerned. If they were firing in self defense, I'll let someone else decide, because personally I believe that if they couldn't fire back in defense, especially if using a proper munition to do so (as opposed to say splashing in a ton of HE shells to wipe up the gunner and another 15 players that were next to him) then they shouldn't be allowed to fire out at all.




I still ask for a clarification on the Mosque rule, so that at least I know what is in the right or wrong, and can tell others who are or are not violating the rules apart; If someone is firing out of the Mosque, is it completely against the rules to fire back? I for one would think that if an RPG gunner is standing on the wall at mosque is looking at one of my team's armor units, I would gladly gun him down in order to prevent any deaths on our side. However, if it's against the rules or not I am still iffy on.

It seems strange that they can abuse the rules to the point that they can shoot out but no BluFor could shoot in to dispose of a threat.

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Delta*RandyShugart*

You can't fire into it if you are a blufor soldier.

Insurgents can fire out.

Fallujah is the only exception because it's not a central spawn point.

It's in the rules

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P.I.C. No F.S.
NYY NYR

Spitfire14

Damn. When people shoot at me, I do this thing called "moving." I either drive, fly, or run some where. Its worked out pretty well for me.

d1sp0sabl3H3r0

You're an admin, you're on the insurgent team, you see complaints about baserape during the round, you see on teamchat that there is a warrior inside the mosque and then the round ends and VOILA! there's the warrior in the end-game screen shot.

What would you think was going on?

BTW - The chopper in the end of round screenshot isn't usually - no - never - inside the enemy main base.

Come on guys, use your wee little brains every once in a while!

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Axis_Sniper

While we are on this subject, I would just like to ask: What is the rule on Insurgent mains? not mosque, but their actual main where vehicles and kits, and other things spawn.

We were in Ramiel and we had a group of US troops firing into the Insurgent main on the northern outskirts of the city. They insurgents that were being killed didn't even have a chance to leave the base, as they were trying to pick up kits or get on bikes.

I told an admin about this and he couldn't come up with a definite answer, seeing as the rule only talks about conventional army main bases, and insurgent mosques with permanent spawn points.

What's the clarification on this?

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Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine, regardless of the level of advantage, if any, it gives over the opposing team.

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Namebot

It is a teams main base, treat it as any other.

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Celestial1

I understand that. I'm just letting you know what happened, from my point of view. From what I know, they didn't fire a shot. If I'm wrong on that note, I will gladly kick myself in my own soft-bag.


By the way, the Mosque does have a dome of death, from what I remember. They couldn't have baseraped from inside there, unless it has since been changed, which I doubt. The baseraping had to have been done (and was definitely solely done) by the squads from the North since a Scimi, a Warrior, and a bunch of infy squads were turtling out past the Northern Outskirts of the city.

The Warrior that was in the end round screenshot was, for about 80% of the round, in the SW outskirts of the city, near the gas station/bridge, and hadn't been out of that area unless rtbing, or later in the round when we began an attack on slums they were NW of the slums, on the road. At no point beside the very end when they decided to do this were they in firing range of the mosque at all.

Yes, it's been done; and of course, specifically (and probably exclusively, I guess?) on Basrah. It's doesn't happen now of course since the Lynx has been completely removed from the map, but I assure you it has happened many times before, even back when we still had the merlin on the map.


Again, why I am asking for a clarification; if we are treating it as any other main base, we could return fire.

4. Units firing out of the main onto enemy forces may receive return fire, otherwise you are not to fire into the enemy main base to spawn kill.

2. BluFor forces may not fire into a mosque area with a permanent spawn point, ever, as this mirrors real-life ROE. Camping outside a mosque spawn point for the purpose of racking up easy kills is also prohibited. (clarification added 11-23-2008)



So, the Mosque area is completely off limits, and cannot be fired into whatsoever, whereas any other insurgent main is treated just like a conventional main base. If this is the case, perhaps rule 2 could be re-written as such to be a bit more clear, to solve the inconsistencies?

2. Insurgent bases are to be treated as such:
(a) Main bases are to be treated just as any other team's main base. Refer to Rule 4 below.
(b) If a Mosque is present that acts as a permanent spawnpoint, BluFor is not allowed to shoot at enemy combatants within the Mosque area under any circumstances.

Since the rule seems to have been made sometime before we had started recieving more insurgent maps, I think it has kind of been biased to the layout of Basrah, since it is the only map besides Ramiel, I think, has had mosques, and since the Ramiel mosques are so heavily 'hidden' within the city, it isn't an issue; in a map like Basrah where the mosque is half of the city, it tends to cause issues.

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d1sp0sabl3H3r0

The British main (airfield) on Basrah has a dome of death too, but this does not prevent Big Red and it's smaller cousins from inflicting damage.

I don't really care where they were the entire round, it isn't germane at all. It's where they ended the round that is the problem. As I explained in my prior post, putting together the circumstantial evidence prior to the end of the round with the screen shot of the end of the round sure makes it look like they were base raping. Of course this makes me have to spend 2 hours of my time watching the BR file to verify what they did in the mosque. All this to simply be clever and get into a stupid screen shot. Thanks a lot. I want my 2 hours back. Glad you all got your funny little screen shot.


Don't care. It's this particular instance that is the issue now, not what may or may not have happened at any point in the past.



The mosque rule was added after the release of Ramiel and after Basrah was fixed (networked object count issues with destroyable statics resolved), whatever PR version that was. It's purpose was, and still is, to prevent farming kills for intelligence gathering, as the insurgent team spawns within the mosque and is essentially corralled within the mosque walls with only one or two points of egress. The BluFor team has the opportunity to sit on higher elevation buildings, specifically on Ramiel, and abuse their scoped kits to just annihilate the insurgents as they attempt to move toward the exits. In similar fashion on Basrah, the BluFor could position themselves to also fire into the insurgent main from certain locations, although certainly fewer of those exist due to the height of the walls surrounding the mosque. In the case of Basrah, with the walls being able to be scaled and the surrounding rooftops available as firing platforms to the insurgents, I would have to say that any insurgent who places himself on those positions is now eligible to be fired upon as they have left the safety of the mosque proper. The rule provides the insurgents safety while on the ground so they can organize, get pick-up kits, get vehicles and move without fear of being picked off. In the specific case from Wednesday, the insurgent firing the RPG had clearly left the safety of the mosque to fire on the enemy armor to the north of the city and deserved whatever fate he got.

Lastly, and for the final time, the warrior had no business being where it was at the end of the round. Trying to explain it as something fun to do is the same justification people use when they say they only teamkilled because there were a few tickets left on a map and it was over with anyway. It doesn't matter and it doesn't excuse it at all. If the rules don't apply in these circumstances then I guess they just shouldn't apply at all, right? As soon as we allow these types of things to occur then we where do we draw the line the next time?

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LeadMagnet

Now that you've had a chance to see the BR (downloaded it again myself) you can see that the only time we fired was on person with the rpg and a sniper on that wall with the coax only. Although we did try to first suppress the sniper by firing at the wall under him as he engaged infantry moving in on the cache location (which was exactly where we thought it was on viewing the BR). We made no attempt to splash heat rounds around trying to farm kills.

Several times we moved west to try and get a better angle on the doorway to the cache location trying to destroy it with HE. This was when we were almost mined and moved northeast to still cover the cache. Someone said we should have just done our job. Funny thing was supporting the infantry and identifying cache locations is the job of the recon scimitar. Spitfire said if he takes fire he moves, pretty simple. We did the same if he had bothered viewing the BR. We tried at the oil pipeline and nearly got mined so we moved. We tried 40m further NE and took all kinds of flak for killing the rpg gunner so we moved west of the road. There we took rpg fire from the construction site and moved again. Point is we stayed in that location supporting infantry until the cache went down. Prior to that we had also been north of the gas station supporting the firebase and other armor there.

Not to be disrespectful as I enjoy playing on the server but this added to other factors that night (receiving main gun fire from one of the warriors) and listening to someone else slag our members on mumble at the start of the round definitely put us on the defensive that game. I thought we were finished with all this unnecessary crap and now it seems to be boiling over again.

d1sp0sabl3H3r0

Lead - I have no issues with your actions that night on the server. As for the other crap, if I would have been privy to it I would have done something about it.

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Celestial1

A dome of death that is almost absolutely useless due to the fact that it doesn't inflict damage for 30+ seconds and then after that does so very slowly.

I'm pretty sure the Mosque DoD is a lot quicker of a death. If it's not, then it should be.

Still never been prosecuted in the past. It's still a precedent, whether it is used or not in decision is another question.

Apparently others on the insurgent team didn't think so.

They obviously didn't know that the wall doesn't count as part of the base, and began whining due to the ambiguity of the issue, causing you to spend your time reviewing a BR file.

Again why I mentioned the helicopter incidents; it happens far too often with the helicopters, which have no business being in the end round screenshot either, but people do it. Perhaps that's an issue which we should begin making attempts to stop, if only specifically on Basrah. If players know full well they will be kicked/banned for doing this whether they fire or not, there will be a lot less times where you have to review a 2 hour BR file, right?

Yeah, it's silly to do so. I'm sorry you had to spend 2 hours reviewing a BR file just to end up finding out nothing. Or whatever you may have found. I'm sorry people cry baserape thousands of times even when there isn't baserape.




I have a feeling the warrior wouldn't have been a problem at all, or nearly as much as it was, if there were no cries of baserape. The circumstances made it an issue, I think.

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d1sp0sabl3H3r0

You're missing my point entirely, Celestial. You're justifying the actions of the Warrior and excusing it because it was the end of the round. You can cite other examples of helicopters, of timer on the dome of death, blah blah blah - it is all meaningless and I'm not buying the whole precedent thing here. It's weak.

Above all of it is the fact that it is apparently ok to violate the server rules to get a cool screenshot. This is wrong.

My position is that it doesn't matter, and what makes it worse it that it wasted my time investigating this in the first place. I wasn't investigating the scimitar on the rpg, either. I was reviewing the file for the actions of the warrior. The scimitar was in the right to engage the rpg as he had clearly left the safety of the mosque to engage the scimi, whether he thought he had at the time or not. On the wall or surrounding buildings is not inside the mosque. Regardless, we're going in circles here, but I think my point is pretty clear: don't enter the enemy main whether it is with 1000 tickets left or 1. Follow the rules of the server. Period.

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Celestial1

You're missing my point, as well.

I'm not trying to justify it past the fact that it's never happened before. Until then, I think it would only be fair to punish the player if they for any reason began baseraping. Like I said, I think it was a silly thing to do, a bad idea in hindsight; but since it's never been done before in this manner, it would be slightly unfair if any punishment was dealt to those players if they weren't breaking other server rules.

If being in the Basrah screenshot area was against the rules, there should have been far more punishment dealt to those who flew on Basrah and did so; However, it was never done, and therefore was never established as a 'bad thing' in some players minds.

However, like above, perhaps this is an issue that should be stopped, even if only on Basrah, by kicks/temp bans to discourage the action. It's not clear in the rules that it shouldn't be done, and afterall it is a game, so it's likely to happen one way or another.


If it is punished, then you won't have to sit through 2 hour BR files (whether they baseraped or just sat in the main for screenshot alike); you'll only have to ask for names and then type out a simple kick/ban message, right?

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llPANCHOll

Hasnt this thread run its course?
It seems to be going in circles now.

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snooggums

I think you are trying to argue that the main base rules are specific to main bases (no entering ever) and the mosque rules are noted differently (no shooting in or spawn camping) to come to the conclusion that in a mosque you can't spawn camp but since it isn't a main base then you can enter and not spawn camp.

From the main rules:

I think you have still failed to grasp dispos first answer:
As diposable says, if the main base is off limits, it is off limits, no matter the reason. The chopper pilots were above or flying towards the main base at round end, not inside the base. And as you said, you aren't trying to argue past events right?

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