Once again..ROE Mosque spawnpoint

**STealthBanana** · 10-11-2009, 10:20 PM

I'm really sorry to have to bring this issue up again, but today something really upset me.

First of all let's have a look at the rules

Quote:

5. Basecamping:
2.BluFor forces may not fire into a mosque area with a permanent spawn point, *ever*, as this mirrors real-life ROE.

Ok, from my point of view the rule clearly says that
BlueFor forces must not shoot into the mosque no matter what circumstances are given.
or as it says here into the mosque area.
So because of what happened tonight, we'll unfortunately have to clearify what the mosque area is. why do we have to do that?

Well, the following happened on Ramiel.
As all mosques on this map are a no fire zone for any BluFor forces, me (collaborator)
and my sniper, climbed up the mosque roof.
We had a cache close by and were able to pick off a couple of guys.
After sometime the cache got destroyed, which forced us to move
onto the next mosque.
Once up there we spotted 2 hostile strykers and an infantry squad that dismounted from one of them. We happily opened fire, with the knowledge they are not allowed to shoot back.
But they started to fire back, not directly at us, but close enough to supress us.
So i typed out in global chat that they are not allowed to shoot inside the mosque.
A quick silence and my sniper killed the next one.
Right after that my sniper got killed by the stryker.
So i typed out..once again.. in global chat that it's not allowed blabla..no matter under what circumstances..there was also a green admin text on the top left screen telling the stryker gunners to hold fire, but they didnt stop.
I wasn't able to revive my sniper so i got hold of the kit.
The strykers were holding fire, probably discussing if they were really allowed to do what they had done.
So i took that moment to kill another guy sitting right next to the stryker.
And just in that moment the stryker opens fire to kill me.

Ok, of course there was a lot of chatter going on because of that.
But then two things happened.
First a TG member admitted to be the stryker gunner, who killed us both.
and then another TG member (obviously part of this stryker team) typed out the following: "Well you were on top of the mosque, it's not where you actually spawn so we were allowed to engage you"
also: "We are allowed to shoot back, if you shoot us first".
Also it has been said that the sniper is such a big threat to them like an RPG.
So let me ask you one thing: how is a guy with a rifle(lee enfield scoped) a threat to someone who is more than 300m away, while he has to wait at least 5 seconds to get a precise shoot going off his rifle?.

So let's have a quick look at the rules AGAIN.

Quote:

....may not fire into a mosque area with a permanent spawn point, *EVER*...

So let's clearify a couple of things:
1. The roof of the mosque is clearly a part of the mosque area, therefor BlueFor forces must not engange anyone who is up there.
2. If an insurgent engages a BlueFor force from inside the mosque area the BlueFor force
must not shoot back.
3. I'm not whining because we lost a sniper kit, I'm sad, that people who are supposed
to have knowledge of our rules violated them not once, not twice but three times.

I am NOT requesting a bann, I am not even requesting any consequenses.
I am applying to you to read through this post and to read through the rules again.

I know that it might have been a GREY zone at that moment,
but I am just too dissapointed not to write it down.
I hope i made my point, It took me all my knowledge of the english languages to explain this situation as well as i could to you.

machineofdeath · 10-11-2009, 10:43 PM

IMO i think the whole can't fire here or their is a bunch of BS, if BLUFOR is fired upon from the mosque or an uncap, i think those who are firing are fair game to be shot. I also think that if its ok for insurgents to fire upon or attack the BLUFOR main, its only fair for BLUFOR to attack uncaps. I understand the realism issue but lets get real, its kinda unfair.

**STealthBanana** · 10-11-2009, 10:53 PM

Quote:

I understand the realism issue but lets get real

let's get real, we are playing Project Reality.
we have rules and I, personally, stick to them, because i expect everyone else here to do it aswell.
But it's just a bunch of BS.. ^^

**RememberTheAlamo** · 10-11-2009, 11:00 PM

Rules are rules and if you are playing on TG then you should stick to them especially if you are a TG member

Machineofdeath yes i can see how it can seem unfair that blufor can't attack mosques but that prevents any kind of baseraping which can become very bad after a few minutes if you are insurgent. Don't forget how much more powerful blufor can be if they use their vehicles and weapons correctly.

google · 10-11-2009, 11:04 PM

I'm pretty darn sure that this rule was enforced to stop any kind of main base camping/raping. The way I see it, you're exploiting the rule to try to be invincible, which is a bunch of crap really.

**STealthBanana** · 10-11-2009, 11:16 PM

the rule you are talking about is the clarification that has been added on the 11-23-2008
to stop people from camping outside a mosque to get some easy kills, intelligence or whatever

Quote:

Camping outside a mosque spawn point for the purpose of racking up easy kills is also prohibited. (clarification added 11-23-2008)

**Rtoups** · 10-11-2009, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STealthBanana

the rule you are talking about is the clarification that has been added on the 11-23-2008
to stop people from camping outside a mosque to get some easy kills, intelligence or whatever

But the stryker gunner was NOT camping outside your mosque, and you know it. There was a sniper team on the roof of the mosque, firing onto BLUFOR. The stryker gunner made a decision and eliminated you. We both know the Strykers were not camping the mosque in anyway, so don't pull that card here.

Second, you made the assumption that the person who said "the roof does not count" was part of the Stryker team, but they were not.

How is a sniper a threat? You killed a squad member, so obviously you are capable of killing the enemy, so obviously you are a threat. Also, I don't see the point you are trying to make here. The sniper is less of a threat than a RPG, so therefore we shouldn't be allowed to kill it? What about a regular soldier. Surely they are less of a threat, so we should just let them be and only kill RPG guys? Come on, that's not reasonable.

I understand why the rule is in place: to prevent camping of a permanent spawn. However, if you are going to exploit that rule to gain invincibility, you should be fair game. US troops are allowed to engage targets in a mosque IRL after going through the proper channels. Obviously, we can't exactly replicate that, but we do know that American troops aren't just gonna let a sniper pick off dozens of troops if they know the sniper's position.

I believe the rule needs to be changed to allow BLUFOR to take out a specific target if and only if that target has fired on BLUFOR troops. In the above situation, the Stryker team had you sited for 5 minutes. We did not shoot to kill until you took out a member of our squad.

I know we strive for realism here. I don't like spawn camping more than any of you guys. But there's gotta be a compromise here, for gameplay's sake. Nobody should have invincibility simply because they are chilling in a minaret or sniping on the roof of the mosque.

machineofdeath · 10-11-2009, 11:57 PM

I understand & follow the rules all the time. I just think it sucks that the blufor can get baseraped with bomb cars, rpgs, mortors & snipers all the time, making it difficult to do anything, unless you get a squad or two to build defenses asap, which I normally try & do. Just like the blufor can't baserape, I think it would be equally fair for insurgents not to baserape. For an insurget to sit in their mosque to shoot at blufor, thats pretty cheep & to be honest, if I'm getting shot at well i'm gonna shoot back no matter where you are, to survive & protect my teammates.

**snooggums** · 10-11-2009, 11:58 PM

I think disposable answered this clearly in the last thread about the same issue:

Quote:

The mosque rule was added after the release of Ramiel and after Basrah was fixed (networked object count issues with destroyable statics resolved), whatever PR version that was. It's purpose was, and still is, to prevent farming kills for intelligence gathering, as the insurgent team spawns within the mosque and is essentially corralled within the mosque walls with only one or two points of egress. The BluFor team has the opportunity to sit on higher elevation buildings, specifically on Ramiel, and abuse their scoped kits to just annihilate the insurgents as they attempt to move toward the exits. In similar fashion on Basrah, the BluFor could position themselves to also fire into the insurgent main from certain locations, although certainly fewer of those exist due to the height of the walls surrounding the mosque. In the case of Basrah, with the walls being able to be scaled and the surrounding rooftops available as firing platforms to the insurgents, I would have to say that any insurgent who places himself on those positions is now eligible to be fired upon as they have left the safety of the mosque proper. The rule provides the insurgents safety while on the ground so they can organize, get pick-up kits, get vehicles and move without fear of being picked off. In the specific case from Wednesday, the insurgent firing the RPG had clearly left the safety of the mosque to fire on the enemy armor to the north of the city and deserved whatever fate he got.

From: http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...ml#post1359353

The rule is there for base camping, and while the mosque itself may be inside the walls I'm guessing any admin would treat it like an external wall as it is clearly not where an insurgent would spawn and be the subject of spawn camping.

machineofdeath · 10-12-2009, 12:04 AM

Its not like the mosque is their only spawn point, how many do they have, uh lets see, 1 spawn point for every cache, plus another what 15 or so random spawn points, plus hideouts being built. What does the blufor have? One main spawn point at all times being camped by insurgents, 1 spawn point for each squad only and a few firebases that get distroyed often. Not really equal on that part I think.

**Rtoups** · 10-12-2009, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by machineofdeath

Its not like the mosque is their only spawn point, how many do they have, uh lets see, 1 spawn point for every cache, plus another what 15 or so random spawn points, plus hideouts being built. What does the blufor have? One main spawn point at all times being camped by insurgents, 1 spawn point for each squad only and a few firebases that get distroyed often. Not really equal on that part I think.

But BLUFOR has superior weapons and superior technology in general.

**STealthBanana** · 10-12-2009, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rtoups

But the stryker gunner was NOT camping outside your mosque, and you know it.

I never said the stryker was camping outside the mosque.

I responded to google's post when i noticed the clarification, I'm not pulling any cards.

"How is a sniper a threat?"
That's a good question. Especially at a range of around 300m.
Also i killed him at the third shot, so he did have the time to move into cover, pop smoke
or move somewhere where he cannot be seen by me.
But he didn't. he waited for me to shoot him, giving the stryker a reason to kill me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rtoups

but we do know that American troops aren't just gonna let a sniper pick off dozens of troops if they know the sniper's position.

Then there are two ways. kill him, which will lead to a discussion like we have now.
leave him, retreat and reposition where you are not in visual range. for example.
but again that's not my point.

My point is that TG members who are supposed to know and follow the rules just ignored me and everyone else telling them to hold fire.

**STealthBanana** · 10-12-2009, 12:24 AM

I did not follow the thread about the incident on basrah.

Quote:

had clearly left the safety of the mosque [...] and deserved whatever fate he got.

Ok, but how am i supposed to know where the safety of the mosque ends?
I assumed, until the very moment i read this quote from dispo, that the safety of a mosque ends when you walk outside the gate, or when you are on the other side of the wall.
It's not clearified in the rules that the rooftop is not in the "safety zone"
and that's why i thought we must not be shot up there.

**Ferris Bueller** · 10-12-2009, 12:29 AM

Let me break this down very very simply so you can understand it:
The rule has its origins in the UCB camping rule. It was decided a long time ago that UCBs were not to be camped. People began abusing this rule, and firing out of UCBs, thinking they were invincible because of the rule, and anyone who shot them could be reported. The admin staff, realizing this loophole, quickly sealed it by amending the rule to say that UCBs are no attackable, but if you shoot out, you're fair game.

The same applies to mosques. Just because a rule is in place does not allow you (BANANA) license to exploit the rule by camping inside to get free kills. Now, I realize that you were the collaborator, but you're equally as at fault as the sniper. Now, seeing as you were exploiting the rule, and you were the only ones killed by the resulting reign of fire by the players in the vehicle, there is no harm done. YOU exploited a rule. YOU got killed.

Bottom line: quit whining. If you're going to abuse the system, dont complain about people breaking the rules to correct the abuse. This is common sense, and I would have expected that as a long-time member of the community and as an IHS member, you would IMPLICITLY UNDERSTAND THIS.

Dont exploit loopholes, lest your actions be corrected by force.

Simple enough for all parties? Good.

Oh, and if you're still wondering how a sniper at 300m is a threat, perhaps you should watch one of the better PR snipers picking people off from >500m and finishing with ridiculous K/D ratios.

**Spitfire14** · 10-12-2009, 12:32 AM

The safety of the mosque ends when you sit on the roof and kill people from it. Dont shoot from the inside/on the mosque and you wont be killed. Once you leave, you're fair game.