No rally point feedback thread - PR .874c

[Startrekern]

Korrengal is absolutely, positively the ONLY insurgency map in PR that does not work without rallies. (It barely works with rallies.) The others work spectacularly and gameplay is not changed. If anything, the length of the round is longer because people are more careful. When people go and say, "Insurgency doesn't work without rallies! It's too long, and US always looses!" They probably don't think about how it was BEFORE no rallies -- the same was true unless the US was coordinated or lucky. The only possible negative effect this has had on insurgency is the lengthening of the round by 30~ minutes which is not a bad thing.

[Sabre_Tooth_Tigger]

Who won Ramiel today

[Namebot]

Insurgents, 5 caches remaining.

[Namebot]

Insurgents, 5 caches remaining.

Korengal has the stryker for blufor to clear the hills around the main. Trying to walk down the road from the main never seems to go well, unless your goal is to distract the insurgents while another squad slips by up the hillside or some such. The getting out of main base shouldn't be so different from before, its once you are out in the field that you have to change your playstyle, right?

[Bullseye2550]

i prefer the b version with the fob settings of c (200m distance, ...)

like cougar said, getting killed by a full squad after getting his medic and 4 of them a few seconds later is not cool.

i also think korengal can work if you have a decent main defend squad.

If half of the us team or more would go together i think its possible.

[STealthBanana]

korengal yesterday was hell for me...not only because of the "russian" hacker.
We were shot up from every possible direction and everytime we had an engagement
I was only able to get up half the squad or at least the SL to set a quick spawnpoint
only to get torn apart again a minute later.
I don't blame that on the changes though, rather on the maplayout itself, but that's not the topic.

Personally I prefer the 0.874b version, because as it has been said, I don't like it when
you kill 4/6 guys only to get engaged by 6 half a minute later.
On the other hand I must admit it's quite handy that you can still spawn near your squad if you happen to die.

What I really like about the 0.874c version is the space allowed between FBs.

[Golgo13]

Seriously? Snoogums - the game play for the US side is horrible on Korengal. We would need to change the server rules regarding baserape for it to be even half way decent.

AAR from today: We spawned at outpost and immediately moved out, knowing that the Taliban rush to the hilltops north of Outpost were already under way. Not wanting to get destroyed by a hail of gunfire we would do nothing about, we ran like scared little girls and hid until intel provided the area for the first cache.

Once we had intel, we moved south across the river to act on it. We were too late to get the first cache, but the next spawned not too far away and we moved in on it. I was lucky enough to find and destroy the second cache. There was no resistance - yet. Soon after, the Taliban descended upon us. Luckily for us, we were linked with Rudd's squad so I used them as a meat shield (sorry Rudd ) and moved away from the contact.

Rudd eventually linked with us near the Taliban base in A8 where we went to destroy their mapper-placed rally and then move to Laniyal (or whatever). Of course by now the Taliban team knew where we were and were coming at us.

Problem #1: Insurgent teams don't care if they die. They have spawns all over the place, from mapper-placed rallies to caches to hideouts that require no logistics at all to deploy. They always have a spawn somewhere on the map.

We made it to Laniyal just in time to get assaulted in full force by the Taliban team. It was of course just a matter of time before we were overwhelmed. Back to main.

In the meantime, the rest of the team was having the same problems as us. The only cache marked on the map was in the cave sw of outpost, so it was a fortress with no way in, especially without a rally point. I guess the SLs could have stayed outside with another squad member to keep crapping out bags to spawn on but they didn't or they got flanked by the enemy team that was no doubt encircling their position like buzzards over road kill.

Problem #2: Korengal is impossible to construct and maintain a firebase for the US team. No matter how many people you have defending it, it will fall. You are left with spawning in the main with either .874b or .874c. Add to it the lack of helicopters and you have 0 mobility to get out.

The entire US team was in main, and by this time the Taliban had managed to acquire several SAW kits. Despite valiant attempts to cross the river or to climb the hills south, we were repulsed repeatedly by a hailstorm of bullets and rpgs. We were trapped and getting mutilated by the second with nowhere else to spawn.

It was at this point that !runnext was issued and the spawn-camping-rape-fest-omatic came to a much-needed end.

Why would anyone want to experience this? Is it like the car accident that you drive by and you know you shouldn't look at the bodies in the road but you just have to?

Sounds pretty much like what would (and did happen to other armies) irl with no air cover and most importantly no air supplies. That the map is tough for blueforce is aright, after all Korengal is considered one of the hardpoints in the war, however with the rally point changes some other changes need to be implelmented.
Air supplies are a must and maybe we get the developers to implement aircover as well, after all its what safes the blueforce irl over and over again in korengal valley.
Trying to get a truck anywhere on Korengal is really really really tough.

[Rudd_medicman]

Korrengal is absolutely, positively the ONLY insurgency map in PR that does not work without rallies. (It barely works with rallies.) The others work spectacularly and gameplay is not changed. If anything, the length of the round is longer because people are more careful. When people go and say, "Insurgency doesn't work without rallies! It's too long, and US always looses!" They probably don't think about how it was BEFORE no rallies -- the same was true unless the US was coordinated or lucky. The only possible negative effect this has had on insurgency is the lengthening of the round by 30~ minutes which is not a bad thing.

I think that airdropped supplies would fix this, that way the US can set up FBs where they want without having to run the deathtrap gauntlet with a truck, a second stryker and less humvee would also help (though something like a cougar, the half way between hummer and stryker would be even better if Cheeseman ever finishes that vehicle)

[sapientiea]

I myself like the the 'b' version better since it seems to slow the rushing down and it promotes tactics, something I have been waiting for a long time.

Maybe it is possible to make rallies possible only when you have killed X number of opponents + a time limit?

[d1sp0sabl3H3r0]

Korengal has the stryker for blufor to clear the hills around the main. Trying to walk down the road from the main never seems to go well, unless your goal is to distract the insurgents while another squad slips by up the hillside or some such. The getting out of main base shouldn't be so different from before, its once you are out in the field that you have to change your playstyle, right?

Was being used. Didn't matter

i also think korengal can work if you have a decent main defend squad.

If half of the us team or more would go together i think its possible.

We had that yesterday (at least half the team leaving main) and it didn't work. You were in my squad yesterday and experienced the fun for yourself as we tried time after time to leave main.

Again, the Taliban side does not care if they die and there is no impact when they do die. This is by far the biggest imbalance on the map. They have mapper spawns, some permanent, some not, all over the map. They have caches to spawn on. They can build 5 hideouts, 200m away, and they require nothing to build those other than a SL with a cell leader kit. No logistics - nothing.

The US team has Outpost and Camp Murphy, with the Outpost spawn disappearing after 5 minutes. Sure, they can build a FOB in Outpost, and they do it every round. Outpost usually lasts for about 10 minutes before it is overrun as the Taliban enjoy the height advantage to the entire north flank and will always win the war of attrition against the US, who are cornered in Outpost. Don't forget the fact that the FOB that is most likely built in Outpost will be rendered obsolete without the Taliban actually entering the perimeter of Outpost. Outpost is a waste of time and a lost cause for the US team.

That leaves either building a FOB somewhere else, spawning in Camp Murphy, or spawning on a SL rally point.

Building a FOB somewhere else can be done. What cannot be done, however, is to keep the FOB active for any real duration of time. The map is too small, terrain too harsh, and you are surrounded by Taliban spawn points. It is essentially a lost cause to try to build one, and after the round starts it is impossible to get a truck in or out of Murphy to build a second FOB.

Squads make it out at the start of the round no problem. But once the Taliban are on to their location the game is over for them. The US team, who is by game mode supposed to be the attacker, has the unenviable task of trying to play both defender and attacker at the same time. There just isn't enough manpower available in PR for a team to play both roles. The Taliban do not necessarily need to directly defend their caches, and I would argue that they will have a much better chance of losing the map if they actually did. Instead, the map design and spawn dynamics actually favor the Taliban playing the aggressor on this map. Relentlessly chasing the US team around the map, overrunning their FOBs and wiping out squads (which is done pretty easily) will eventually lead to the US team being forced to spawn in Camp Murphy only. By this time Murphy is encircled from the north and the south on the high ground and the escape route east is easily blocked as well. At this point the US team is defeated, no matter how many strykers they have in their main or if they leave as a blob or not.

You guys can all think differently if you want, but after having the complete misfortune of playing this map in both version b and now version c as both US and Taliban, it plays out the same every single round and ends up being a complete rape-fest. Such fun.

However, I'm leaving it in the rotation so everyone can experience it for themselves, at least for today. At some point it will become a server-killer and then it's coming out no matter what anyone says.

[Rudd_medicman]

^ and don't forget that even in normal .87 the US get raped alot

[mat552]

Actually it never really occurred on TG server unless the US team not only dropped, but then gift wrapped and then gave as a gift to the taliban, the proverbial ball. There were a few memorable times in which the US won on korengal before the changes.

Yedit!

The only possible negative effect this has had on insurgency is the lengthening of the round by 30~ minutes which is not a bad thing.

It is if we don't have 30 extra minutes and want to see the round out. It can also be much..muuchh longer than 30 minutes.

[WDT_Alpha_s9]

i also think korengal can work if you have a decent main defend squad.

If half of the us team or more would go together i think its possible.

I want to believe this too... although I haven't played US on Korengal since the no rally change. I believe Dispo though, it sounds like they have a really hard time getting out of the main.

I'd say coordination and tactics could overcome this, but I think that the level required may exceed reasonable expectations of the average team. That alone probably means that this map either needs some major edits or to be abandoned.

[davemccr]

So, my new rig is up and running and have played A, B and Now C. I like the fact that rallies are still here sort of, but, would it be possible to have them set able once every 3 minutes with no "overrun" timer, unless they are overrun or destroyed? I like the idea of not being able to constantly drop rally's but like I mentioned earlier being an INF squad leader. Is a royal pain without a rally, especially if there are no transport squads running.

Last night my INF squad was defending both bunkers on Kashan, and received not more than 3 crates in 2 hours. We were at the mercy of our team. If some of my squad went down, the only place we could spawn was on a firebase, and if they went down we were up the creek. If we were able to place a strategic Rally, we would be able to be more effective.

I know that it may not seem like a big deal, but if you are in an armour squad, or a chopper squad... you have a lot more independence. As Infantry, we are dependent on others, and not having a rally to spawn on makes us even more dependent.

I've also noticed that Flag control doesn't seem to matter as much as it once did. Is this the case? Or am I imagining that?

[Startrekern]

Korrengal is being revamped in PR0.9 anyway. The outpost is the new main and largely expanded and Murphy is gone, replaced with a village.