asch

Folks. There is nothing wrong with this thread. There does however seem to be a little misunderstanding of its intent.

This thread is meant to discuss the area of good commanding. Let's keep to the topic of commanding and the communication between CO/SL.

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Root

That wasn't the OPs intent, but ok. I call (yet again) for anyone CO'ing to learn proper radio procedure. If I have to spend 15-20 minutes (this is common) just trying to raise you, in order for me to provide you with an initial sitrep, you've effectively lost a squad for that amount of time. As an SL who caps flags and makes things go boom, I don't have time to waste. I frequently don't have time to respond to markers (in the sense of pgup or verbally) because I'm under fire on my way to said marker. This is why we have a rule requiring COs to primarily stay back and command. Someone has to be in a position to clearly look at the larger picture. There are a whole bunch of threads containing information that will point you in the right direction. Forum search is your friend.

A COs role is not simply to drop markers, and announce that supplies / arty are available. A COs role is strategic, against an SLs role being tactical. The difference, for those who don't know, is that strategic is long-term (how the CO plans the entire battle to unfold, with contingencies ready at all times) and tactical is short term (how the hell do I get my squad across the 200m to the next marker?). As a CO, don't make the mistake of trying to do the SL's job, by telling them how to get to where they're going. That doesn't mean you can't issue an order not to go a certain way. Neither does it mean you can't order that an assault takes place from a particular direction. Those are both strategic decisions. If you start telling an SL which corner to turn you're well inside of tactical territory. This is the SLs domain and you (for better or worse) are interfering at that point. When you step up to CO, you should already have a plan for winning. It might turn out to be a bad plan, but you need to have one.

As an SL, I'm all for knowing the big picture, if the CO is in place before the round starts, and he orders everyone to stand fast while orders are issued. If the CO steps up mid round, I just want to know there IS a bigger picture and that the CO gets it. To turn it around, when I CO, I let squads on defence know if theyre remaining at the same flag when the next one turns, if they're leapfrogging an existing assault, if they're moving in a completely new direction, or if they're reinforcing at one of the existing assaults. I do this on request and when I know they're not under fire. The last thing an SL needs is a full blown speech on the squads new orders, whilst taking fire from a couple of squads of hostiles.

Intel is the key to any victory. You don't get that by talking at your SL's. You get it from talking to them. The CO is part of a squad, that has up to 9 SL's in it. SLs listen when an SM reports intel, and COs need to do the same when SL's have something to say. If an SL utters the word urgent whilst requesting permission to transmit, the the CO needs to drop what they're doing. I've explained the reasoning for using the word "urgent" in a previous CO thread (why it couldn't have been used instead of creating a new thread is beyond me). If an SL uses "urgent" inappropriately, deal with them later in an appropriate manner. At the time, they are the center of the COs universe and get their full attention and resources.

Nobody is excluded from having the opportunity to step up and lead the team. Quite the contrary. We are in desperate need of competent COs and the only way to get them is through trial an error on the part of those who are willing to give it their best shot. That said, it is your best that we require as players. If you're not in the mood for taking it seriously, don't do it (in fact if you aren't in the right frame of mind, hit another server and blow off steam). It only takes a little thought prior to hitting that apply button, to make the difference between a good and a bad attempt at leading. You can do an outstanding job and still have your team lose. When you leave this thread, go and do a bit more reading up. Then next time you're playing, give it a try. You might enjoy it.

I'll close with a lesson I find myself repeatedly delivering to CO's in-game. Don't send a transmission to all SLs about how "it's no good most of the squads aren't doing what they're told" when you have one or more admins as squad leaders and / or on your team and / or on the server. You know who the admins are, because you read the SOP's........right? Clearly not from my experience. The SOP's are required reading. Go and read them right now. If you have one or more problem squads, you resolve it thus : identify a single problem squad. Tell the SL that you hold them accountable (this word is key) for the actions of their squad, and give them orders. Tell them to report any problem players to you. If the squad doesn't follow orders, report it to an admin. The SOPs go into greater detail on reporting players. This lesson deals only with the situations where an admin is present in-game. SLs who can't be bothered to report squad members who don't follow rules are as much to blame as the squad member in question. COs who can't be bothered to deal with problem squads aren't doing anything to help raise the standard of play on our server, particularly when they have a direct frequency for admin support.

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Rick_the_new_guy

Here is the FITREP I gave Nerds after commanding a round:
Orginally posted 25-3-2007 on the PR Player Recommendation thread, post # 439: http://realitymod.com/forum/showthre...558#post320558

"BLKOPS Nerds_R_Cool, did one hell of a job as a SL (3) for the PLA at Ghost Train.

He recieved a bronze star. His squad dominated, with him getting most points out of the five.

I pinned the medal on him after the battle. I was the CO, Hehe.

He handled his squad well and used good communication. His arty strikes where right on the money.

His squad was the spear of the assaults, and made things happen.

He understood the fundamentals of the mod and punshied the enemy like no other."

___
Granted, this is not the issue at hand, but I wanted Nerds to feel welcomed to the community and not feel unwelcomed. Not that there is not enough Nerds here already. hehe.
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With that said there has always been a conflict between CO and SLs in BF2. As I have posted numerous times, vBF2 allowed a type of gameplay where real life SOPs did not need to take place for a team to do well and even dominate. After months and years of this set-up we are all of a sudden asked to set-up the realism. Tough level.

Add that with TG's rule of obeying a Chain of Command, with many in-game COs and SLs, not having atcual military trianing, or interest in roleplaying or reading the rules and SOP, this can be annoying sometimes.

After that weigh in the fact that it is a game, and people want to have fun it gets even more challenging.

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All hands, know this, in .6 the team without a CO will be blanked up permantly. COs WILL be the first slot to be filled to get the unit fully operational. After that the logistic squad (o.k. I am already getting off subject, sorry champ) will need to manifest.

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Myself will endavour to be part of the CO and logistacal team in .6.

In .6 all players will need to do more roleplaying to better enjoy the mod.
The threads in my sig will be updated once .6 is out and we have a feel for the new gameplay.

I am going to look over it here soon and to some extra posts.

P.S.
The unit is a team,
Vetern COs will make sure green SLs feel comfortable.
Vetern SLs will make sure green COs feel comfortable.
Vetern COs and Vetern SLs will make sure the SM kicks ass all day long.

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(PO3) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Member
(CPO) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Leader
(LCDR) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Commander

Squad Member pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...ad-leader.html
Squad Leader pledge to their team:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...r-platoon.html
Commander pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...d-leaders.html

Root

What's a FITREP?

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Lith1um

FitnessReport

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Ferris Bueller

Fitrep=fitness report=personal evaluation that everyone in the military gets from their CO on a regular basis. Your performance on fitreps largely determines your promotability.

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|TG-6th|Ferris Bueller

Rick_the_new_guy

I believe both CO and SLs should meet each other half way. The devs are turning up the wik on the need for teamwork in .6.

I recommend both positions to make compromises.

SL

When the count down timer is ticking away.

1. If you are the only one in a squad seconds before the match starts, it is best to join a squad that has multiple players in it. Sure, you may an excellent SL, but ironically you retard the team by essentially being a lone wolf. There are exceptions to this, i.e ( jet squad for example)

That brings me to number 2

2. Name your squad what it does. One of my biggest peeves in PR is seeing jacked-upped names or ironically names like VOip, teamwork, LearnTG. Again ironically this retards the team and the COs ability to function. Nothing sucks more than creating an APC, seeing no other APC squads on the squad roster, and then finding that the teamwork squad is using it. If the CO needs the APC he/she needs to now what squad it is located in. Also, who is to say the teamwork squad will ditch the APC and then the team not have one.


3. Do what your squad reads it does. This problem is not as bad with the team switch after games. Tell the CO during the countdown timer. I wish to be the assault squad, I have a good squad, I'll need some transport and a infantry support squad backing.

4. Create fire teams. The CO may need support somewhere, and a chopper is in route to pick up a fire-team, have them ready.

When the game starts.

5. Be patient. Accept/respect the CO role as knowing what is best for the team.

6. Use proper comms by stating your squad number.

7. Report to the CO significant info. Having your position over ran and your squad being hacked up most likely should be reported, not sure.
IMO, this is the biggest flaw in CO and SL relations (Intel reports). I mean would a squad member not report to their squad leader enemy movement while defending a location. I just do not understand why this is so hard for SLs to report up the chain of command enemy movement. The CO wants the enemy dead and out of your AO just as much as you do.

8. If defending or you have down time, check in with the CO (if it appears the CO is not busy). Doing so will better bridge the comm gap with the two positions.

9. Confirm CO orders that are questionable. Chances are they were mistaken. Or just flat out tell them no. "X here, that's a negatory, I just reported enemy movement form the west, we are nearly surrounded now, we can't push out of this, we need support.

If the CO further wished to do this, (chances are they will not) make it so, and realize that at least it is not RL. Also assume the CO knows more than you. There could be two gunships heading in to spray the flag, or some fast mover in route. Bottom line if the CO confirms the order, make it so. The CO role must be respected.

10. While initiative is good, requesting to do something that is different from your current orders is needed. The CO assumes your squad is there, when they are not, bad things can happen.
Granted, this was an issue in Conquest, but with AAS, the unit is always progressing or regressing so squads should stay busy and see plenty of action.
Again, request a fire-team to do something. It is respectful, and could blank up the COs plans if not done so. If every SL takes imitative, we are just playing vBF2, with a CO disconnecting after being frustrated and looking into purchasing Armed Assault.
AAS needs the team organized. Stick with your job. If your the assault squad or platoon, you know what to do next. Assault. If you are the defensive squad, and a forward flag has been secured and the flag you are at is no longer can be taken, move out to the flag that needs to be defended (granted the CO will give you new orders).
If everyone assaults, things will suck big time.

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CO.

1. Slow things down. You have around 90 mins to get the unit working well.

2. During the count down timer. Press the enter button to see how your squads are feeling out and what they are set-up to do (APC, assault). Request a specific squad to be made. Check out your SLs, who will be your go to guy? Who is green?. Who will obey "boring" orders no matter what?

3. Like a carpenter, measure your command twice, and give the command once. This will prevent the rapid orders given by commanders that have squads zig-zagging all over the place.

4. Organize your team. This is AAS, the unit needs to have some good organization. Again, go to the SL you know who are your team players and can get this done.

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.6 should play much more better than .5. We need to bridge the gap on the CO and SL position that was brought on by vBF2.

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(PO3) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Member
(CPO) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Leader
(LCDR) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Commander

Squad Member pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...ad-leader.html
Squad Leader pledge to their team:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...r-platoon.html
Commander pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...d-leaders.html

IOOB_583

* sniff - you mean my sizzlebutt squad shouldn't have that name ;(

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Don't let the bastards grind you down!

Sling_Blade

As a new supporting member (hey =P) I thought I would post my perspective on this.

I play this game for fun. I think most of us do. However, today I saw what, in my opinion, was a poor job of commanding. He seemed to be pissed that we were loosing, and was ordering people every which-way while warning, and in at least one case I saw, banning a person because he thought they weren't following orders. It isn't fun to get chewed out by a commander just because he is pissed his team is loosing.

You can't expect everyone to instantly appear where you want them. Most likely they are trying to follow orders, but some circumstance you aren't aware of is preventing them from doing it. Or maybe they just made a mistake. But making mistakes should be tolerated, we're human, not robots to be ordered about. If that is what you are looking for, go find yourself a good RTS game.

The commanders I love the most are the ones I feel I am working WITH to accomplish a goal. It shouldn't be an adversarial relationship, and when you are yelling at people and threating kick/bans, that's exactly what you are creating.

msdz

Ioob, I think everyone that has been in the game with you has already come to expect the weird and usually insane(sometimes a little perverted) squad names you can come up with. They definitely do not bother me and NEVER have as long as I have played with you. It is all done in good humor and no one should take offense to your squad names, especially if they know you. Glad I have gotten to know you, lol.

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DudeMan

kick bans on these passworded nights go over the top IMO, not everyone is a seasoned player of this game and im sure even fewer are accustomed to the PR mod.

on the original topic, as far as im concerned with this game you have to follow CO orders, i have tried commanding on some maps and people not following orders is not an isolated incident, its a recurring thing, you get 1 or 2 squads usually with TG members on them which follow orders, and most of the time win the game... then you get everyone else who accepts the order then goes off and does their own thing. its not how the game is supposed to be played, discuss with the commander the potential problems with their order fine, but if after you have he gives you a suicide order to storm the base on your own, do it... he may know something you dont, and he is in command. without that structure you have a server of lonewolfs in a squad...

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"

Root

The problem is that people are leaking the password. Others are signing up purely in order to be able to view the password. People who don't read the rules, or who refuse to follow them should be banned.

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ednos

People, like myself, who have proven their incompetence should be put on probation: exclusion from having said opportunity until properly trained. I have lost no fewer than three and no more than five games for my team as CO (I don't remember how many times I've done it, but I know I've never won).

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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~ Bertrand Russell
I have a tendency to key out three or four things and then let them battle for supremacy while I key, so there's a lot of backspacing as potential statements are slaughtered and eaten by the victors. ~ Magna Centipede

Root

Probation? Nonsense! Aside from the fact that it would be the mother of all administrative nightmares, how else are you going to learn? It's not like learning one of the weapons systems, which can be done on an empty server. As a CO, your squads *are* your weapons, and you can only learn live on stage.

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DudeMan

well i agree with that, but i have to say it is well advertised when all the pubs are on, go to the forums and search for it etc etc, so you cant blame people for wanting to do as the server message tells them because they are having a good time. i do understand some people deserve the boot god knows i have admined a battlefield 1942 server in the hieght of its popularity and it was like a full time job. and i will add that its not all the time, dont get me wrong... if you read my NEW BLOG.... (good one Apo) you will see last night i had some of the best games i have played anywhere last night.... for years... (thanks to |TG| Nex and his merry band of men...he he root hiding) it just seems like such a transformation from no Pwd then Pwd and kick kick kick.... if you are new to tg or new to PR and sign up for the first time to play PW nights its daunting to see... thats all... please dont think i am having a pop, by far the best PR server on the Internet is TG for the same reason that all those moons ago (Xlii.com) i joined... real teamwork, real game play...

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The Queen
"Those who perpetrate these brutal acts against innocent people should know that they will not change our way of life,"
Atrocities such as these simply reinforce our sense of community

TheFeniX
"Guns don't kill people: effeminate men in green tunics do"