aion2006

Wow I'm hearing a few diffrent opinion on whats a UCB

Well base on John CANavar reply that any base that is NOT under HQ order is a UCB. Which is why I was kick for attacking Outpost while Air-Drop is gray, Outpost is NOT a MAIN base like AIR MOBILE but I guess it wasn't on the HQ order list. So I guess regardless on the status of Airdrop flag status being in gray, Outpost still isn't on the HQ Order. And if it isn't on HQ order that mean its NOT in play and it is consider a UCB.

But still...I suppose those tank,hummer, and apc at the bottom of Outpost can't be destroy? Since outpost is consider a UCB?

Phew a bit confusing now.

John CANavar

Folks, there is a misunderstanding.

We are talking about the main base. Since Outpost on this map is the armor spawn point for US, I thought it was the last one in capture sequence for Chinese. Lets see. Is Outpost linked together with Air Mobile?

asch

This map appears to be unique and may be causing some confusion.

KyonganNi has a UCB for the US and also has another flag that spawns vehicles.

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Root

They are not in the same control group. IIRC, the load screen shows airdrop and outpost in the same group, although I rarely play the map and happy to take Mingmongs word that they are in fact separate. As the current rule stands, air mobile is the UCB (in it's own control group) and outpost is not.

Regardless though, if the preceding flag was grey and in the process of being captured there's no real reason why they shouldn't have been attacking outpost even if it were a main base. I would certainly have done the same if I felt I had sufficent numbers to take the flag, providing I also knew that the previous flag was being capped.

Reading the third paragraph of the OP, and setting aside whether the relevant command was issue, the posters team was effectively on fire condition red (they didn't fire until fired upon). Moving away from the flag (taking all the circumstances into account) could certainly have been unsound.

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John CANavar

I agree that if the preceding flag is grey, there is no problem attacking the next, be it a regular or main base.

Most of the maps places the assets to the last flag (=main base). Atypical asset distrubition on this particular map design seems to be the source of confusion and debate.

I suggest we keep things simple without making too many rules. In my opinion, "whichever the last base in attack sequence for enemy is your main base and attacking to this base without HQ attack orders OR turning the preceding flag grey is a rule violation" definition works well. Even if another base has all your armored assets.

Root

I couldn't agree more.

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Morganan

This map can cause lots of issues. I believe this is the map where the Us has an uncap on top of a hill with a few helo's, and the armor spawns at the "next flag" (in the AAS order) which is on the complete opposite side of the map from the US uncap. The silly part is Airdrop comes after outpost in the "recap order" for the Us if they loose them all.

It makes logical sense for the Chinese to go after them both once they cap the little town in the middle due to the nature of the spawns on the map. (I honestly don't remember which flag between airdrop and outpost is actually "next" in the AAS order, but the prevailing map features seem to dictate both should be gone after.)


I'm not a fan of uncappable bases other then on real assault maps. You know, where 1 side holds all the flags, and the other side only has it's uncap. The hill's of hamygong(sp?) is a perfect example of this, this map unfortunately isnt. All the uncap does for this map is drags it out and has the chance to cause issues of this type.

aion2006

So was my squad in violation of the rule or not? Since Outpost is clearly not a UCB and the previous flag was gray. Like Root said I felt I had the number to take the flag knowing the previous flag is being cap.

I wasn't attacking air-mobile nor did I attack the armor spawn. My squad was on the Outpost hill on conditioned Red (Not to fire unless fire upon) till I was kick for attacking UCB.

Morganan

I humbly suggest this exact line be added to the rules so there is no confusion in the future, as this is defintely proper and set's the bar so to speak about what types of flag-jumping is accepted and unacceptable.

John CANavar

You guys were the victim of an atypical map design and "grey area" situation. Feel sorry for kicking you but as I said before, from the reports, it sounded like a usual main base rule violation.

I am going to leave the rule update to Asch to be sure if he has anything else to add or not.

Thanks for discussion everyone.

mingmong

I don't really see an issue with interdiction - it isn't a case of the assets being destroyed while empty, or before the people get a chance to defend themselves.

gerardnm

Makes sense.... you cant have 2 uncaps.....thats silly.

I think you were very hard done by. USMC has all the aces on this map...airtransport, armour and position (2 bases that re very hard to cap given one has highground overlooking it and the other is a bunker complex. The UCB on this map is clear, it's marked with a US flag with a circle and a line through it.

If the USMC outpost base can t be attacked or ambushes set for armour the USMC shouldn't be allowed near estate either.

I think the definition above can be universally used nd is clear....there is one UCD and its the last map in the sequence if no UCD is marked.

w.WAREHOUSE

The cool thing about this server is that most of its players have seen the big picture. They have realized that in the best interest of securing good competitive games they have to make one simple sacrifice...and that is the rule regarding uncaps. This rule alone, seems to be the root of what separates TG from all of the other servers. It ensures longer game play, vehicle and commander asset integrity, and limits abusive players from exploiting spawn points. The trade-off for the tactical gamers, however, is ironically "tactics"...as the rule impeads on a team's ability to directly attack two steps ahead, or strategically take out an enemy's weaker flanks.

TG is torn between many types of players: Those with the Vanilla BF2 mindset; competitive players who want to win at all costs; players that want to play this mod as realistic as possible; and a majority of evolved gamers/friends who are doing their best to provide a fun & balanced server to interact on. There has to be a middle ground...and I think that most players with |TG|tags have adjusted their game play around the server rules, sacrificing a little bit of strategy and realism for the greater good. I would like to think that I have finally altered my play to fit into this category (although it took a few 1 week bans to get here), and hope that more players will also make adjustments... in the best interest of the server.
The competitive players want to plan ahead, and preemptively strike future targets hoping to catch the enemy undefended and increase their team's odds of victory, etc. The casual gamers (and the competitive ones that see the big picture), want to just play the game within the defined server rules having already come to the conclusion that this uncap rule is in fact necessary for good fun game play. Over-simplified...and very exagerated...but the idea of the rule seems to keep the action on the front lines and protect the integrity of the server.

I think we all have experienced servers that have no rules about uncaps. Teams can get capped out in minutes, commanders have no assets to use, and teams lose their vehicles...making the "style" of play very far from what TG has protected on their server. The sacrifice for this is strategy...as players must now constantly walk the fine line between planning ahead and breaking the uncap rule. I hope that more players will find that even though it isn't the most realistic way of stratgically "winning" a map, the rule is there for a good reason. The competitive gamers I mentioned earlier can still be strategic & competitive...but will have to pay more attention to timing, as that line between a grey flag and a capped one is really the foundation of what separates this fun server from Vanilla BF2.

I have played with you many times, and you are an awesome player. I think the map design put your squad in a difficult situation, and that your intent was in the best interest of winning and may not have warranted a kick without warning. But I'm not an admin, and I wasn't there...and I know these admins are getting 50 messages a day about players not playing by the rules as they interpret them. I hope that most admins will learn the names of the regulars on the server like yourself and begin to give them the benefit of the doubt or at least warn them before jumping on the !kick button too quickly. I think most of us are mature enough to listen to the admins and understand where they are coming from, or hear a clarification of a rule such as your situation.

For players new to the server, or players having a hard time obeying this rule...hopefully you can see the importance of the rule. I would recommend you alter your attacks to stay just outside of the next cap-able flag. Block reinforcements at choke points without breaking into the uncap base. As soon as your team behind you has taken the flag, have a strategy in action with your squad to move in quickly and still catch the enemy off guard. If you really have the itch to enter their base, make a squad named CQB or Spec Ops and play by the server rules only targeting their assets, only return fire in self defence, and leave the area once you accomplish your goals.

One simple rule has caused quite a bit of drama...but that one simple rule truly is the foundation upon what has made Tactical Gamers server such a great place to play PRM with both good games with good people.

Sabre_Tooth_Tigger

I think I was in this game though I dont remember the OP I do remember Jeepo was on the same side as me, USMC.

The outpost flag was occupied by a squad long before airdrop became grey. That was the problem and most likely the reason for the kick, there was no one at airdrop for a while as the middle bridge/flag was still being fought over.

The flags were attacked out of sequence, eventually airdrop was greyed and it may be you were kicked while at the outpost flag, even though it was a viable target (HQ) by that time.

On this map you have to zig zag across the river to capture the flags, the problem occured when one sl walked straight down the map and occupied outpost

Unfortunately there is no artillery for usmc on this map and the outpost flag is set upon a steep hill despite the actual spawn point being in the river valley. The squad was never entirely ejected and eventually all capturable flags were lost in this game.

Rough rules would be?:
If the flag cant be lowered then its not a viable target



Are dual spawn points for certain large flag areas a possibility prehaps? I'd like that also because a more random appearance by newly spawned players helps to stop the enemy camping that spot too easily, wether it be legitimate or not

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gerardnm

I think if we start saying that you can only attack flags next in play (excluding last flag which is UCB) we ll just cause trouble and confusion. Take AL Basrah for instance, I like being US and husting spawn cars....if i enter facility when its not in play to destroy one parked there does this mean i should be kicked.

The same for ghost train....the best way to play this is try cut off support to s bridge from trenches.....is this not a valid tactic any more.

The whole point of the game is that we think and apply tactics.......if "behind the line" ops are no longer legit then we re ruining an element of gameplay. I d argue on maps like jabal this tactic has to be used esp for USA.

On the map in question there's nothing i like more than having my squad mine the US brigde or destroy it completely the having my squad act as AT or H At against American assets when they enter the forest....classic ambush tactics.

Is this to be outlawed because we re near a base not in play?

I fully support an instant kick for anyone entering an UCD or last flag (an thus considered an UCB).

If we start creating grey areas....and this kick created a grey area it leads to confusion and a limitation of gameplay. keep it simple...the last flag is ALWAYS out of play or you re kicked. Any other flag can be entered etc