Morganan

you sir are incorrect.

It has nothing to do with balance between the planes or anything like that, it has to do with to many people stand around waiting for a plane instead of doing something useful to their team. Then you get into situations where on team A you have 3 solid pilots up there, and team B doesn't have 3 solid pilot's. Let me clue you in on a little tidbit in case you aren't aware... On big open maps, airpower makes the 1 sided rounds that empty out servers if one side has good air support and the other doesn't. I am certainly not going to walk/run 2000 meters to the next CP when I notice driving a vehicle just gets me bombed. I will find another server or just stop playing for that night. Avoiding the AAA is child's play to a good pilot. Then we can get into any rules that may or may not exist about hitting airfields. Airfield attacks aren't the same as attacks on armor at the UCB. Attacking enemy airfields has been around as long as airplanes have been used in warfare, it would be frankly stupid to legislate against taking out planes on the ground. (which i dont believe there are any rules against currently) Now add in cratered runways in this mod, and you have a recipe for disaster. Effective air power is once you gain air-superiority, you never let another enemy air vehicle off the ground.

In the end, maps with tons of air assets make for bad rounds in pub servers, but can make for great rounds in matches. Since there will never be a real competitive community for this mod with large team-sizes, the maps have to be designed with pub play in mind which leads to less air, less CP's in general and more ground orientated maps.

Zybon

Well, you also need to consider that it was also getting past midnight (US time) when it came to Kashan.

Belhade

Yes, I can agree with many of CptnMorgan's points on air assets. But it's been stated that in the final release of .6 variables like map round time and ticket counts (I believe) can be changed by the server, thus giving a round that won't necessarily drag on for four hours. That definitely would keep quite a few more players on for the (not-so) long run. Kashan with, say, 500 tickets each and a 90-minute timer should be a lot more enjoyable.

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Blitzer66

the server when it isnt pw night still stays fully populated well past midnight CST

submit7

Yup. I have played until 5a.m. EST when there were still about 30 to 40 players. The server population stays over 30 well after 3a.m. EST at least 4 or 5 nights out of the week. And, no, I don't have a life!

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Amdak

The reason that its such a problem is that nothing on the ground can possibly be effective for taking out jets. If the ground units had something to deal with the aircraft it would be less of an issue, when they got nothing to deal with aircraft the server does empty because they dont have anything worth trying.


Dont you think that if the 4 AA vehicles could actually hit the aircraft without having it dive at them to destroy them, just maybe, the aircraft would have to worry about that lock warning and fly in a way that would make spotting infantry and vehicles harder for the pilot?



I guess youre right, its like how ground superiority would mean that it should be just fine to sit in the enemy main base the entire round and kill anyone that spawns. Its their fault that they allowed you to gain superiority.




If the AA vehicles had AA missiles that actually worked, with their range in PR it would be very easy to create an area in the sky of 1-2 kilometers where any jet that attempts to pass low in that area gets shot down.

All you seem to focus about is countering air units with air units, when the only effective way to get rid of the enemy aircraft is with aircraft then yes rounds will be 1 sided. But when its also effective to use ground units against aircraft rounds will be less 1 sided when a team could afford using a single tank as bait for the SU25/A10 and then just spam it with missiles from the AA, resulting in 20 minutes of NOT having to worry about getting hit from the air.

Morganan

It's an engine limitation, there are only a few tweaks they can mess with..

1) make the AAA missiles faster
2) allow the missiles to track/lock at a farther range
3) take away/severely limit the jets ECM and do not allow flares to be reloaded.
4) make the jets slower

Back for Vanilla we attempted to tweak the AAA to be more effective, and we only got 1 end of the spectrum or the other. Either they were to accurate making air pointless, or they were as they currently are, worthless. You can't just wish for something and it happens, there are engine limitations and the AAA falls under one of them. The best remedy was to make the guns very powerful vs. jet's/helo's, but then they were way the hell to powerful vs. land targets.





Ground superiority means you control the ground, and thus the flags. Last time I checked, on Kashan once you hold all the flags except the enemy UCB, you attack that one do you not? Since you cannot cap CP's from the air, it is kind of pointless to try and compare the two, isn't it?




covered this already

Since it wont ever be effective to use ground to defend vs. jet's, that's why they stink and shouldn't be in a pubbie game like PR.

Betterdeadthanred

It needs DPVs and FAVs, and lots of them. Any questions?

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Amdak

You obviously never bothered playing PoE2...The AA in PoE2 is useful and so are the jets, its way more realistic than the AA in PR where the only way to destroy an A10/SU25 is with the PLA/MEC AA by shooting at it as its diving at you firing its guns.



Please note the 3 word combination of "the entire round", i wasnt referring to when the enemy main is a valid target, i was referring to situations where someone takes a tank and just sits outside one of the mains on kashan, resulting in the enemy main being camped by a tank from the very start of the round to the very end of the round.


Oh, ground AA isnt effective...I guess thats why realistically jets need to dodge ground based AA and release flares to avoid getting locked on by a missile. Because ground AA will never be effective.
Low flying jets are meant to be massacred by ground based AA, theres no point in making the AA useless against jets just because of all the pilots that cant understand the concept of flying beyond AA range until they have a specific target, will hate it.

Morganan

Sigh, the jets are forced into the AAA envolope via engine limitations. And yes, ground isn't effective to take out air, check out the statistics of say combat sorties flown in say Vietnam compared to aircraft shot down. Then check out Iraq, the number is actually quite low. Sure AAA is are a concern, I can't speak for anyone else but I always worry when someone is shooting at me, but in "reality" a single bullet can hit an important part of your airframe and cripple your bird, in this version of "reality" that isn't the case.

As for POE I don't really play version 2 so please answer me this, since everything respawns considerably quicker, is it possible for 1 aspect or the other the gain dominance in the air war without hangar-camping?

In any event I rarely play the map in question, I get to many Gazala nightmares when I see it in action so I typically leave the server when it loads. With the game mechanics as they are currently, any map with jets is going to be a disaster for one side or the other 9/10 rounds.

BigGaayAl

The planes don't seem imbalanced to me yet. The A10 and frogfoot only spawn now and then. The other jets have virtually no air-to-ground capability.

The rounds are a little too long indeed. But personally I dislike al Kuffrah more, but that is perhaps because people get their tanks killed too quickly.

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BigGaayAl

Totally incorrect. By teh current rule it isn't even allowed to hit the runway at all, unless you were fighting with a plane/chopper and follow it in when it goes repairing.

Taking out planes on the runway that just spawned = not allowed.

Plz correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think I am.

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Zybon

Right, but we were talking about PW night.

Yep, there should be at least 4 at each main base, and they should respawn quickly once destroyed. Part of the problem is being stranded and forced to walk a long way.

IMO every map should have 200 less tickets per side... as it is it seems like the maps are just a stalemate for the last 200 tickets, and everyone is getting bored.

Red

Just get rid of Jets, Infantry is what is fun for most people anyway. Jets would be good if we had 200 people on each side.

1 Jet per 100 vehicles is a good ratio as no PR map have that kind of ratio Jets should be out.

The fun for the many outways the fun for the few.

Sabre_Tooth_Tigger

The whole point of the map is every squad is localised except for the jets. Even the helicopters are pretty slow for a map this size.

If you dont like jets get the AA riflemans kit, it was much more effective last time I used it. Of course dont bother firing at flares.

I want them to set bleed for holding the 2 central flags. It'd make it more wake-like, allowing infantary to be the biggest influence on the map while still allowing massive air power to co exist without turning the game into an international airshow

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