Re: Helo roles in PR

**gijoe** · 05-11-2007, 06:19 PM

i think that the whole black hawk thing is pretty useless, because there is always an at kit somewhere...everywhere. I fly alot and its not fun because you'l be cruising in a BH and all of a sudden your on fire or your already on your way to hitting the ground. It's like my display picture lol.Pwned

**Root** · 05-11-2007, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by mingmong

I'm pretty sure using the LB as a HAT platform is against the rules.

It should be as it's an unrealistic tactic. The same goes for for LAT and RPG because of the blowback. I don't recall reading anything stating these things are actually against the rules though.

Originally Posted by Morganan

But yes, with the current state of the game, there is no real use for the transport helo's other then playing taxi-cab.

Do you think we (the more serious players) keep to using the black hawk and the MH6 in supporting roles, or do you think that we tend to often blur the line between my definitions of "assault" and "support"?

**Sam Hoy** · 05-11-2007, 09:15 PM

It should be as it's an unrealistic tactic. The same goes for for LAT and RPG because of the blowback.

Roots right, it definitively should be. Its an unrealistic exploit of the limitations of the engine to accurately model realistic forces and consequences in order to gain a significant advantage. Needless to say I do not permit this in my squads and cringe every time someone suggests it.

As far as the UH-60 being useless in an offensive role, thats just not the case. Of course the primary mission of the UH-60 and other heavy and medium transport helicopters is... transport, they can engage in limited attack missions. For one, you can fly with a squad leader on board with his officer kit and use the binoculars to call artillery in places where infantry simple is incapable. The second option is using the guns. What doesn't work is hovering low over the areas and just blasting whatever moves. Making orbits over the area is better. But the best option is to make low passes waiting to draw the forces into the open, identify them, locate threats, AA guns/missiles and RPG gunners, then try to make semicircular orbits around exposed portions of the infantry. As an air unit it is absolute suicide to stay in an area for a prolonged period of time without knowing whats there. I wish we could get OV-10s, O-2s, OH-6s or OH-58s even OA-10s in game, currently the observation role is seriously underutilized, and it is the most critical to close air support missions.

**Morganan** · 05-11-2007, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by Root

Do you think we (the more serious players) keep to using the black hawk and the MH6 in supporting roles, or do you think that we tend to often blur the line between my definitions of "assault" and "support"?

Difficult question to answer without personal perspective. I know I certainly blur the line between the actual definitions often, but mainly that comes from the perspective of the game and the play that is known to occur in said game.

I try and keep them in a support role (classic defintion) simply because when all the factors involved are working correctly, (good pilot, squads that understand what air transport is and how to organize a pickup and what to do when they are dropped off) the mobility a skilled transport squad can bring to the table in a strategical sense far outweighs any contributions the bird can bring tactically even if used under the best possible circumstances. I also think better terminology for helos would be "strike" and "support", assault leads one to believe a capability is present that is simply not there.

Helos are used for 2 basic types of missions in PR (I'll exclude the types that are not present in the game generally, you don't get a pilot kit to fly C-SAR mission's, but that doesn't mean you wont do them from time to time.

1) Strike: Behind enemy lines missions to remove important asset's/control important terrain. These are generally covert missions until the actual "attack" takes place. The attack could be from troops inserted either covertly or to a "hot zone" or from an attack helo moving to disperse/kill an armored group. "Hot zone" type of missions very rarely occur in pub servers because the level of organization and coordination required to make this type of attack anything but a ticket-waster is generally to high without time to practice the manuever's, but these types of strats are the backbone of most successful teams strategies in more organized settings. Back in BF:V my team had a strat that involved a planned crash-landing with the chinook to cap a flag. (Think of the assault spec forces did back in Nam on a POW camp, which was the inspiration for our plan) It took us 3 nights of practice at around 2 hours a night until we felt our level of execution of the plan made it worth doing.

2) simple troop movement's: A squad out of position might call for transport somewhere where they are in position.

As for the AH-1, would you classify it as an "assault" or "support" vehicle if it is used properly? Utilizing the TV system and infantry painting targets to me makes it a "support" unit even though it is blowing stuff up since your kills come as a result of other peoples contributions. (any good pilot/gunner combo will tell you when the infantry is doing their job right, killing enemy tanks is less challenging then taking candy from a baby. A less PC way to say that would be "clubbing baby seals") Just like escorting a squad into a "hot LZ" is an assault function by the strictest definitions even if you don't fire your guns once.

Sam: everything you described seems to me to be a supporting role. Calling in arty is something you use to support troops. And I am sorry but the guns are absolute garbage on the transport helo's in an effectiveness comparison to the grounds means of attacking you. They didn't used to be so crappy, and hopefully one day they will be effective again. You can't lay down supressive fire as the guns simply don't scare anyone. Covering fire? another waste. +1 rep to the first person who even knows what enfilading fire is without having to look it up, let alone can figure out how to use it effectively from a transport helo!

**mingmong** · 05-12-2007, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Root

It should be as it's an unrealistic tactic. The same goes for for LAT and RPG because of the blowback. I don't recall reading anything stating these things are actually against the rules though.

I vaguely remember something in the rules/primer about how things should only be used for their primary purpose...it was brought up in the LAT against infantry thread.

Although looking back over the rules/primer I can't find it, so maybe I made it up.

**FlumBom** · 05-12-2007, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by mingmong

I vaguely remember something in the rules/primer about how things should only be used for their primary purpose...it was brought up in the LAT against infantry thread.

Although looking back over the rules/primer I can't find it, so maybe I made it up.

Ok, maybe should find and take this up in the "LAT against infantry thread" but I'll aks here. isn't it ok to shoot ppl with a LAT?
even if you have it drawn/equipt?

**mingmong** · 05-12-2007, 01:46 PM

Sorry, I meant HAT. I don't really think the same argument applies to standard, one shot LAT.

**Morganan** · 05-12-2007, 03:43 PM

What does a guy have to do to keep a thread on topic around here?

Geez

**Root** · 05-12-2007, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by Morganan

What does a guy have to do to keep a thread on topic around here?

Geez

Exactly. FWIW, mingmong and FlumBom both missed the point that I was talking about using either AT whilst a passenger in a helo. That's completely different from using it on the ground.

Morganan thanks for all your input so far. Anyone else have some thoughts to offer?

**Sling_Blade** · 05-13-2007, 01:59 PM

My personal experience:

For the most part... transport helicopters are only good at transporting people. That is, after all, their role. However, to do this effectively either requires squad leaders to call for pickups, or for a commander to give the transport helos orders. To me it seems about 50/50 as to whether that happens.

The biggest reason why they are limited to this role is the HAT rocket. It kills in 1 hit, meaning any helicopter hovering in an exposed area is almost sure to be killed. The black hawk can be used as a gunship only on insurgent maps, where they will take several hits before going down, and the pilot has some hope of escape. However, the only map currently that has this combination is Al Basarah, and there is already so much air support on that map that the black hawks are often left unused.

The only other viable way is to use the HAT rocket, but this requires both an excellent pilot and an excellent HAT rocket user, which is a rare combination. It isn't exactly realistic either. The only other use is for blowing up bridges, artillery, etc. Or laying mines.

Also, you tend to do one or the other. If the map starts out and there isn't a commander, and squads aren't calling for pickups, the only semi-usefull thing you can do is to try to attack with the helicopter.

I have seen littlebird with 2 grenade launchers do some damage though. I imagine a full littlebird of greande launching guys would be very effective. It's tough to be accurate, but the volume of fire and large splash damage radius makes killing people a pretty sure bet.

**Sling_Blade** · 05-13-2007, 02:02 PM

Also... I understand why squads are usually reluctant to call for pickups. Squad leaders have no doubt been burned many times before by inexperienced pilots either crashing, or trying to land at a flag, rather than nearby where he can put down a rally point. From their point of view, they may get there slower in a humvee, or on foot, but are much more likely to get there and get a good RP put down.

**Root** · 05-13-2007, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Sling_Blade

Also, you tend to do one or the other. If the map starts out and there isn't a commander, and squads aren't calling for pickups, the only semi-usefull thing you can do is to try to attack with the helicopter.

So I'm clear on what you're saying.... where there's no call for pickups your experience on our server is that transport helos do get used in an offensive role sometimes?

**Sling_Blade** · 05-13-2007, 03:31 PM

Absolutely. It's just very easy to kill a chopper, and very difficult to kill someone while in a chopper. So... it doesn't do a ton of good, even if it's better than doing nothing. Even more frustrating is when you've started a transport squad, and it fills up with people who want to ride around in the chopper. When it comes time to pick people up it can be difficult to get rid of them :/

**mingmong** · 05-13-2007, 04:24 PM

Lock the squad, then.

**ednos** · 05-13-2007, 05:23 PM

That doesn't prevent people from getting in the helicopter!

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