Airstrikes Via Teamspeak Open Thread

[StrikeFear]

pokerface, you have a point - it could be said that the real disease is:
1. Lacking a CO
2. Lacking a CO who can use jets
3. Lacking SL<->SL comms

Are you suggesting that while we work for the cure (which could take a year), we do nothing about the symptoms?

But in any case, the fact is that this is not a treatment for a symptom. Because as I have clearly posted a few times, the behavior of a GOOD CO is to assign the jets to assist the squads just when they need them at just the right spot. At best, all he is doing is acting as a middleman for the SLs.
So even if we had no disease, this would still be preferred by a CO who is knowledgable about jet squads. He would say, "Help the SLs until I have specific orders for you." Without this means of communication, the same excellent CO would say, "I will relay the SLs requests for air strikes to you as I get them. This will be slower than it would if we could use TS, but it's the best we can do for now."

[Wulfyn]

Your 1st sentence: A jet squad (any squad, actually) can ignore the CO orders if they don't like them - with or without a new TS comms avenue. Why would you blame bad squad leading on an additional comm channel? That makes no sense.

I'm not blaming anything on an additional squad channel. But then why don't we have Squaddie - CO comms? After all a 'bad' SL can upset play by taking his whole squad off to do something of his chosing, ignoring the CO orders. We don't because it is impractical. But then I don't see why you are trying to overcome bad CO leading by providing a tool that cuts him out of the loop. As a SL I would not use this, I would request it in the same way as anything else. What is wrong with just asking the CO for air support?

Your 2nd sentence: If the jet squad and the CO are in agreement that the jets will support the squads directly, and a squad is not obeying the CO, and for some reason the CO doesn't have an admin kick the SL, all the CO has to do is tell the jets not to support that squad. The Jet SL can (and should, by SOP), inform the CO whenever he is about to comply with a strike request. You're making stuff up here. You're imagining that the Jet squad has cut all comms from the CO and is at the bidding of the SLs. That's crazy. And I've been very specific about explaining that that is not the case. Makes me think you're not reading my posts.

Again it doesn't add anything if everything is going via the CO. Where is the difference between:

SL1: CO, squad 1, I need air support
CO: Squad 2 provide air support for Squad 1

and

SL1: Air squad, Squad 1, I need air support
SL2: CO, squad 2, squad 1 requests air support
CO: Squad 2 you are clear for giving air support

your method is longer. The only way to shorten it is to cut the CO out.

Also I think something that you need to realise is that just because you have invented a tool for doing things your way does not mean it is going to be used in the way you want it to be used. This method can be abused, and as such it is even more hassle to try and prevent it from being abused.

Your 3rd sentence: I agree COs should be better educated. Are you suggesting that if we have, say, 4 things we can do to make gameplay better and more effective, we should do only 2 of them?

If 2 is sufficient, then yes. Heck I can maintain the pressure in my car tyre by buying a new tyre every time I go on a long journey. But surely it's simpler just to connect it up to an air pump and re-inflate it?

[SmokingTarpan]

So even if we had no disease, this would still be preferred by a CO who is knowledgable about jet squads. He would say, "Help the SLs until I have specific orders for you." Without this means of communication, the same excellent CO would say, "I will relay the SLs requests for air strikes to you as I get them. This will be slower than it would if we could use TS, but it's the best we can do for now."

All other points aside, there's still an issue with this. How do you know which squad needs the air support more? The air squad can't pull up a map and see where the most enemies are, or where they'd be most effective. What if there's an SL that continuously uses up air strikes for petty things and leaves another squad getting hammered by tons of armor? Do the squads sit down and start a debate in the middle of the battle to see who needs what more? No, the CO determines where the air assests go.

It's kind of like store work that involves multiple department heads and a manager that oversees them all. Yes, the department heads are perfectly capable of helping each other out and keeping things going. But the manager is the one that oversees everything and directs the business in the most prosperous manner.

[Obi]

@ StrikeFear

How long does it take (approximately), from the time you get an airstrike order to carrying out the airstrike and to rearming and being ready for another airstrike.

I know it depends on distances, enemies etc. but what is the average time? 1 minute? Less? More?

Example:

Squad A requests airstrike against a single vehicle. Jets squad accept request and begin bombing run.
Squad B requests airstrike on armoured column. They need it more than squad A. How long would squad B have to wait if the first airstrike wasn't aborted? If the time they have to wait is round about the 1 or 2 minute mark then i think that is acceptable.



Edited : Removed "from the CO" from first sentance

[Pokerface]

pokerface, you have a point - it could be said that the real disease is:
1. Lacking a CO
2. Lacking a CO who can use jets
3. Lacking SL<->SL comms

Are you suggesting that while we work for the cure (which could take a year), we do nothing about the symptoms?

If this were a slap-patch solution, I MIGHT be for it. But as the other thread shows, it isn't; there's a litany of technical issues, not to mention the possible abuse scenarios. A year's worth of this kind of medicine won't help the underlying issue get solved anytime soon; it will promote cutting the CO out of the communication loop. Eventually SLs will be talking to air support directly all the time, and the CO will go about his merry business of doing everything else the map would have him do.

But in any case, the fact is that this is not a treatment for a symptom. Because as I have clearly posted a few times, the behavior of a GOOD CO is to assign the jets to assist the squads just when they need them at just the right spot. At best, all he is doing is acting as a middleman for the SLs.

Yes, you've posted it clearly, but that still doesn't make it correct. The CO is not "at best a middleman"; the CO is the glue that holds the map's forces together. There's a very good reason that everything goes through the CO, and circumventing CO oversight (even with the CO's blessing!) stands to hurt more than harm a team's overall chances as resources get misappropriated.

So even if we had no disease, this would still be preferred by a CO who is knowledgable about jet squads. He would say, "Help the SLs until I have specific orders for you." Without this means of communication, the same excellent CO would say, "I will relay the SLs requests for air strikes to you as I get them. This will be slower than it would if we could use TS, but it's the best we can do for now."

Or the excellent CO could be ordering the air support around the map (without SL requests), or the air support (if in a helo) could land and defend a flag or something. There's no shortage of stuff to blow up in this game, and SLs have a "requesting new orders" button if they suddenly find their immediate area lacking in said blow-up-able stuff.

[StrikeFear]

Wulfyn and SmokingTarpan:

This has been an excellent discussion and exchange. I believe we have each throughly and completely expressed our thoughts on the matter and our speculations on what will and won't work.
At this point, because there are several uncertainties, I don't think it's possible for any of us to be absolutely sure, however. The only way to find out is to try it.

I intend to decide on a TS solution, post about it so players can participate if they choose, and see how it goes.
I expect that it won't be perfectly smooth at first. That's fine. But the bottom line is that, while you and I disagree about what will happen, we DON'T disagree about what we WANT. That is, if you're right, and this idea doesn't work, and it causes the problems you predict, I'll drop it like a bad habit. I'm not married to it.
But we should try it, so I will.

@ Ob1one
As you've guessed, that's a tricky question to answer. I've never timed any gameplay, so I'll have to estimate.
I'll describe a couple of different scenarios so you get a picture.

Scenarios:
Jets are armed, within 1/2 map distance, and have Countermeasures (CM) armed:
<10 seconds

Jets are armed, full map distance away, have CM:
<15 seconds

Jets are not armed, but not under Fighter attack:
30 seconds

Jets are not armed, but under Fighter attack:
...airstrike not available at any definite time...
If we're lucky and can break off quickly, could be 30sec - 1min.

If we're not lucky, the pilot is good, then we're in a fight to maintain presence in the air and deny the enemy close air support. Don't call us, we'll call you.

So ... from the moment your "Squad B" requests an airstrike (we're already in route to A), we need to complete that run and rearm.
Say, 10 seconds to comlete the run, 30 seconds (scenario 3) to rearm and hit target. Squad B ETA is 40 seconds.

Does that answer your question?

[SmokingTarpan]

Yes, I think we all agree that we want better communication and higher efficiency. Frankly, this whole discussion would be moot if we had an SL comm channel in the game (though there would still be problems with it). Who knows, maybe one of the eleventy-billion things that they're fixing with this upcoming patch will add that in.

[StrikeFear]

Who knows, maybe one of the eleventy-billion things that they're fixing with this upcoming patch will add that in.

Don't EVEN try to get my hopes up. Sheesh.

[Ol'Smoke]

Strikefear I can totally see your point. But let me give you a few facts:

I have never as a CO got a request for an airstrike from ANY squad (and there are good ones around here).

I have as a CO given an order to an airsquad once (few days ago) and totally got a kick out of it, I'm sure gonna do that more often. It's just that I never thought of it before, after all I'm playing this games only for a few weeks.

I have never as a CO heard a airstrike squad complain to me about a lack of orders (!) (when I wasn't giving them any).

The point I'm trying to make is give it some time. We got lots of mature players around here willing to learn how to play this game. In time CO's are going to learn how to use their planes and everybody's going to benefit from it: the CO's, the groundtroops suddenly finding they gained an extra weapon (instead of an annoyence), and the pilots.