Hey, you guys hear about that cool new TG Scrim League?

ABRA · 12-06-2005, 05:34 AM

There is going to be an internal TG scrim league soon because WE are going to make it you maggots. The admins have given us the green light to do so.

There's been a lot of chatter about it and my two threads on the topic are here and here.

The format is going to consist of several smaller squads that come together to form the larger opposing teams for the matches. Different squads will be selected to join each team for each match so it won't always be the same match-up. Each squad will have a win/loss record that is tracked based on if their team won or lost the match.

Example:

Say there are 6 squads signed up for the league: Squad A, B, C, D, E, F. The schedule would look like this except more random:

Match........USMC Squads...........OPFOR Squads
...1...............A, B, C.........vs...........D, E, F
...2...............A, B, D.........vs...........C, E, F
...3...............A, B, E.........vs...........D, C, F
...4...............A, B, F.........vs...........D, E, C
...5...............A, C, D.........vs...........D, B, F
...6...............A, C, E.........vs...........B, D, F
..etc................etc.............vs........... ...etc....

Say USMC won each match then the standing after 6 matches would look like this:

Squad............Win/Loss Record
...A.......................6-0.............
...B.......................4-2.............
...C.......................3-3.............
...D.......................2-4.............
...E.......................2-4.............
...F.......................1-5.............

If you want to play in this league post your team captain, squad name, and player roster here in this thread. Roster sizes are not yet set, more on that below. Registration closes soon so hurry.

Once we have the rosters we will decide what the best size is and set a cap on the rosters. Then it will be up to each team captain to resubmit a roster under that cap. Some team captains will need to cut players, some will need more players, some players will need to start a whole new squad and submit that roster. That's the business of the squads and their captains and players.

If you are in an existing squad, start a league sign-up thread in your forum. Select a squad representative to act as team captain to coordinate with the league. Submit a roster with whoever is signed up from your squad under your squad's name. It is OK if the 7th roster has 20 people and the 3.14th roster has 2. We'll figure it out.

If you are not in a squad, find your friends who aren't in squads either and submit a roster. Start a thread to fill out your roster. You don't need to be a full-fledged TG squad to submit a roster. Or join the TG Irregulars found in the thread docked at the top of this forum.

If you are :gasp: not even a supporting member(SM), then let me first remind you that cool TG stuff like this is why you should be a SM. This is where the money goes without which you'd be dolphin jumping, dodging your teammates' jeeps, while some 10 yr. old thug sings 50 cent in your ear over voice com in the feral vastness of public server land. Nevertheless all we're talking about is posting a roster in this thread. So yes, by all means join. But the answer really is I don't know yet if non-SMs will be able to do this in the end.

This is not the time or place to discuss map choices, match times, or servers. This is the time and place for getting this done one step at a time. And right now that means rosters so show your interest and support by finding or being a team captain and getting on a roster posted in this thread.

I'd rather we burn those Churches when we come to 'em, and not get ahead of ourselves with anxiety over match times and the like. Those threads I linked to earlier can do that if you insist or you can start a new one.

Let me just say that there is no commitment in doing this, no contract or death pact. If you have the slightest inkling of wanting to participate in what you fantasize regularly scheduled internal TG scrims would be all about then help make this league that fantasy and get on a roster. If you turn out not to be interested you can back out long before your squad needs to finalize their roster.

Let's get this party started people. It's looking like a junior high dance in here with all the boys standing on one side staring at SugarNCamo and SassyOne on the other or something. Awkward talk about team stacking, the degradation of play on Server #1, and the big meanie teams using non-TG tactics against us in scrims and if we should still play them.

Well this league is the after party to all that nonsense. TG regulars who know and enjoy the TG style playing fairly deliberate and organized scrims that coincide with TG values. Land of milk and honey here ladies. We just have got to POST A FREAKIN ROSTER.

munchkin · 12-06-2005, 06:13 AM

+rep for the hilarity
+rep for the disturbing analogies
+rep for the concept
+rep for the execution
+rep if you kill Deveran if he doesn't sign up the leeth for this
If he does, I'll probably be in that squad. If he doesn't, then I'd like to fill in a slot in another team if needed.

John CANavar · 12-06-2005, 12:29 PM

Hey ABRA,

As you may remember, this was the answer I posted in one of your topics:

Quote:

And lets have the focus on "training and practice" instead of "competition" so that we share, test, discuss and improve standard procedures.

1stMIP will join these events.

And I am still wondering why we are ALWAYS focusing on competition? Is competition the only thing that can motivate all these people? The points on their score board and the number of times they won a game?

Can we say there are basically two types of players here:

1) Competitive
2) Non-competitive

We have scrims played with other communities which are completely based on competition. So type 1 players should be fairly happy. What about type 2?

Why just for one time cant we have something which is done for the sake of quality gameplay in which teams focus on their cohesion and tactics.

A game in which we will not worry about rushing to cap a flag but take it easy, organize, plan and coordinate actions to simulate an epic battle.

A game for which we have no ATC figures, position assignments, detailed plans.

If all of our organized activities will be based on competition, the gameplay here will never improve in the way most of us would like to see.

Quality gameplay, as some of us call it, is the opposite of competitive gameplay. It requires slower pace and the reward is not your score.

If our focus will be only on competition then procedures and tactics, the things we love to see and use, will be pushed aside all the time. BF2 is a simple game. Capture the flag. By just running and gunning as a group of people you can be number #1 clan in the whole world. You dont need more than fast reflexes and daily practice to excel your killing skills. Is this what we really want?

I highly appreciate your efforts for organizing an event like this which is going to bring us all together. But please consider to get feedback from community on the format.

I would like to suggest the following format for organized weekly TG games:

- No score keeping or trophy collection
- Focus on tactical elements, squad procedures, inter-squad communication, coordination, training, practice and FUN
- No map selection. Randomly playing maps. No ATC sessions, CP assignments, etc. Playing the game and adapting to situations using squad procedures.
- Using tactical mod to ensure quality gameplay

Trooper · 12-06-2005, 12:36 PM

hey munch step and be the team leader while he is gone.....

the 2nd can bring around 15...or so

John CANavar · 12-06-2005, 12:41 PM

Forgot to mention. You may ask "Then what is going to be the difference between this event and a public game on TG server 1 if we dont make it like a scrim with a fixed map and plans?"

Well answer is the team organization. You will have a chance to work on a tactic/procedure with your teammates or with like-minded players.

How many times you could easily bring together 6 team members on the same side?

How many times you could join the squad of very like-minded players?

It is always a chance event if we dont have an organization. The focus is on bringing together people who enjoy playing the game exactly the same way the other one does and give them a chance to spend quality time together...

And nothing is top secret here. You can get an idea about all in-house squads and players by following the forums. It is up to you to find who is a compatible gamer with you...

schemer · 12-06-2005, 12:55 PM

Hey John,

I very much respect you opinion, but I would counter that there are many of us that consider quality gameplay to be quality competitive gameplay - and its the competition that drives us (especially us type a folks) to develop tactics and strategies which foster teamplay and cohesion - because this is what leads to success on the battlefield (assuming certain rules are in place to prevent exploitation as on some pubs).

I don't think its a vice that some thrive on competition. In my opinion, procedures and tactics should be designed to fit the competition, and are the means to the end (beating the opponent in fair compeition).

As I said though, I totally respect what you are saying. Its sort of the Civil War re-enactment side of gaming. I'm not sure this would motivate me personally, but I certainly understand how others live for this.

John CANavar · 12-06-2005, 01:18 PM

Hey schemer,

And I very much respect your opinion. Thanks for putting your argument in an elegant way

Please dont get me wrong. "Competition is opposite of quality" is just a personal statement.

Let me give a solid example to describe my state of mind.

You guys know the simulation fan groups who practice flying in formations, etc. I am talking about the feeling of accomplishing something like that which requires thinking, planning and practice together. A high level of disciplined and coordinated action by a team. That very feeling is enough satisfaction for me.

I want to do similar things in battlefield 2. If I play competitive (I can If I want) all procedures should be judged by a single parameter: success. Is this procedure going to bring us points?

I want to free my mind from that. I want to enjoy the game and work on tactics with my friends just to simulate military concepts in game. It is simply a military role playing for me.

I compete in my career, I compete in sports but I dont want to compete in gaming

EDIT:

In fact I am not against competition. It is a part of the game. I am against "pure competition" as if the game is played just to win ! All the games I played so far involved competition and I like it. But when the sole purpose is competition, I enjoy it much less...

Deveran · 12-06-2005, 04:15 PM

I'm very much here, Trooper.

I'll see how the Leeth will do, but you're more then likely be seeing the name in the list of sqauds. Do you have an estimate on when you think this will take off? End of holiday season? During? Sorry if it was said elsewhere, I'm lazy.

Trooper · 12-06-2005, 06:02 PM

ah bummer......well i hope you guys are going good and will be in this

Acid · 12-06-2005, 07:04 PM

The 4th will try to get together a few guys, mabey a full squad, depending on what day each one is. We will be attending.

ABRA · 12-06-2005, 11:27 PM

Thanks to all the teams that have shown interest, once your players stop trickling in go ahead and post that roster.

Deveran-I'd encourage you to submit a 1337th roster even if it seems on the small side. It will be one more smaller roster that we will factor in when setting the roster size. If we get enough small rosters for instance the end roster size will be lower and you'll have to do less filling out.

John- I think we see eye to eye in this in most respects and your concern is largely premature. At this stage we haven't finalized any format beyond the fact that we will probably have multiple squads that come together to for big teams for matches. My person reasoning for starting this league was two-fold. One the external scrims were annoyingly competitive and not in the tactical TG style that you are talking about and the internal TG scrim league would have such a style. Two having the scrims more often in a league format would give squads a chance to play together so often that their tactics would become second-nature rather than having to be planned meticulously in advance for each scrim in ATC like it is currently. So the league itself is here to bridge the gap between what we see on Server #1 and the realistic and tactical gameplay vision that TG was established for. I think we share a common vision and I very much hope 1st-MIP can make it as I'm sure the game style you are describing would move the league closer to that vision.

I forgot to mention something though. All the people interested in participating in the concurrently running CO division of this league should sign up here as COs as well. You can play as both player and CO but obviously when your match is up to CO you won't be counted in one of your squad's slots. You might even be commanding the opposite team.

As for when it's going to be starting hopefully tomorrow. Realistically much later than that. Preseason(re:BETA) late-December, opening day early January at the earliest. But I'd like to be able to close preseason registration early next week at the latest and finalize the roster size and rosters mid week and finish the format CIVILIZED DISCUSSION early the following week like the 20th.

But that's just my estimate for how long it'll take the community to get its **** together. If you guys can really pull together and get those rosters finalized soon, and conduct the format discussion economically and efficiently(re: team captains get their roster's wishes down and represent them in a discussion or two in Teamspeak rather than in a 10 page thread that yields no definitive answers), then we hopefully can beat those deadlines by a good margin. But yeah, yeah I know, Christ on a cross...

StrikeFear · 12-07-2005, 12:46 PM

The 531st can represent. We have 6 pilots, and as you know, most belong to other squads as well.
In what capacity they play largely depends on the other rosters, which largely depend on the final dates.
However, you can probably expect 2-4 pilots from the Grey Ghosts to be manning cockpits, if the roster demands it.

John CANavar · 12-07-2005, 01:35 PM

ABRA,

Looks like I misunderstood the concept and reacted very fast to the words Scrim and League

Thank you for sharing your reasoning. We are on the same page and I would be very surprised if we werent (knowing you and Munch). We are joining the activity as 1st MIP.

See you all tactically-minded players there...

ABRA · 12-09-2005, 04:17 AM

OK, it'd be great if the squads could get their rosters in next Monday. Looks like the admins are forming a squad of their own too so that should be fun. Maybe we'll need new refs :P

There's been some talk too about the role and organization of pilots in this league especially with the VMFA boys flying around. Firstly let me say that the squad rotating and congealing into a team thing doesn't mean a squad has to literally fight in the same single squad in game. That's for them and their CO to decide. Most likely it'll shakeout that way since they'll be more on the same page with each other tactically than with members of other squads. So a squad's hotshot pilots can go off to join the air squads if they want.

Second this presents the issue of the number of pilots exceeding the number of pilot-able aircraft on a team(or conversely the squad rotation yielding a team that is unable to fill its aircraft, let alone fill them competitively). The solution would be to put the pilots in a separate division like COs. This presents a number of thorny issues such as pilot rotation putting them on the opposite team as their squad's rotation. But if pilots are concerned about air time or teams are concerned about a rotation making them non-competitive in the air, this division is a serviceable solution that we can make work.

Lastly I'm opening a thread inviting open registration of free agents who do not have a roster. Admins I think I made a mistake getting this thread docked as I think many people somehow seem unable to see docked threads. So if you could leave this one floating I'll keep it bumped. Sorry if two threads on this topic is considered spam. Feel free to delete it and I'll re-post in here.

munchkin · 12-09-2005, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ABRA

Second this presents the issue of the number of pilots exceeding the number of pilot-able aircraft on a team(or conversely the squad rotation yielding a team that is unable to fill its aircraft, let alone fill them competitively). The solution would be to put the pilots in a separate division like COs. This presents a number of thorny issues such as pilot rotation putting them on the opposite team as their squad's rotation. But if pilots are concerned about air time or teams are concerned about a rotation making them non-competitive in the air, this division is a serviceable solution that we can make work.

Let me speak for all the flyboys out there when I say:
WE WANT THIS!
Having a 1v1 and 2v2 dogfighting league would really be damn interesting, for both jet jockeys and the helo pilots. It'd be great to showcase some air-to-air skill rather than demonstrate one's ability to smash vehicles and infantry.