John CANavar

Because I dont see anything neat or cool in the type of stats I am talking about. I have taken a position and trying to support it with my experience. If this becomes a heated argument, I will stay out and hope the best for TG community.

KillerTarget

Also how would other non-tg players know about the ranking system if we don't promote and talk about it on the server? Or just make it available to registered users of the forums who have the PID of the account they use to play on the server. That way we don't get into a lot of stat whores who just play to get the best stats and then you could also encourage better team playing by allowing the users in the in house clans and those who participate in the tournement to see the full stats that are collected and have a restricted stat list for those who just are registered on the forums and play on the server. Then if you wanted to make it even harder for people who just show up, make it so they have to post a certain amount of times that isn't just spam (spam may occur, but you then ban the account or just warn them once) before they are even allowed to see their stats.

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-BB|KillerTarget

asch

Some stats aren't as useful as others... and some are even detrimental to the team mentality. But there are some stats which are very helpful for the individual player to improve his play. Some of these stats would be weapon proficiency, number of times you play a role, K/D ratio for a particular weapon, etc. This helps the individual guage where he needs to increase his level of play.

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Little asch



Don't be a Help Vampire!

John CANavar

Please consider the following points gentlemen:

When I order a fire team to suppress enemy with heavy fire, 99.9% of their shots will hit nothing and their weapon accuracy will be 0.1%. What good will it make for this player to learn that from his/her stats?

What if that player tries to improve accuracy and other stats? He/She will hesitate to follow leader orders next time. Where will team play, discipline, obedience, duty, etc will go if we think about these numbers during the play.

Another example. SL orders a spec ops soldier to set C4s at flag and fall back to a safe spot and wait. Well, this guy knows that his stats with SpecOps is not good. Will he request "Sir, I seem to be very bad with this Spec Ops weapon, can I move to frontline and get some headshots?"

All I am trying to say is, in my opinion, stats like K/D, accuracy, etc applies to games like Quake and Half Life deathmatch. Not to a mission and objective-based, team game like BF2.

I dont see any harm in stats like number of times you play a role, on a map, etc though.

Trooper

John you make some great points and all of us respect your opinion. both situations are good examples neither of which i thought of.

If we implinent this for SMs only i dont see the second happening. I dont see a TG SM asking to move to the front so they could pad their stats. The K/D ratio is already displayed anyway at the end of each round, when the map stats are displayed.

I know alot of us would play ranked server if it was run and administrated by our crew. I for one would love to play ranked servers but i cant see myself joining the EA anarchy just to get awards and such. Haveing this would also im sure make the ribbion awards alot easier for admins to award cuase they could back them up with stats.

Again we all have to trust the GO and admin crew, they arent going to do anything that would hurt us as players or members.

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that sounds like a good idea trooper.
-Vulcan

Snail88

I understand where both are coming from, but let me tell you this - As long as im support or medic, youll usually find me in the top 3 for our team AND i always follow orders as best i can. Im not trying to toot my own horn (ok maybe a lil lol) but i happen to be damn good with those kits (as well as some others)

I dont know about others, but if there were a stat system, i really wouldnt care about it. Itd be neat sure, it would help ABRA and his league definately, and id check it for poop and giggles every now and them, but you know what, id probably have the worst accuracy in the world (due to my spraying of my support weapon) but i wouldnt care.

Listen to this - If i really want ranks and medals, i go to pubbies and endure the chaos that is. Hence, i dont play there much. I play at TG because for the gameplay, plain and simple. Are you really going to tell me that a few useful stats into helping out our prized league REALLY effect the way our SUPPORTING MEMBERS play? I highly doubt it. When i play i listen to my SL, i do the best i can, whatever kit he wants me as (so i may be first, i may be last when its all said and done), and i play with TEAM first as always.

Think about it - the battlefield is WAY too chaotic to be thinking about stats lol. Your main and immediate concern will be survival and winning, at any means neccesary.

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icky

Don't sweat it, John. I am 100% on your page on the issue of stats.

We can talk all we want here about how "we" don't play that way here at TG, but we all know very well that there are players here who consider their ranking at the end of the map to be very important. They consider it so important that they will even split off from their squad in an attempt to get more kills. Clearly, we don't want to add any extra rewards for this kind of behaviour.

Any stats collection and display we do will be done with careful consideration.

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Peace through fear... since 1947!

DrunkenSoul

unless you can include stats which tell you how you have performed at a squad mate (how often you listened to CO orders) I dont think that this should be done. We are promoting teamplay. I mean, is someone (a reg) going to stop playing on TG just cause we dont have stats? No. But, is someone going to stop playing on TG because we have stats? Yes. I think stats are useful as you know where you rank individually amoungst players, but peoples mindset will change if we use stats and others will eventually get fed up.

For instance if Person A notices he needs 5 more sniper kills to "be the best sniper on TG" and he is on a squad that is heavily attacked by armor, what would he do?..continue sniping to be the best sniper (what would be done if stats were used) or act as a teamplayer and switch to AT.

Honestly, how many people on TG dont know what weapons the are good at and what they need improvement with. Its not that hard to figure out that for myself to know that I am not a great sniper, while Jusb or Mantis know they are. This will just turn into..lets see who can be the best with what weapon. While the teamwork will still be there, it will be a notch below what it is right now.

The only I see it really not effecting teamplay is that if you only see your own stats and not compare it to other players

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|TG-1stMIP|DrunknSoul
1st Mechanized Infantry Platoon (C-Team)


[medic][conduct][combat][defense]
[tog-c1][ma-c1][tpf-c1][ma-c2]

kornkobcom

Really what it boils down to is that if the stats displayed are chosen wisely, they could be of some use without causing harm.

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Kornkob

I want to move to Theory. Everything works in Theory.

Strag

Exactly. I know what kits and weapons I use, and my effectiveness with them concerns me only in regard to supporting my squad. For example, if I play AT, I don't care how many kills I get with my AT rockets. What I DO care about is whether I'm able to use my AT rockets to disable any targets indicated by my Squad Leader. My goal is to support my squad by playing the AT kit; if I don't do a good job, I and my squad will know it. I don't need stats to tell me this.

Telorn

I think you're looking at this with a one track mind - that it's evil. Try and think of how K/D per weapon stats can help a team. I don't know about you, but I know I, and I believe most TG'ers, would never say that to a squad leader if they are Spec Op.

Taking your same example, most of us aren't going to care to increase our stats as a Spec Op. Instead, we're going to realize that we kinda suck as a Spec Op and we play much better as an Assault. So, instead this squad member would tell his SL what class he can best play as, when he first joins, and let the squad leader decide how he wants to use them. If someone else is better as a Spec op, then they should be the Spec Op! Your best squad is one where each individual plays a kit they are better at. Even if this makes you short of a support or engineer because no one is good at them...because they know they can kill 2 to 3 times better as an Assault, how do they really benefit the squad more? I think this is excellent knowledge for the SL to know.

But as I said, if I say I'm best as Assault and Medic, the decision is still to my SL. But at least the SL has more information to make the best decision.

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Telorn

asch

Over time I would expect to know that on average I throw supressive fire down with the assault weapon, medic weapon, support weapon, spec ops weapon... and that I do this on a regular enough basis that I begin to compare apples to apples. You can begin to understand your own accuracy.... understand that you'll always plateau at a certain %.

Now you're twisting up the use of stats. I'm not trying to increase my stats, I'm trying to increase my effectiveness. You can make the stats only available to the individual player so they have no comparison with other players and hence don't feel the need to just increase a particulat stat. The stats are useful pieces of information for the individual.

Again, you're talking about a player who has a particular stat they wish to increase so that it's "Better" than someone else. These stats should be personal so they understand where they need to practice and become more effective.


What makes "statistics" have a negative connotaion is when you try to compare them to other players. That makes them become a "rank". Ranks aren't what we're looking for.

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Little asch



Don't be a Help Vampire!

John CANavar

Dear Asch,

This is the center of discussion. From the very beginning, I am trying to prove that being effective has nothing to do with numbers you can get from stats.

Lets visit some recent posts:

Drunk:
Strag
There is NO STAT which can tell you how well you did for your squad. Take an AT guy. Lets say he is in your squad. The guy has terrific talent with SRAW and can hit a fly in mid air. A vodnik full of enemy soldiers heading to your flag, you are ordering AT to engage immediately but he is late and enemy deploys/captures flag. He had an excellent record with SRAW but failed this very important assignment.

He needs to be more effective and he needs practice but stats dont tell it. How it will be reflected in his stat record? It WILL NOT ! He will take lots of other vodniks in other times to put multiple +4 in his Kill number.

Now take another AT player. Lets say she has no impressive stats with SRAW and nowhere near the skill level of first guy. In a similar situation, you give the same order to her and she nails down that vodnik, defends the flag.

She is effective and doesnt need practice but stats tell a different story. How it will be reflected there? It WILL NOT ! She will miss lots of other vodniks and will have no impressive accuracy or K/D ratios like the first guy.

STATS dont tell you if you were at the right place, at the right time and did the right thing following your orders. But just like Drunk and Strag mentioned, you and your teammates can tell it.

Also, there is NO STAT which can tell how successful a squad was in doing what they were ordered. A squad may end up with a score of 1000 but may have still failed most of the missions assigned to it.

In my opinion, TG doesnt need players with K/D of 100:1. TG doesnt need excellent assault. sniper, medic, engineer, support, spec ops, AT players. TG needs excellent team players who have condifence in their team skills before their kill skills. If we all want this, we need to make it VERY clear, be VERY firm and idealist. We should not only say it on forums or in-game but also take actions to enforce and promote it. I think stats dont fit well under this intention.

SMs or non-SM, I say lets promote concepts like team spirit, companionship, duty, honor, sacrifice, objective, mission, tactical and smart play over personal skill. Numbers cannot help us in this.

Personal skill will not give us quality game. I simply cannot see how it will help our community. On the other hand, there is a risk, small or big, that it will be harmful because accept it or not, some gamers here will use it to further focus on the kill.

Why we are taking that risk? As Drunk mentioned, no one will leave TG if we have no stats, in fact having no stats is a great filter stopping selfish players from getting in here, but if we have stats and things start to go wrong, we might have a hard time correcting it and some may leave the TG then. It just doesnt add up...

I have utmost confidence in you and other TG admins. You are the guys who build up this community. You should not take my comments as lack of confidence in your abilities or intentions. I tried to analyze the question from a different angle, played the devil's advocate and decision is upto you.

I will support whatever you decide and even if things go wrong, I will be there to help community. Unless anyone else wishes to continue, I guess I am pretty much done putting arguments on this issue.

kornkobcom

Now there's a reasonable tack to take.

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Kornkob

I want to move to Theory. Everything works in Theory.

Thierry

There are times when I play hours on TG and I get very high scores, I would like to see those on my stats but it isn't really all that important. I miss my DAO-12 when I go AT a lot more then some stats

This is true, but if I had to choose between someone who has played over 100 hours with the AT then someone who has played 1 hour, then I have to chose the 100 hours kit as I indeed do not know how good either of the players are, but I have to make a choice that will benefit my squad and my team the most and then someone with 100 hours might help my squad better then someone with 1 hour.

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BF2 Name: Thez(NL)
BF2142 Names:
Thierry(NL) (Sniper)
Dikkiedik(NL) (Assault)
Kittekat(NL) (Engineer)
Dimi(NL) (Support)