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Discussion: Battlefield 2 / Battlefield 2 - Ranked Vanilla - Ideology in Online War Games - Originally Posted by gunjunkie Also, I'm not sure I can take anyone who cites RATM
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    E-Male's Avatar

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    Re: Ideology in Online War Games

    Quote Originally Posted by gunjunkie View Post
    Also, I'm not sure I can take anyone who cites RATM in an academic article seriously on any level.

    RATM? What is this?

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    Re: Ideology in Online War Games

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Male View Post
    RATM? What is this?
    The band

    DB
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    Re: Ideology in Online War Games

    ‘[video] games employ and deploy racial, gendered, and national meaning, often reinforcing dominant ideas and the status quo.’
    As do every form of entertainment media in existence. This is like observing that English-speaking peoples write books in English. Duh. Perhaps this statement is simply meant to set video games on an equal social footing with more traditional media? It's not a particularly profound sentiment.
    ‘virtual conquering [is] the basis of video game popularity and power’
    As others have said, this is the natural format of competitive or progressive play (including sports). However, there are other forms of gaming, such as community or sandbox style games.
    ‘[video game player’s] trigger happiness becomes a metonym for [a reflection of] their happiness with American military efforts’
    That's a determination made on a case by case basis. Certainly someone with a high interest in the American military is going to be attracted to a game ABOUT the American military. Whether or not you consider the American military "trigger-happy" is entirely subjective, and difficult to reflect in war gaming. Serious war gaming is as much about fire control and discipline as it is about shooting. And how squad-level tactics (either free-for-all or disciplined) translates into global policy is difficult to see.
    ‘the bloodlessness [within video games] contributes to an increasing acceptance of war’
    This is an old argument, and has some merit - the removal of consequences in entertainment can alter your perception of certain activities. One of the more famous examples of this was the normalization of alcoholism in (don't laugh) Cheers. A bunch of characters sit around at a bar drinking for 10 years and no one ever got drunk. This has a subtle psychological effect of disconnecting the activity from the consequence, at least subconsciously. So you could argue that constant immersion in an environment that makes killing and combat fun and profitable could influence one's attitude toward war. It is, after all, one of the army's recruitment tools.
    All of that does not switch off free will and the lessons of personal experience, however. If you have a relaxed position on conflict, pain, and human suffering it has more to do with your own prejudices and fears than anything you learned in a video game or movie, IMO.
    ‘Although war may seem harmless on the computer screen, this very harmlessness ironically elicits consent for U.S. foreign policy.’
    Derivative politically-motivated BS. See above.
    ‘We are teaching children to associate pleasure with human death and suffering. We are rewarding them for killing people. And we are teaching them to like it.’
    Again. They said this about TV, about movies, about rock and roll. Media does have a psychological and behavioral component to it, otherwise we wouldn't spend billions on advertising every year. But this grossly overstates the effect, and is indicative of a larger witch hunt.
    ‘[video] games teach … citizens to support murder without remorse.’
    So does Jack Bauer.
    In game handle: Steel Scion

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    Re: Ideology in Online War Games

    Just a quick reaction to those statements - I disagree with all of them. For the most part we're (at TG) all educated people who are at least in their mid-20's. If you look at The Sandbox (hardly representative, but still it is an indicator of opinion here) you'll see a split with regards to the current war roughly proportional to the U.S. at large, i.e. about half and half, trending towards more against the war.

    Just because the games "simulate" war doesn't mean that we confuse military games, which I see as being more glamorized versions of paintball that I used to play than actual military conflict, with blind acceptance of the waging of war.

    If there's any overlap of military gamers with support to war, it's because most likely war advocates/enthusiasts are a self-selected set that prefer the war game genre, i.e. war hawks prefer wargames, instead of wargames turning people into war hawks. But that too is probably too general to make any meaningful insight into the interaction of military gaming and support for X War.
    Beatnik

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    Re: Ideology in Online War Games

    ^^^ agreed.

    If you're looking for an angle for that paper, try this: For me, it replaces the camaraderie and pride I used to experience playing team-sports back in school. Maybe I'm a little warped, but "making a big play" for my team in BF2 (C4'ing armor that's slaughtering us, executing a perfect helo-insertion, knifing santa, etc, etc) gives me that same rush as scoring or turning a double play did back in school... I think it's the same reason guys who have trouble getting in and out of their cars still manage to play on their after-work softball team.

    |TG-12th|WhiskeySix

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    Re: Ideology in Online War Games

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Male View Post
    RATM? What is this?
    Rage Against The Machine. Its under the heading Military-academic-entertainment triangle.

    Lets not forget that RATM, despite there edgyness, were signed to Sony-BMG and can hardly, imho, be considered massively rebellious. Artfully crafted faux-rebels, maybe.


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    Re: Ideology in Online War Games

    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Blonov View Post
    ‘Unsettling the military entertainment complex: Video games and a pedagogy of peace.’

    In reply to David Leonard :

    ‘[video] games employ and deploy racial, gendered, and national meaning, often reinforcing dominant ideas and the status quo.’

    When I play, I play for my side. Regardless of the Country, race or color. The next round, I might be playing the other side. So Mario and Luigi are Italian, big deal.

    ‘virtual conquering [is] the basis of video game popularity and power’

    Same with all the sports. What's your point ? I play to win, yes, but also to play, and interract with others (gee, same with many sports and hobbies).

    ‘[video game player’s] trigger happiness becomes a metonym for [a reflection of] their happiness with American military efforts’

    Pardon me ? Based on what ? I would venture a guess here; many video game players have no interest whatsoever in the American military effort.

    ‘the bloodlessness [within video games] contributes to an increasing acceptance of war’

    Hang on here. Playing video games is a form of escape from reality. Not reality (so all Star Trek fans believe in Warp Drive ?).

    ‘Although war may seem harmless on the computer screen, this very harmlessness ironically elicits consent for U.S. foreign policy.’

    I would think video game players (that care about it) have their own opinion of the US foreign policy. The are many (and more effective) ways to steer opinions other than video games.

    ‘We are teaching children to associate pleasure with human death and suffering. We are rewarding them for killing people. And we are teaching them to like it.’

    Last time I checked, video games have a rating system, contrary to newscasts or the internet. We see children suffering on TV (not only from war), but not in video games.

    ‘[video] games teach … citizens to support murder without remorse.’

    This is a very simplistic view of things. I can think of a few killers and sociopaths that roamed around way before pacman was invented.

    DB
    ^^
    agree. DB already typed what I was thinking..

    The hungry, ignorant man immediately grasps that he is handed a fish, but is bewildered when handed a net. The man who shivers in the cold thinks happily of the man who invites him to sit by his fire, and somewhat poorly of the man who loans him an axe, flint and steel.

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    Re: Ideology in Online War Games

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Male View Post
    Ideology in Video War Games


    ‘[video] games employ and deploy racial, gendered, and national meaning, often reinforcing dominant ideas and the status quo.’

    They do most often employ such meaning. This is logical, games cater to a largest possible audience, in the overwhelming majority of cases. I have a good example of this. Someone plz help me with the name of this game. There was a chopper game about a decade ago (the time of goldeneye etc.) Where in the end the two male lead characters kissed... It was an easter egg, put in by one dev. He was subsequently fired! "Reinforcing dominant ideas and status quo."

    I think the author is right when stating that teaching in schools must provide a counterbalance against what I would call the 'light' version of history that games often display.

    ‘virtual conquering [is] the basis of video game popularity and power’

    Probably right, and probably a feature of all games. Even animals that play are really practising hunting and battle skills. But let's not get into any "intelligent" design discussions here .

    ‘[video game player’s] trigger happiness becomes a metonym for [a reflection of] their happiness with American military efforts’

    ‘the bloodlessness [within video games] contributes to an increasing acceptance of war’

    Many things can be said about censorship in games, but that it would increase acceptance of war? It would be hard to find a correlation here, it would be impossible to point the direction of the arrow of causality. That is without thinking of mediating variables. In the end I think esrb ratings are the main issue here.

    ‘Although war may seem harmless on the computer screen, this very harmlessness ironically elicits consent for U.S. foreign policy.’

    War in WW2 games never seemed "harmless" to me. Bf2 seems more harmless due to the pseudo fictional theatre of war. But off course not everyone knows some history. Possibly this statement is true for some people, for whom the only source of history is these games. I remember EA trying to push "Medal of Honor" into schools as an education tool *shivers*.

    ‘We are teaching children to associate pleasure with human death and suffering. We are rewarding them for killing people. And we are teaching them to like it.’

    "Killing" in a video game is related to real life killing, as scoring a point in tennis is to real life killing.

    ‘[video] games teach … citizens to support murder without remorse.’

    Cfr. supra; again relies on the false assumption that "killing" in a video-game is to be equated with "killing" in real life.

    This statement also contradicts the first statement that games reinforce dominant ideas. I would not say "supporting murder without remorse" is a dominant idea at this time.
    However it is obvious that "terrorists can be murdered without remorse" might well be a dominant idea.

    I would love to hear what you think about these claims.

    Thank you for your time,[/QUOTE]

    Pooo lack time,will edit later.
    What it's like to play online games as a grown-up:http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-i...e_gaming/1.jpg

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