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Discussion: Battlefield 2 / Battlefield 2 - Ranked Vanilla - Ideology in Online War Games - Ideology in Video War Games As some of you may already know, I am working
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    E-Male's Avatar

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    Ideology in Online War Games

    Ideology in Video War Games

    As some of you may already know, I am working on an ethnographic study of online gaming culture which may one day see the light as a book. In the meantime I am writing an article about the real and the hyperreal in the Tactical Gamer community for the Brazilian online journal of Communication INTERN. In this article I will discuss claims to the effect that ‘video games contribute to an acceptance of the militarization of society’ (Leonard).

    To this end, I am seeking your responses to the following claims and statements made in David Leonard’s article, ‘Unsettling the military entertainment complex: Video games and a pedagogy of peace.’

    ‘[video] games employ and deploy racial, gendered, and national meaning, often reinforcing dominant ideas and the status quo.’

    ‘virtual conquering [is] the basis of video game popularity and power’

    ‘[video game player’s] trigger happiness becomes a metonym for [a reflection of] their happiness with American military efforts’

    ‘the bloodlessness [within video games] contributes to an increasing acceptance of war’

    ‘Although war may seem harmless on the computer screen, this very harmlessness ironically elicits consent for U.S. foreign policy.’

    ‘We are teaching children to associate pleasure with human death and suffering. We are rewarding them for killing people. And we are teaching them to like it.’

    ‘[video] games teach … citizens to support murder without remorse.’

    I would love to hear what you think about these claims.


    Thank you for your time,
    Last edited by E-Male; 03-12-2007 at 05:41 PM.

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    Re: Ideology in Online War Games

    Has he ever played a video game? It's a diversion from reality, not a supplement.
    "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
    He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

    - Attributed to General George Patton, Jr.

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    Wink Re: Ideology in Online War Games

    For ease of reading I'm going to number these while I respond.

    1) [video] games employ and deploy racial, gendered, and national meaning, often reinforcing dominant ideas and the status quo.’

    A little hard to grasp but I'll give it a shot. "racial, gendered and national meaning"..... so a video game about the KKK will have white people, a video game about "apache" in Vietnam will be about the female sniper, and a video game about the MEC (fictional) will feature asian troops. He's right, just like I would be right in saying that this game is a flight sim and the sky will be blue.

    "Dominant ideas and the status quo". If he perhaps gave some examples it would help, I think he has thrown "race, gender and dominance" into the mix as catch words to make the reader think this will be an article/book/piece on civil/female rights and how the system holds those people down.

    2) virtual conquering [is] the basis of video game popularity and power’

    So is life. When is the last time you met someone that said "yeah I got that promotion but I'll be losing it soon!! I can't wait to get back to the bottom!"

    Unless I'm wrong most video games want you to start at one point and progress to another by winning (conquering) against others. I don't think I'd want to play something where I started as a winner and lost over and over until I was at the bottom with no hope of climbing back up. I'll be he hates Rocky movies too.

    Hell even Lemmings had you working to win by killing off the little buggers!

    3) video game player’s] trigger happiness becomes a metonym for [a reflection of] their happiness with American military efforts’

    Ok only a jackass would believe this.... really. I'm in the military and believe me my HALO and BF2 trigger happiness in no way makes me happy with our military efforts. Who in the hell could sit back and watch themselves playing Doom and think "man I sure am glad all those GI's are dying over in the sand box"?

    This guy is a Liberal.

    4) the bloodlessness [within video games] contributes to an increasing acceptance of war’

    Um no. The bloodlessness in video games may contribute to a higher tolerance of violence but war is a different animal. Ask any kid who has an X box and a father missing both legs from and IED. He'll tell you that war is different and it sucks.

    5) Although war may seem harmless on the computer screen, this very harmlessness ironically elicits consent for U.S. foreign policy.’

    Our foreign policy is one of forgiveness and aid, does this guy think that our guys died in Samalia because we were there to kill people? We were there on an aid mission. If the video game industry reflected foreign policy then we'd be bombing the **** out of Iran, Iraq, France, Germany and Russia.......

    6) We are teaching children to associate pleasure with human death and suffering. We are rewarding them for killing people. And we are teaching them to like it.’

    No. We are teaching our children that it's ok to sit inside all day and play video games as opposed to going outside and living a little. The reward for killing people in a video game is winning (see number 2 above). The reward for letting your kids sit inside all day on a computer is an adult with no social skills that loses his/her marbles in a tense "real world" situation and goes back the next day with a gun (see also Columbine). We are teaching our kids that staying inside with a keyboard is better than going outside and going fishing.

    7) [video] games teach … citizens to support murder without remorse.’

    Again...... no. Have this guy go down south and visit some of the Klan. Those guys kill without remorse and none (well maybe 1%) can even spell Xbox much less own one and play games. The same goes for south central almost anywhere. Tell this guy to get out of his glass house and come see the real world, we have serial rapists/murderers, terrorists, gangs etc..... they all kill (and worse) without remorse.


    Oh and if anyone who reads this is offended I don't care, I'm going fishing!
    Last edited by Backlash-7; 03-12-2007 at 07:34 PM.







    Quote Originally Posted by E-Male View Post
    I was going to click the heels of my ruby red shoes together and say "I want to go home. I want to go home."

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    Re: Ideology in Online War Games

    ‘[video] games employ and deploy racial, gendered, and national meaning, often reinforcing dominant ideas and the status quo.’
    Videogames like Battlefield do, yes. Players are rewarded for being a good solider - killing the enemy of the other nation upon sight, not killing players that belong to your nation, and the lack of female soldiers on the battlefield.

    Interestingly enough, when Battlefield 2 first came out, there were many complaints about the roles assigned to the African-American soldiers - they were given largely the "grunt" type kits, such as Assault, Support, and Anti-Tank, whereas the anglo-american soldiers were assigned complex, task-driven roles such as Spec-Ops, Medic, Sniper, and Engineer. I think there's a fair amount of truth to these allegations, and it is further fostering of dominant racial stereotypes and roles.

    ‘virtual conquering [is] the basis of video game popularity and power’

    ‘[video game player’s] trigger happiness becomes a metonym for [a reflection of] their happiness with American military efforts’ I'm not sure if this is entirely true, as the game doesn't necessarily portray a good-guy/bad-guy dynamic between the different armies.

    ‘the bloodlessness [within video games] contributes to an increasing acceptance of war’
    Perhaps among certain crowds, but I think most intelligent participants can make the distinction between war and videogames.

    ‘Although war may seem harmless on the computer screen, this very harmlessness ironically elicits consent for U.S. foreign policy.’
    This is true, and the US government knows this - hence the release of America's Army.

    ‘We are teaching children to associate pleasure with human death and suffering. We are rewarding them for killing people. And we are teaching them to like it.’
    Maybe. There's a line to a Gang of Four song that goes "Guerrilla war struggle is the new entertainment", and I think there's a fair amount of truth to that. But then again, the song was released in 1979, long before online gaming was big, so I don't think this is a new development - war has always been a source of entertainment

    ‘[video] games teach … citizens to support murder without remorse.’
    This is such a broad cultural statement that I don't think it can be pinned exclusively on videogames, but our culture in many ways does support murder without remorse, as long as it's the right people being murdered. Videogames to seem to play a part in that.

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    Re: Ideology in Online War Games

    Wow..all this time I thought I was playing a game.

    Burning spies is cool.

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    Angry Re: Ideology in Online War Games

    Quote Originally Posted by thebleakaffinity View Post
    ‘[video] games employ and deploy racial, gendered, and national meaning, often reinforcing dominant ideas and the status quo.’
    Videogames like Battlefield do, yes. Players are rewarded for being a good solider - killing the enemy of the other nation upon sight, not killing players that belong to your nation, and the lack of female soldiers on the battlefield.

    Interestingly enough, when Battlefield 2 first came out, there were many complaints about the roles assigned to the African-American soldiers - they were given largely the "grunt" type kits, such as Assault, Support, and Anti-Tank, whereas the anglo-american soldiers were assigned complex, task-driven roles such as Spec-Ops, Medic, Sniper, and Engineer. I think there's a fair amount of truth to these allegations, and it is further fostering of dominant racial stereotypes and roles.
    Let me TRY and understand this......

    You're saying that the developers of BF2 decided that......

    A) females have no place in front line combat
    B) if you're black you have to be a grunt
    C) if you're white you are therfore smarter and better able to handle command situation


    Having been a "grunt" for 6+ years (and white) I can't inderstand this. You are saying that having someone who is best at a certain duty, and placing them there, is racist? So since the ARMY put me on a "pig" (M60) and having me carry 1000 rounds of ammo they were being racist? Just because I scored high enough to be in the Governors 20 WITHIN THE UNITED STATES and am still so precise with that weapon system that I can kill from damn near 600 meters with 3 rounds that they are racists?

    Well hell I should sue the US for damages and get my officer stripes! Ain't no reason to have a cracker on the front lines.


    Before you decide to respond I'll tell you that I'm 35 (not 19) years old and have been on 2 deployments with the ARMY and 1 with the AirForce. Don't think for a SECOND that I don't understand War boy.







    Quote Originally Posted by E-Male View Post
    I was going to click the heels of my ruby red shoes together and say "I want to go home. I want to go home."

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    Re: Ideology in Online War Games

    Wow, I don't even know where to start. I read that guys "article" and I find his grasp of history, both real and video game to be sketchy at best. First off, let me set my bias. I am by no means a supporter of the war in Iraq, and in most things, I would consider myself to be liberal. Maybe not liberal in the stereotypical way its normally cast in the US, but liberal in terms of socially progressive, humanist vs. nationalist, etc. Bear in mind I grew up in apartheid South Africa, and there is not a direct mapping of political spectrum to US politics.

    This guy sounds like he has an agenda, and he's desperate to pin it on video games. I'll answer the direct questions first, then dig some holes in the rest of the piece.

    [1] ‘[video] games employ and deploy racial, gendered, and national meaning, often reinforcing dominant ideas and the status quo.’

    Yeah, tell that to the guys who keep gettin pwnd by the MEC forces in BF2. Other than a few poorly implemented games. Most game developers choose a fictional setting for their work, and with good reason. Even the so called hi-reality offerings are generally set in a near future or fictional conflict. I'd say some of the more high conflict games out there have no real bearing on the modern status quo. In other cases, they turn his dominant ideas on there head. For example, Mercenaries, a recent console game that is basically GTA in a war torn North Korea allows the player to control a deadly female operative. I see a pretty good mix of racial types in BF2, and most of the good games (the ones people play anyway, who tf actually plays Kuma:war) represent multinational task forces (Rainbow Six, Counterstrike) against "Terrorists" who are often ideological dissidents vs ethnic/religious enemies. Hell , the terrs in CS remind me more of the Bader-Mienhoff gang than Al Qaida. Those games set in the real reality of now are few and far between, and are generally set there because the game is crap, and the developers are desperately trying to get a few extra sales. Things like Americas Army don't count here, because even though you play as US Army, the other guys see you as OPFOR. The guys who wrote that game took a pretty good route around the exact issue he's trying to push here.

    [2] ‘virtual conquering [is] the basis of video game popularity and power’

    Well, duh, I'm no neurobiopsychologisthingamjiggie, but conflict, and some kind of reward for it are the basis of pretty much all gaming. Humans like that, we're bloody good at it. Better get used to it cause its going to be that way as long as we exist. Other than a few "special" games (Barbies funhouse adventures anyone?), just about every game we play features conflict and competition as its core motivator.

    [3] ‘[video game player’s] trigger happiness becomes a metonym for [a reflection of] their happiness with American military efforts’

    I'm not even sure how to approach this. The game, available right now, that features the most expansive conflict, is Eve-Online (which, if you are studying this stuff, E-Male, you really need to check out). Currently in Eve, a galactic conflict with probably as many as 10000 people (for real, actual people) participating, is raging. The reasons for it are many, but the war is bloody, and fought with venom on both sides. It has absolutely nothing, but nothing, to do with how happy the (prolly 60% euro) players are with Americas military efforts. No one take this the wrong way, but the world is a much bigger place than just America. I'm not saying people don't use video game aggression to burn off steam, but saying its specific to American military performance is amazingly naive and egotistical at best, and a total propagandist statement at worst.

    [4] ‘the bloodlessness [within video games] contributes to an increasing acceptance of war’

    Most of the good games aren't bloodless, it ruins the immersion. TBH, anyone with a clue know the difference.

    [5] ‘Although war may seem harmless on the computer screen, this very harmlessness ironically elicits consent for U.S. foreign policy.’

    Again, wtf does a war in space have to do with US foreign policy? The main problem here, is that he specifically wants to seperate games that he can make a point about from the rest of them. You can't. Modern/historical conflict is just a part of the spectrum of what is offered in gaming's whole. Just because a couple of game feature the US armed forces as protagonists, doesn't mean the rest of the world suddenly supports Bush.
    His argument that the desensitizing nature of video games, somehow makes us all "ok" with US foreign policy (read, War in Iraq). Again, amazingly naive or alarmingly propagandist. I think the problem with a lot of career academics is that they massively underestimate people.

    [6] ‘We are teaching children to associate pleasure with human death and suffering. We are rewarding them for killing people. And we are teaching them to like it.’

    Oh god, won't someone think of the aliens...

    [7] ‘[video] games teach … citizens to support murder without remorse.’

    Sigh, another, viewpoint rammed down my throat. First, we need to define murder. Is shooting an enemy on a battlefield murder? Not all would agree with either side of that line. Some games have taken violence to a pretty hectic level. Manhunt probably the most extreme of these. Even here, you are murdering other crims, not innocents. One of my all time favorites is Syndicate. Here, hours of amusement could be gotten by flamethrowing entire citys to lifeless burned out wastes. I'm pretty stable in RL.

    I don't know. First off, I really hope none of the US taxes I pay are going into this guys pockets. Seems like an aweful waste of money. He has an agenda, and is grasping at straws to push it. There are some really big holes in his "evidence" and assertions anyway.

    "Two things have occurred since 9/11. One is that there has been an interesting trend in the kinds of [video] games released"

    I think anyone who has played games long enough knows that war based games against terrorists were there before 9/11. In fact, some of our most popular titles are mearly continuations of long lines of games who's basic story, premise and gameplay elements were fixed long before this event. R6, GR, CS, OFP, to name a few, good ones.

    "Particularly important is the work of Baudrillard (1991), who argues that "[w]e have created a gigantic apparatus of simulation which allows us to pass to the act 'in vitro.' We prefer the exile of the virtual, of which television is the universal mirror to the catastrophe of the real" (p. 28). Claiming that the Gulf War never happened, Baudrillard challenges scholars..."

    I mean seriously, wtf??? People actually get payed to write this crap. Claiming the Gulf war never happened, and this twerp uses this guys apparently brilliant paper as a basis for his own, equally brilliant paper. You shouldn't build on landfill...

    Buadrillard can argue it all he wants, it doesn't make it so.

    "One signpost of this is the expanding cooperation between the military and the video game industry."

    If he'd bothered to do even one iota of research into this, he'd have found out that the military have been programming simulators a lot longer than the game industry has pretty much existed. The reason the Military has gone to the game industry to help with this is two fold. The military simulator programmers have, for the most part, moved into the game industry because there is more money, more fun and less restrictions there. Faced with this, the military has found out that its actually cheaper to go to these same game companies than it was to run their own development houses. Games and battlefield training simulators only look similar. They operate very differently and have very different requirements.

    "Call to Duty and Medal of Honor, both of which allow players to return to World War II, also fall into a similar trap of erasure. In these two games, black soldiers are completely missing. Selective memory of this kind reinforces hegemonic ideas about western dominance, emphasizing white/western/non-Arab participation. White people are presented as praiseworthy fighters and heroes; blacks are simply missing in action. I like to compare these video war games with pictures and statistical tables that show all-black regiments in World War II and integrated Marine units of today. "

    There is so much wrong with this sentence...

    For one, by his own admission, Black units in the US military were segregated in WWII. The stories these games follow involve units that were not black units. I'm pretty sure I would buy a WWII game featuring a black unit, but you can hardly call racism on Activision, because they decided to tell the story of the 101st AB. Wtf do "integrated marine units" of today have to do with WWII shooters. I can, and often do, play an ethincally diverse set of avatars in BF, so...?

    Wow, I could just go on and on here. It's patently obvious this guy doesn't know a thing about the subject matter he is dealing with. He's made a half assed attempt at research, projected some agendarific points into it and called it research.

    Great, now I'm angry... Time to go kill so virtual things...


    Do or do not, there is no try....
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    Re: Ideology in Online War Games

    Quote Originally Posted by Backlash-7 View Post
    Let me TRY and understand this......

    You're saying that the developers of BF2 decided that......

    A) females have no place in front line combat
    B) if you're black you have to be a grunt
    C) if you're white you are therfore smarter and better able to handle command situation


    Having been a "grunt" for 6+ years (and white) I can't inderstand this. You are saying that having someone who is best at a certain duty, and placing them there, is racist? So since the ARMY put me on a "pig" (M60) and having me carry 1000 rounds of ammo they were being racist? Just because I scored high enough to be in the Governors 20 WITHIN THE UNITED STATES and am still so precise with that weapon system that I can kill from damn near 600 meters with 3 rounds that they are racists?

    Well hell I should sue the US for damages and get my officer stripes! Ain't no reason to have a cracker on the front lines.


    Before you decide to respond I'll tell you that I'm 35 (not 19) years old and have been on 2 deployments with the ARMY and 1 with the AirForce. Don't think for a SECOND that I don't understand War boy.
    What the hell? Did you even read what I wrote?

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    Re: Ideology in Online War Games

    Quote Originally Posted by gunjunkie View Post
    Wow, I don't even know where to start. I read that guys "article" and I find his grasp of history, both real and video game to be sketchy at best. First off, let me set my bias. I am by no means a supporter of the war in Iraq, and in most things, I would consider myself to be liberal. Maybe not liberal in the stereotypical way its normally cast in the US, but liberal in terms of socially progressive, humanist vs. nationalist, etc. Bear in mind I grew up in apartheid South Africa, and there is not a direct mapping of political spectrum to US politics.

    This guy sounds like he has an agenda, and he's desperate to pin it on video games. I'll answer the direct questions first, then dig some holes in the rest of the piece.

    [1] ‘[video] games employ and deploy racial, gendered, and national meaning, often reinforcing dominant ideas and the status quo.’

    Yeah, tell that to the guys who keep gettin pwnd by the MEC forces in BF2. Other than a few poorly implemented games. Most game developers choose a fictional setting for their work, and with good reason. Even the so called hi-reality offerings are generally set in a near future or fictional conflict. I'd say some of the more high conflict games out there have no real bearing on the modern status quo. In other cases, they turn his dominant ideas on there head. For example, Mercenaries, a recent console game that is basically GTA in a war torn North Korea allows the player to control a deadly female operative. I see a pretty good mix of racial types in BF2, and most of the good games (the ones people play anyway, who tf actually plays Kuma:war) represent multinational task forces (Rainbow Six, Counterstrike) against "Terrorists" who are often ideological dissidents vs ethnic/religious enemies. Hell , the terrs in CS remind me more of the Bader-Mienhoff gang than Al Qaida. Those games set in the real reality of now are few and far between, and are generally set there because the game is crap, and the developers are desperately trying to get a few extra sales. Things like Americas Army don't count here, because even though you play as US Army, the other guys see you as OPFOR. The guys who wrote that game took a pretty good route around the exact issue he's trying to push here.

    [2] ‘virtual conquering [is] the basis of video game popularity and power’

    Well, duh, I'm no neurobiopsychologisthingamjiggie, but conflict, and some kind of reward for it are the basis of pretty much all gaming. Humans like that, we're bloody good at it. Better get used to it cause its going to be that way as long as we exist. Other than a few "special" games (Barbies funhouse adventures anyone?), just about every game we play features conflict and competition as its core motivator.

    [3] ‘[video game player’s] trigger happiness becomes a metonym for [a reflection of] their happiness with American military efforts’

    I'm not even sure how to approach this. The game, available right now, that features the most expansive conflict, is Eve-Online (which, if you are studying this stuff, E-Male, you really need to check out). Currently in Eve, a galactic conflict with probably as many as 10000 people (for real, actual people) participating, is raging. The reasons for it are many, but the war is bloody, and fought with venom on both sides. It has absolutely nothing, but nothing, to do with how happy the (prolly 60% euro) players are with Americas military efforts. No one take this the wrong way, but the world is a much bigger place than just America. I'm not saying people don't use video game aggression to burn off steam, but saying its specific to American military performance is amazingly naive and egotistical at best, and a total propagandist statement at worst.

    [4] ‘the bloodlessness [within video games] contributes to an increasing acceptance of war’

    Most of the good games aren't bloodless, it ruins the immersion. TBH, anyone with a clue know the difference.

    [5] ‘Although war may seem harmless on the computer screen, this very harmlessness ironically elicits consent for U.S. foreign policy.’

    Again, wtf does a war in space have to do with US foreign policy? The main problem here, is that he specifically wants to seperate games that he can make a point about from the rest of them. You can't. Modern/historical conflict is just a part of the spectrum of what is offered in gaming's whole. Just because a couple of game feature the US armed forces as protagonists, doesn't mean the rest of the world suddenly supports Bush.
    His argument that the desensitizing nature of video games, somehow makes us all "ok" with US foreign policy (read, War in Iraq). Again, amazingly naive or alarmingly propagandist. I think the problem with a lot of career academics is that they massively underestimate people.

    [6] ‘We are teaching children to associate pleasure with human death and suffering. We are rewarding them for killing people. And we are teaching them to like it.’

    Oh god, won't someone think of the aliens...

    [7] ‘[video] games teach … citizens to support murder without remorse.’

    Sigh, another, viewpoint rammed down my throat. First, we need to define murder. Is shooting an enemy on a battlefield murder? Not all would agree with either side of that line. Some games have taken violence to a pretty hectic level. Manhunt probably the most extreme of these. Even here, you are murdering other crims, not innocents. One of my all time favorites is Syndicate. Here, hours of amusement could be gotten by flamethrowing entire citys to lifeless burned out wastes. I'm pretty stable in RL.

    I don't know. First off, I really hope none of the US taxes I pay are going into this guys pockets. Seems like an aweful waste of money. He has an agenda, and is grasping at straws to push it. There are some really big holes in his "evidence" and assertions anyway.

    "Two things have occurred since 9/11. One is that there has been an interesting trend in the kinds of [video] games released"

    I think anyone who has played games long enough knows that war based games against terrorists were there before 9/11. In fact, some of our most popular titles are mearly continuations of long lines of games who's basic story, premise and gameplay elements were fixed long before this event. R6, GR, CS, OFP, to name a few, good ones.

    "Particularly important is the work of Baudrillard (1991), who argues that "[w]e have created a gigantic apparatus of simulation which allows us to pass to the act 'in vitro.' We prefer the exile of the virtual, of which television is the universal mirror to the catastrophe of the real" (p. 28). Claiming that the Gulf War never happened, Baudrillard challenges scholars..."

    I mean seriously, wtf??? People actually get payed to write this crap. Claiming the Gulf war never happened, and this twerp uses this guys apparently brilliant paper as a basis for his own, equally brilliant paper. You shouldn't build on landfill...

    Buadrillard can argue it all he wants, it doesn't make it so.

    "One signpost of this is the expanding cooperation between the military and the video game industry."

    If he'd bothered to do even one iota of research into this, he'd have found out that the military have been programming simulators a lot longer than the game industry has pretty much existed. The reason the Military has gone to the game industry to help with this is two fold. The military simulator programmers have, for the most part, moved into the game industry because there is more money, more fun and less restrictions there. Faced with this, the military has found out that its actually cheaper to go to these same game companies than it was to run their own development houses. Games and battlefield training simulators only look similar. They operate very differently and have very different requirements.

    "Call to Duty and Medal of Honor, both of which allow players to return to World War II, also fall into a similar trap of erasure. In these two games, black soldiers are completely missing. Selective memory of this kind reinforces hegemonic ideas about western dominance, emphasizing white/western/non-Arab participation. White people are presented as praiseworthy fighters and heroes; blacks are simply missing in action. I like to compare these video war games with pictures and statistical tables that show all-black regiments in World War II and integrated Marine units of today. "

    There is so much wrong with this sentence...

    For one, by his own admission, Black units in the US military were segregated in WWII. The stories these games follow involve units that were not black units. I'm pretty sure I would buy a WWII game featuring a black unit, but you can hardly call racism on Activision, because they decided to tell the story of the 101st AB. Wtf do "integrated marine units" of today have to do with WWII shooters. I can, and often do, play an ethincally diverse set of avatars in BF, so...?

    Wow, I could just go on and on here. It's patently obvious this guy doesn't know a thing about the subject matter he is dealing with. He's made a half assed attempt at research, projected some agendarific points into it and called it research.

    Great, now I'm angry... Time to go kill so virtual things...

    I am humbled by this response. Thank you for posting.







    Quote Originally Posted by E-Male View Post
    I was going to click the heels of my ruby red shoes together and say "I want to go home. I want to go home."

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    Re: Ideology in Online War Games

    Thank you all for your replies thus far (and I hope more will voice their opinions). Please keep in mind that I do not necessarily share the opinions of the author, David Leonard.

    I do not want to voice my opinions at all at this point, as I do not want to bias the answer I get. What I am seeking to do here is to draw a contrast and comparision between David Leonard’s assumptions and conclusions and those of the TG community. This will be the substance of the article which I am working on. There is an obvious dispairty between the academic's point of view and the fan community's point of view, and I intent to explore the nature, source, and significance of that disparity (or similarity) of opinions.

    Again, I am very grateful for the number of thoughtful responses, and hope to see more. I will post a draft of my own article here in one week or so. Until then I must remain silent on these matters.

    Thank you,

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  21. #11

    gunjunkie's Avatar

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    Re: Ideology in Online War Games

    For reference, I am aware that this is his work and not yours .

    Also, I work in the games industry, and have been a gamer myself since pong, as far as frame of reference goes.

    A couple of further points. I think in some cases, games have been very forward with breaking some of these very "dominant ideas" that he talks about. ethnic, female, other heros and protagonists are very common, and gaming is one of the few mediums where this is accepted and even enjoyed. I'm willing to bet that in gaming culture, a white guy will happily play a game that features a black female hero and vice versa, because its a fun game. I don't know of one gamer, regardless of persuasion that will forgo the latest gaming experience because of some weird bias.

    Also E-Male, I really do think you should look at Eve if this is an area of study of yours. Feel free to PM me for more info.


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  23. #12

    Dick Blonov's Avatar

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    Re: Ideology in Online War Games

    ‘Unsettling the military entertainment complex: Video games and a pedagogy of peace.’

    In reply to David Leonard :

    ‘[video] games employ and deploy racial, gendered, and national meaning, often reinforcing dominant ideas and the status quo.’

    When I play, I play for my side. Regardless of the Country, race or color. The next round, I might be playing the other side. So Mario and Luigi are Italian, big deal.

    ‘virtual conquering [is] the basis of video game popularity and power’

    Same with all the sports. What's your point ? I play to win, yes, but also to play, and interract with others (gee, same with many sports and hobbies).

    ‘[video game player’s] trigger happiness becomes a metonym for [a reflection of] their happiness with American military efforts’

    Pardon me ? Based on what ? I would venture a guess here; many video game players have no interest whatsoever in the American military effort.

    ‘the bloodlessness [within video games] contributes to an increasing acceptance of war’

    Hang on here. Playing video games is a form of escape from reality. Not reality (so all Star Trek fans believe in Warp Drive ?).

    ‘Although war may seem harmless on the computer screen, this very harmlessness ironically elicits consent for U.S. foreign policy.’

    I would think video game players (that care about it) have their own opinion of the US foreign policy. The are many (and more effective) ways to steer opinions other than video games.

    ‘We are teaching children to associate pleasure with human death and suffering. We are rewarding them for killing people. And we are teaching them to like it.’

    Last time I checked, video games have a rating system, contrary to newscasts or the internet. We see children suffering on TV (not only from war), but not in video games.

    ‘[video] games teach … citizens to support murder without remorse.’

    This is a very simplistic view of things. I can think of a few killers and sociopaths that roamed around way before pacman was invented.

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  25. #13

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    Re: Ideology in Online War Games

    I think their may be some confusion about the games the article was targeting - the artice specifically targets military-based games, not games like Pac-Man. E-Male's paraphrasing inserts videogames, when I think it's really supposed to specify military games.

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    Re: Ideology in Online War Games

    Well, he specifically mentions DOOM, which is not what I would consider a war game, although it is violent.

    I guess my point is, you can't really take one without the other. There are plenty of war games that don't even feature human opponents. Its going to be easy to take a piece of drek like the Desert Storm (one of the most popular???) and pick holes in it, but to use that as the basis for a bunch of psuedo-philosophical gobbledegook saying that the military-entertainment hegemony are using it to eat our kids brains is just, well, bleh...

    I could attempt to make any point stick if I only picked the facts I wanted to use and ignored the rest.

    Also, I'm not sure I can take anyone who cites RATM in an academic article seriously on any level.


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    Re: Ideology in Online War Games

    Quote Originally Posted by thebleakaffinity View Post
    I think their may be some confusion about the games the article was targeting - the artice specifically targets military-based games, not games like Pac-Man. E-Male's paraphrasing inserts videogames, when I think it's really supposed to specify military games.
    I could have used pong or asteroids . My point was that serial killers, psychopaths and sociopaths were around way before military games.

    If you like statistics, FBI numbers on crime rate between 1986-2005...

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