Re: Tunis Commanding Question

**Zhohar** · 05-18-2009, 02:36 PM

Jangles -- you made the right call.

Now as for this thread, ArmoredBear asked you why you wanted to do this, and he wasn't being a jerk about it. He sincerely wanted to know what you meant to do, and he wouldn't be a passive agressive bastard by doing it -- he's too much of a gentleman to do that.
I think you might have misinterpreted his tone.

From your explanation, you did the right thing. I would have done so had I been the SL on Eastern. I am tempted to call the people on Eastern crackpots for not setting mines down on the east road, but come on, when have I done that myself? Wasting a kit in a TG squad like that is just a horrible idea.

**Memento-Mori** · 05-18-2009, 05:51 PM

Clever move.

Here's an example of a move that needs to be done immediately to have any effect. Sure the CO can explain the important things, but the SL has no time to start questioning the move. By that time the moment might well be lost.

**MrJengles** · 05-18-2009, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by Zhohar

Jangles -- you made the right call.

Now as for this thread, ArmoredBear asked you why you wanted to do this, and he wasn't being a jerk about it. He sincerely wanted to know what you meant to do, and he wouldn't be a passive agressive bastard by doing it -- he's too much of a gentleman to do that.
I think you might have misinterpreted his tone.

From your explanation, you did the right thing. I would have done so had I been the SL on Eastern. I am tempted to call the people on Eastern crackpots for not setting mines down on the east road, but come on, when have I done that myself? Wasting a kit in a TG squad like that is just a horrible idea.

"Jangles" -- who is this Jangles you speak of?

And I know that, I hoped my first post made that clear. Dorb and Armored just asked about it, Armored thankfully after the round but it needed more explaining than I could do on TS. Has Dorb seen this thread yet? Where he be at?

It would be rare for anyone to think of the mines, but never mind.

Actually it was a different squad asking about the order since I was using B...I thought they might find it nice to know what the other squad was doing since it was the only other thing happening on the map. HenkeTheMonkey was the one I sent across the barge and I saw him respond immediately without questioning, as he had done to all other orders. So kudos to him

**Crux** · 05-19-2009, 09:15 AM

It wasn't a bad thought Jengles but it needed to be implemented a little differently. The problem comes with your initial picture of the layout when you decided to place the order. The enemy troops that are pressuring Power are in good position to cover the boat crossing very quickly. If the enemy commander is observant, he can give them plenty of warning, and they can in effect be there to ambush.

Really when you command, you have to think in terms of time and space. This diversionary attack wasn't going to create time OR space for your team. They can quickly shift, deal with the attack and then quickly shift back.

The correct play? There are a couple of variations on this. But essentially you have to leave some folks 'at home' at Eastern - one of them should be an engineer who mines the back entranceway and waits with a Pilum for any would-be back buggy rush. Then you send 3-4 people ONLY in a buggy to rush the back side of Junkyard. Obviously they don't need to cap the flag, so what you do is have them not even get on cap radius. Have them stick together and race around in the covered areas near the flag. This will make their force seem larger than it is, and make the commander likely waste a UAV on them. Now the enemy has to draw forces truly away from the Power area to deal with them - it takes them a LOT longer to get to and deal with a squad that is behind Junkyard. And having done so, it takes them a lot longer to get back. This would be enough to consolidate the win.

**jazy2** · 05-19-2009, 09:21 AM

To select squads you may also press the number key of the squad to talk to.

1 = select squad 1 only
5 = select squad 5 only

Some may find it easier than clicking.....

**LogicalHarm** · 05-19-2009, 11:29 AM

you can hold control to select multiple squads as well. so says the manual....

**jazy2** · 05-19-2009, 01:59 PM

I thought that but wasn't 100%.....thanks for checking it out!

**BeSiege82** · 05-19-2009, 04:28 PM

I think you did well for you situation, but I think there is another way to have dealt with the situation.

Personally, I think you could have done your plan with one change that causes a new scenario. I think it might have worked, if you would have changed things right at step one:

1) order 1 squad at Power to defend Eastern.

(Possible scenario following)

2) After the second squad arrives at Eastern, order the squad originally defending Eastern to move towards Junk.

3) After the squad that is sent to Junk completes the mission of distraction by either capturing junk or dying, tell them to

3a) if they capture Junk, take a squad from Power and order them to defend Junk. This means that there would be 2 squads a junk, 1 squad at Power, and 1 squad at Eastern.

3b) if the squad is killed, tell the killed squad to defend either Power or Eastern depending on where a new enemy push is formed.

4) Ride the round out by defending the flags you have.

As a side note, the diversionary squad does not need to cross the boat, you could do as Crux said, or you could have them do a run that has the squad split between a buggy and a 3 man group that goes across the boat.

**MrJengles** · 05-27-2009, 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by Crux

The enemy troops that are pressuring Power are in good position to cover the boat crossing very quickly. If the enemy commander is observant, he can give them plenty of warning, and they can in effect be there to ambush.

Really when you command, you have to think in terms of time and space. This diversionary attack wasn't going to create time OR space for your team. They can quickly shift, deal with the attack and then quickly shift back.

The correct play? There are a couple of variations on this. But essentially you have to leave some folks 'at home' at Eastern - one of them should be an engineer who mines the back entranceway and waits with a Pilum for any would-be back buggy rush. Then you send 3-4 people ONLY in a buggy to rush the back side of Junkyard. Obviously they don't need to cap the flag, so what you do is have them not even get on cap radius. Have them stick together and race around in the covered areas near the flag. This will make their force seem larger than it is, and make the commander likely waste a UAV on them. Now the enemy has to draw forces truly away from the Power area to deal with them - it takes them a LOT longer to get to and deal with a squad that is behind Junkyard. And having done so, it takes them a lot longer to get back. This would be enough to consolidate the win.

When you are commanding you have to think about many things, time and space had nothing to do with the goal; that was to relieve pressure on Power as it was a simple matter of numbers and tickets. Time becomes an issue with how long it takes to carry out an order. I knew the enemy could cover the barge well, but only if they spotted and acted on the push straight away, which does not always happen, not even on TG. In any case, them reacting and moving their forces is what I wanted. Again I will remind you that a SL also has their own input and could have acted as my point 4 described.

Yes sending 3 - 4 people and the mines suggestion would probably have been better, but I was entirely unexpecting the buggy and thought a Sat Track would give warning too. It does not take much time to fall back from the barge, unless you are pinned down and about to die as it turned out.

As for the buggy option I can't remember whether there was even a buggy available, probably, but that option actually takes longer as the squad has to go get the buggy (and only 3 could use it but then that links with the last paragraph) and then drive it either around the entire map or through the entire enemy team. Due to tickets there was not enough time for this to be effective and, therefore, there was no way to get a squad to the back other than to push to the flag and assess the situation as they progressed. I had every intention of ordering them back and never capping Junkyard as the most likely scenario, unless the other team didn't notice a thing XD

Originally Posted by jazy2

To select squads you may also press the number key of the squad to talk to.

1 = select squad 1 only
5 = select squad 5 only

Some may find it easier than clicking.....

XD I have not thought of using the numbers while commanding: one time I noticed at the squad screen when you arn't commander that pressing the numbers will show who's in the squad as if you'd hit the arrow, and I always forget that, as pointless a piece of info it is lol. But might be useful when commanding, thank you.

Originally Posted by LogicalHarm

you can hold control to select multiple squads as well. so says the manual....

Yeah I used to be better about that and use control while clicking, I should get back into the habbit...thanks.

Originally Posted by BeSiege82

1) order 1 squad at Power to defend Eastern.

(Possible scenario following)

2) After the second squad arrives at Eastern, order the squad originally defending Eastern to move towards Junk.

3) After the squad that is sent to Junk completes the mission of distraction by either capturing junk or dying, tell them to

3a) if they capture Junk, take a squad from Power and order them to defend Junk. This means that there would be 2 squads a junk, 1 squad at Power, and 1 squad at Eastern.

3b) if the squad is killed, tell the killed squad to defend either Power or Eastern depending on where a new enemy push is formed.

4) Ride the round out by defending the flags you have.

As a side note, the diversionary squad does not need to cross the boat, you could do as Crux said, or you could have them do a run that has the squad split between a buggy and a 3 man group that goes across the boat.

Again, the buggy would've taken too long. Yes I had the time to do it...but not the time to see it's effects on the tickets as quickly. And no it did not need to cross the boat, I meant to give the order to cross, but if stopped - to hold as I showed in point 4. Perhaps it should have been to stop at the barge and only move if unnoticed thus far. They are the same thing but it might've helped let the SL know my thinking better. Even if they weren't stopped they would probably have had to fall back immediately AFTER crossing the barge. This was too much to explain and I was going to watch their progress and give follow up orders on the way.

Waiting for another squad to reach Eastern before doing anything would have taken even longer and actually lightened the defence at Power. Making Power more easy for the enemy to take, for a plan that was meant to make it harder.

This is entirely not what I'd want to do, moving the squads simultaneously would be more of an option, but then it would become a gamble as to whether the enemy falls back and all is well, or they push onto Power and take it (giving up Junkyard), which was a less favourable outcome as it would lose tickets from all the now dead people at Power, precisely what I was trying to prevent. So it's a gamble with either a great outcome or horrible one. No good AND bad points for both.

Similar Match

I recently played a similar match with the same layout although I was on foot, at Power, defending as PAC. I must say that it was horrible and terrific at the same time, it was extremely fast paced, hectic - and very fun. We nearly lost the flag a bunch of times but managed to hold it. The tickets spoke for themselves and at the end of the round we had won by more than just that little bit. So it's possible to hold out, but just as possible to lose out.

**Crux** · 05-27-2009, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by MrJengles

When you are commanding you have to think about many things, time and space had nothing to do with the goal;

This is why you lost. Time and space had EVERYTHING to do with the goal. That's how you relieve pressure mate. You create time and space between your forces and theirs.

Time becomes an issue with how long it takes to carry out an order.

Cuts both ways. They had time to counter your barge push, AND send a squad behind to cap your back flag. And this is where the time/space thing comes in. Your aggressive action (the barge push) took away very little time from the enemy, and created no space for your forces at Power. It did however create the space and time for them to get behind you before you could respond.

I knew the enemy could cover the barge well, but only if they spotted and acted on the push straight away, which does not always happen, not even on TG.

This is a very common mistake. It's very easy to notice in beginner's chess. The beginner chess player will make a move and hope the opponent doesn't notice the obvious consequence and makes a mistake. The expert chess player doesn't need to hide what he's doing. He makes a move because it is tactically the right play and gives him a position of strength.

You made a play hoping not to get noticed. You did and you lost. The play I suggested is one that DEMANDS a response from the other team. There is no hoping involved. They either pull forces off pressuring Power and give you the time and space to hold that flag, or they let you take their only cappable flag that they hold. The equivalent of a chess fork - they have to choose which piece to lose.

In any case, them reacting and moving their forces is what I wanted.

Sure. But what you did had them react and move their forces in a way which didn't really relieve the pressure on Power, which was the ultimate goal.

In short you made a mistake. Of course you're being so defensive and argumentative about it I wonder if you'll learn from it and make a smarter choice next time. That's up to you. But for future reference if you do make a mistake and people try to help you, arguing that the actions you took which lost the round were the right ones isn't going to help you to learn.

**Zhohar** · 05-27-2009, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by Crux

This is a very common mistake. It's very easy to notice in beginner's chess. The beginner chess player will make a move and hope the opponent doesn't notice the obvious consequence and makes a mistake. The expert chess player doesn't need to hide what he's doing. He makes a move because it is tactically the right play and gives him a position of strength.

Emotionally-influenced reasoning. The newbie makes a decision based on fear, hope, lack of self-confidence, inexperience and a host of other un-helpful things. If he ignores his fear, his hope, lack of self-confidence, and stops playing by emotion, not only does he free up mental processing power to properly analyze the problem, he also chooses the most logically and tactically sound solution.

You chose to push Junk out of fear. Fear of losing Power, whatever -- fear nonetheless.
But if you stand back to analyze the situation logically, without emotion: think what would EU do? They are bleeding, and facing the whole PAC team on Power? I'd do a buggy-rush to Eastern, pronto.
And you're choosing to send those 6 Eastern defenders on an assault on their whole team, in full view on the barge?

Emotionally influenced reasoning. It's easy to call it that now, I realize, and I'm not picking on you Jengles -- this applies more to SLs than it does to COs. If I had to give my #1 flaw as an SL right now -- that'd be it: emotionally-influenced decision making. I have enough experience to hide it and sometimes enough maturity to supress it, but on a clean slate against an equal opponent, it is my #1 flaw.

**MrJengles** · 05-27-2009, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by Crux

This is why you lost. Time and space had EVERYTHING to do with the goal. That's how you relieve pressure mate. You create time and space between your forces and theirs.

Cuts both ways. They had time to counter your barge push, AND send a squad behind to cap your back flag. And this is where the time/space thing comes in. Your aggressive action (the barge push) took away very little time from the enemy, and created no space for your forces at Power. It did however create the space and time for them to get behind you before you could respond.

This is a very common mistake. It's very easy to notice in beginner's chess. The beginner chess player will make a move and hope the opponent doesn't notice the obvious consequence and makes a mistake. The expert chess player doesn't need to hide what he's doing. He makes a move because it is tactically the right play and gives him a position of strength.

You made a play hoping not to get noticed. You did and you lost. The play I suggested is one that DEMANDS a response from the other team. There is no hoping involved. They either pull forces off pressuring Power and give you the time and space to hold that flag, or they let you take their only cappable flag that they hold. The equivalent of a chess fork - they have to choose which piece to lose.

Sure. But what you did had them react and move their forces in a way which didn't really relieve the pressure on Power, which was the ultimate goal.

In short you made a mistake. Of course you're being so defensive and argumentative about it I wonder if you'll learn from it and make a smarter choice next time. That's up to you. But for future reference if you do make a mistake and people try to help you, arguing that the actions you took which lost the round were the right ones isn't going to help you to learn.

ooo I sense an arguement lol.

To reiterate, we won the round, although I made a decision that ended badly, as happens to many commanders. I have learnt from it as I've mentioned already to those that suggested the mines or leaving a couple behind. The first being something I didn't think of, although technically its more down to the SLer, if the commander thinks of it he should certainly make sure. The second being my own fault that I didn't expect the buggy / expected to have a sat track warning even if there was one. It must've moved exactly in-between the 2 lol.

The move did relieve the pressure at Power as I showed in the pictures. One squad moved to the barge, and the others fell back. I made the move hoping I would get noticed actually, otherwise there would be no response from the enemy. I was hoping not to get noticed quite so quickly / instantly. I play chess, and while what you say is true about it, people may move pieces for an obvious goal that they know the opponent will counter easily because they want the opponent to move in response due to some other reason and an overall bigger goal. Which is precisely what happened.

Finally, they had time to do things because the tickets hadn't run out yet, nothing to do with my orders. They had "space" to take the flag I'll agree on that because I moved my forces away. As I said, the squad would have had time to run back to the flag if needed, but they got pinned down so that having the time didn't matter because they were just dieing

If they were set up like in point 4 they would have been able to get back to the flag in time.

The only way in which I wanted time to be taken from the enemy was reducing the enemy tickets which is the overall objective for the commander (as well as preventing their teams ticket loss). I was preventing the enemy overrunning Power and the subsequent ticket loss of all the people that died defending it. By their reaction to my order, I helped to prevent this, I would simply call that a matter of tickets rather than time. As for space, the enemy withdrew but were still firing in, so no, no space was created. But seeing as we had 2 flags, gaining space was not a target for me, we already held the majority. Also, once they retreated we could fire back from Power just as much as they fired in, but it was too hard to kill them while they were hiding behind the buildings and they were an immenant threat that close to Power. Even if they'd stayed they'd have had less people because of the squad sent to the barge and so the threat would have been reduced at Power.

**MrJengles** · 05-27-2009, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by Zhohar

Emotionally-influenced reasoning. The newbie makes a decision based on fear, hope, lack of self-confidence, inexperience and a host of other un-helpful things. If he ignores his fear, his hope, lack of self-confidence, and stops playing by emotion, not only does he free up mental processing power to properly analyze the problem, he also chooses the most logically and tactically sound solution.

You chose to push Junk out of fear. Fear of losing Power, whatever -- fear nonetheless.
But if you stand back to analyze the situation logically, without emotion: think what would EU do? They are bleeding, and facing the whole PAC team on Power? I'd do a buggy-rush to Eastern, pronto.
And you're choosing to send those 6 Eastern defenders on an assault on their whole team, in full view on the barge?

Emotionally influenced reasoning. It's easy to call it that now, I realize, and I'm not picking on you Jengles -- this applies more to SLs than it does to COs. If I had to give my #1 flaw as an SL right now -- that'd be it: emotionally-influenced decision making. I have enough experience to hide it and sometimes enough maturity to supress it, but on a clean slate against an equal opponent, it is my #1 flaw.

There is nothing wrong with an order made from fear or "emotionally influenced reasoning". In war, this virtue protects the lives of soldiers, if you had no fear of them failing at something, then perhaps they would all end up wounded and without a rescue mission. With fear, you may send a rescue mission, that although ending up pointless should they win, would have been extremely useful and the right thing to do had they lost.

What you need to do is learn to play with the right amount of fear, you can't send help everytime when you know it weakens somewhere else. But too little, and you end up expecting squads to be able to hold flags every time and never sending help. It is a matter of weighing up the decision and having the right amount of "fear" at the time.

I was analyzing the situation logically, PAC outnumbered on a flag which if taken results in the death of every PAC person at that flag which is most of my team (revives are irrelavant as they must all die in the end and stay dead for it to be taken). When the tickets are so close this is the worst thing that could happen, even a buggy rush to take the other flag does not matter as much due to the very little advantage they'd have from ticket bleed (it would not last very long).

The people I sent were not assualting the enemy team at all, the team weren't on Junkyard flag. They were however, close enough to it to fall back, but I very much doubt any commander would send an entire teams worth of a push back to defend a flag against 1 squad. What actually happened was 1 squad was sent back. The rest fell back halfway to Junkyard, stopping their own push to Power. From there they still could not deal with the people on the barge - although they did not need to because the other squad was dealing with it. So my squad was not sent into any outnumbered situation. As for full view - the map was all they needed so in that sense, yes full view but my point is the difference that just because they knew I was there they still had to move before they could actually attack the squad properly, so not really full view.

I was constantly thinking about the buggy rush which is exactly why that squad had stayed on Eastern for all that time so far. But the tickets were close and losing was a possibility and I saw a way to try and help the matter, so I did. Again, I didn't expect a buggy as it seemed to me their entire team was at Power - which I think it was until some died and spawned back at the UCB - also I thought I'd be able to see the buggy coming and the squad would be able to fall back but they got pinned down.

I know your not picking on me Zho

you agreed with me earlier on this too lol.

**LordKelvin** · 05-28-2009, 12:06 PM

Show me an emotionless commander or squad leader and I will show you a square circle.

Emotion is an inseperable part of being human. You might as well incorporate it into your decision-making process. If it feels wrong, even if it seems otherwise, you're probably wiser to not do it.

**Crux** · 05-28-2009, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by MrJengles

ooo I sense an arguement lol.

To reiterate, we won the round, although I made a decision that ended badly, as happens to many commanders.

That's my bad. I didn't re-read the initial post :P

The move did relieve the pressure at Power as I showed in the pictures. One squad moved to the barge, and the others fell back. I made the move hoping I would get noticed actually, otherwise there would be no response from the enemy. I was hoping not to get noticed quite so quickly / instantly.

It did relieve the pressure at power... but at what cost? You threw away a bunch of tickets on the barge, and lost your second flag.

I play chess, and while what you say is true about it, people may move pieces for an obvious goal that they know the opponent will counter easily because they want the opponent to move in response due to some other reason and an overall bigger goal. Which is precisely what happened.

Except it really isn't. Your move was a blunder - it was exchanging a rook for a couple of pawns. Look, you tried to do something hoping the enemy wouldn't notice. You were the chess player sitting there hoping that his opponent doesn't notice that his knight is completely unguarded and can be taken safely by that bishop across the board.

The alternative move is like pushing that supported pawn into the middle of the board. There's no trick to it. You're not relying on someone not noticing a very easily noticed thing for success. It is just good positional play.

Finally, they had time to do things because the tickets hadn't run out yet, nothing to do with my orders. They had "space" to take the flag I'll agree on that because I moved my forces away. As I said, the squad would have had time to run back to the flag if needed, but they got pinned down so that having the time didn't matter because they were just dieing

If they were set up like in point 4 they would have been able to get back to the flag in time.

You had the same time was my point. Tickets hadn't run out for anyone. You could have been patient, sent a buggy around back and not sacrificed so much for so little. There was time to do a lot of things.

The only way in which I wanted time to be taken from the enemy was reducing the enemy tickets which is the overall objective for the commander (as well as preventing their teams ticket loss). I was preventing the enemy overrunning Power and the subsequent ticket loss of all the people that died defending it. By their reaction to my order, I helped to prevent this, I would simply call that a matter of tickets rather than time. As for space, the enemy withdrew but were still firing in, so no, no space was created. But seeing as we had 2 flags, gaining space was not a target for me, we already held the majority. Also, once they retreated we could fire back from Power just as much as they fired in, but it was too hard to kill them while they were hiding behind the buildings and they were an immenant threat that close to Power. Even if they'd stayed they'd have had less people because of the squad sent to the barge and so the threat would have been reduced at Power.

So I don't think you're really getting the whole time/space thing. You use time and space to your advantage to create situations in which you can take the tickets needed for victory. Sometimes you want a slow-paced exchange. Sometimes a frantic high-paced exchange is to your advantage. Sometimes you want people engaging from a distance - other times in close. Sometimes you want to create space within the enemy's forces - or take actions which take time away from them in the form of making them take longer to do something which would normally be fast.

It isn't always just about tickets. It is about doing things which create tactical and strategic advantages so you can either outkill the enemy, or get more ticket bleed than them while being at least neutral on kills.

In this instance, you have pressure at power. Pressure is a result of low time to contact with the enemy (beacons in forward positions or enemy squad leaders with enemy soldiers spawning in on them), and low space (both geographical distance and sight-lines. You pulled the enemy forces away in a direction that didn't create any significance or time for your forces at Power. Moving to cover the barge, they could quickly and easily put fire back onto power. They could easily move back and hit power within moments.

If you had sent a buggy with a SL in it around to the back side of Junk, you force them to respond in an entirely different manner. Now they have to relocate to a position in which they cannot quickly put fire onto Power. Likewise they can't quickly move back. It creates time and space in which you still have bleed. You don't expose Eastern. It completely changes that dynamic. Now they can't pin your forces down while taking your back flag. You are in effect pinning their forces away. You are making them fight over a non-critical location - it is critical to them but not to you. Now you're fighting on your terms, and you're not relying on someone not noticing in order to pull it off

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