Re: Tunis Commanding Question

**MrJengles** · 05-28-2009, 11:13 PM

Misunderstanding

Originally Posted by Crux

It did relieve the pressure at power... but at what cost? You threw away a bunch of tickets on the barge, and lost your second flag.

You seem to be missing some of my points

Originally Posted by MrJengles

I have learnt from it as I've mentioned already to those that suggested the mines or leaving a couple behind. The first being something I didn't think of, although technically its more down to the SLer, if the commander thinks of it he should certainly make sure. The second being my own fault that I didn't expect the buggy / expected to have a sat track warning even if there was one. It must've moved exactly in-between the 2 lol.

As I said, the squad would have had time to run back to the flag if needed, but they got pinned down so that having the time didn't matter because they were just dieing

If they were set up like in the fourth picture I posted they would have been able to get back to the flag in time.

It was hardly my intention to "throw away tickets", but a combination of events distracting me. An (unluckily for me) perfectly timed buggy by them, and an unfortunate push that needed to stop when the squad saw the enemy heading them off resulted in the mess. Next time I also need to leave a couple / few people and ask about mines.

Chess

Originally Posted by Crux

Except it really isn't. Your move was a blunder - it was exchanging a rook for a couple of pawns. Look, you tried to do something hoping the enemy wouldn't notice. You were the chess player sitting there hoping that his opponent doesn't notice that his knight is completely unguarded and can be taken safely by that bishop across the board.

The alternative move is like pushing that supported pawn into the middle of the board. There's no trick to it. You're not relying on someone not noticing a very easily noticed thing for success. It is just good positional play.

Except that it wasn't due to lack of understanding the situation

which is why the thread was started: 2 people enquired on my decision and I explained. Having constructive feedback I've also learnt from the "blunder", which by the way, they asked me about before it went awry so it was not because it went wrong, but because they wanted to know what value I saw in the tactical move even though we both knew the threat.

I was the chess player moving a bishop that checked the king (Junkyard) seeing that most likely a piece would be moved in between the check and cancel it out. That piece then being removed from a position of greater threat. Unfortunately the chess analogy stops there as in real time they saw this earlier than expected and made things worse for me, as cannot be done in chess due to turns. Had my squad stopped earlier, or I seen this and stopped them myself, it would have prevented the problem and, again, they would still be near Power for that buggy...

There was no pawn, there was also no supporting factor. My forces were divided and could not support each other properly at that range, it's the way the flags are laid out.

Alternative

Originally Posted by Crux

You could have been patient, sent a buggy around back and not sacrificed so much for so little. There was time to do a lot of things.

Originally Posted by MrJengles

As for the buggy option I can't remember whether there was even a buggy available, probably, but that option actually takes longer as the squad has to go get the buggy (and only 3 could use it but then that links with [leaving some behind]) and then drive it either around the entire map or through the entire enemy team. Due to tickets there was not enough time for this to be effective and, therefore, there was no way to get a squad to the back other than to push to the flag and assess the situation as they progressed. I had every intention of ordering them back and never capping Junkyard as the most likely scenario, unless the other team didn't notice a thing XD

It was me playing the round and the tickets were I think around about 30 - 40 ish but I don't properly remember now. Anyway, the time it takes for people to run back to the uncap, get the buggy, drive that distance, get out and only then have the enemy chase you and so relieve pressure is a hell of a lot longer than the mere seconds it took when they saw the squad going for the barge. If it'd taken just a few seconds more the squad would have pulled it off too. Or could have stopped before the barge. Man I am repeating myself soo much to show these points. Apologies for the long windedness, it's taking a lot to get the same points accross, I'm as bad as you, Crux, on your "rethinking BF2142" tactics thread XD

Understanding Again

Originally Posted by Crux

So I don't think you're really getting the whole time/space thing. You use time and space to your advantage to create situations in which you can take the tickets needed for victory. Sometimes you want a slow-paced exchange. Sometimes a frantic high-paced exchange is to your advantage. Sometimes you want people engaging from a distance - other times in close. Sometimes you want to create space within the enemy's forces - or take actions which take time away from them in the form of making them take longer to do something which would normally be fast.

It isn't always just about tickets. It is about doing things which create tactical and strategic advantages so you can either outkill the enemy, or get more ticket bleed than them while being at least neutral on kills.

No, I entirely understand that, I suppose you're thinking of it more as, do those things so that you can achieve the goal of reducing tickets. Whereas I'm think of it as my main goal being to reduce the enemy tickets and looking for the best ways to do this: including the options of "high-paced exchange[s]", "engaging from a distance", "creat[ing] space within the enemy's forces" and other examples. I prefer this outlook so as not to lose sight of the simple goal of the game, and getting lost in realism of not wanting to give up ground or hold particular high ground; when really it is only flags (including armor and spawning location advantages) and tickets that matter. Of course there are some realistic places where the highground and such make a difference, but they are not my goal, they are a means of achieving my goal if they happen to help. In my instance it was about relieving pressure as we already both agreed:

Originally Posted by Crux

In this instance, you have pressure at power. Pressure is a result of low time to contact with the enemy (beacons in forward positions or enemy squad leaders with enemy soldiers spawning in on them), and low space (both geographical distance and sight-lines. You pulled the enemy forces away in a direction that didn't create any significance or time for your forces at Power. Moving to cover the barge, they could quickly and easily put fire back onto power. They could easily move back and hit power within moments.

If you had sent a buggy with a SL in it around to the back side of Junk, you force them to respond in an entirely different manner. Now they have to relocate to a position in which they cannot quickly put fire onto Power. Likewise they can't quickly move back. It creates time and space in which you still have bleed. You don't expose Eastern. It completely changes that dynamic. Now they can't pin your forces down while taking your back flag. You are in effect pinning their forces away. You are making them fight over a non-critical location - it is critical to them but not to you. Now you're fighting on your terms, and you're not relying on someone not noticing in order to pull it off

Ah, now I get you. I said that I did succeed in moving their forces, although it gave me no extra space, it was not space I needed quite so badly as a drawn out exchange was fine, it was the push I did not like. Even with the buggy, only 1 squad falls back to deal with them and the rest would have continued the exchange and I would have garnered no more space. The extra distance for the enemy squad dealing with mine on the barge or behind Junkyard is only slight. What you miss is that my intention was to only move across the barge to be noticed, and once noticed, fall back to the situation I described after point 4 in the first post. Going back to the chess analogy, keeping the king (Junkyard) in check, because even the worst commander would be entirely aware that if his squad leaves then I can push forward yet again. Thus, I am pinning down that squad and they cannot "quickly and easily put fire back onto power".

The tactic is infact very similar to yours in that it pins down the enemy in a different position, thus achieving the same goal. The difference is that yours takes longer to implement, and leaves a few people stranded on the map, although losing only a few would not be terrible. Mine leaves people close to Eastern ready to fall back, but to make sure the tactic worked quickly I had to cross the barge which was a potentially very hazardess thing to do, as it turned out. My plan was that if I was spotted sooner, as a good CO or very good SLer would do, then I would assume the defense across the barge without pushing at all. This is just another way to put things I already said and perhaps did not make clear having misunderstood you:

Originally Posted by MrJengles

There was no way to get a squad to the back other than to push to the flag and assess the situation as they progressed. I had every intention of ordering them back and never capping Junkyard as the most likely scenario, unless the other team didn't notice a thing XD

Perhaps now there can be some peace between us

**Crux** · 05-29-2009, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by MrJengles

You seem to be missing some of my points

No, you're just confusing my disagreement with misunderstanding.

It was hardly my intention to "throw away tickets", but a combination of events distracting me.

I didn't say anywhere that was your intention.

An (unluckily for me) perfectly timed buggy by them, and an unfortunate push that needed to stop when the squad saw the enemy heading them off resulted in the mess.

Unlucky and unfortunate eh?

I was the chess player moving a bishop that checked the king (Junkyard) seeing that most likely a piece would be moved in between the check and cancel it out.

I'm sorry, but no. You pinned your own forces. That is NOT the same as putting the enemy in check. You basically put a section of your team into a natural ambush and got them trapped there, leaving yourself unable to defend Eastern. The only reason I keep replying to this bloody thread is because you keep acting like this was the right move. It just wasn't. It was a mistake, and yet you keep trying to draw analogies that make it seem otherwise.

It wasn't bad luck that turned things for a while there. It wasn't misfortune they managed to somehow notice that push with sattrack, UAV, IDS and people's ability to see. It would have been lucky if they hadn't been noticed. I prefer not to rely on luck. Maybe that's just a difference in philosophies.

The tactic is infact very similar to yours in that it pins down the enemy in a different position, thus achieving the same goal.

Honestly, this is where I give up. There are similarities, yes. But I've spent two long posts now explaining that while the strategic objective was the same (to relieve pressure), the tactical means of doing so was significantly different. Namely, one has a much, much, much higher probability of success. Your tactic only pinned down your own men.

It's clear you're determined to view this as some great idea that was just unlucky not to work. I disagree strongly and have tried to explain an alternative that was significantly stronger. At this point there's just no sense going back and forth in circles any longer. Good luck.

**MrJengles** · 05-29-2009, 01:25 PM

Mmm, well at least we shall agree to disagree then. Seeing as how I explained the uselessness of attempting a buggy involved alternative due to time, and as proof of that, their team did that exact same thing and bleed was on the team with the highest amount of tickets, PAC, therefore meaning that it was on for the longest amount of time possible...and they still did not win because at that point it was death bleed that was more important. Thus I never wanted to take Junkyard.

And again, you say I would be lucky if I had not been noticed, and for yet another time I tell you that was the point, I wanted to be. I draw on the analogy because it is a common move to check a king with the only intent of pinning a piece between the 2, especially near the end of a game where it may be one of the last of their pieces rendering you free to do what you want (obviously better if you ended up with more pieces / used a crappy one to achieve the move). Since the reason I was stopped was due to time, chess cannot account for that in any analogy.

Also, just because it is a natural ambush, you do realise people cross it all the time and i've already agreed it was simply a badly timed push across, which could have also stayed at the edge of my side of the barge and achieved the same goal, not ending in a trap. But I made the order before the enemy headed the squad off (obviously) to make 100% sure I would be seen if I hadn't been while lurking around at my side of the barge. Not stopping at the edge when they did move to intercept, as I meant to, was my fault, and the Slers, although I'm sure there are pleanty of highly skilled TG members that have had this happen to them at one time or another on that exact barge, while you act as if it was a completely rare and stupid decision and that I made a bad choice. Which, I don't see anyone else doing, the most has been suggestions on constructive alternatives to which I replied. Two points I've accepted (mines and leaving people behind) and one I disagree with (the buggy), leaving me at complete odds with you. I argue it was the right thing to do because there was no alternative that would have worked in time, and mine only failed due to not stopping when it should.

Good decisions ending badly can be seen regularily on TG, but let's put it simply, you think I made a bad decision instead, anyone else?

**Cavall** · 05-29-2009, 08:51 PM

Good idea, poor execution. In this situation it makes sense to try and lessen the pressure on Power since the protracted combat will not likely end in your favor -- enemy has more troops in that area, regardless of losses it is very likely that they will eventually capture the flag -- but there were a few things going against you. First, was initiative: the squad + one at Eastern had been defending for the last little while wheras the enemy has been assaulting for the last little while; the enemy's forces were keen wheras yours needed to shift their mental focus from defend to attack which causes them (regardless of the skill of whoever is in the squad) to be vulnerable until they make that switch. Second, the SL at Eastern should have called for an IDS to be placed (if not in place already), MM's put down and perhaps APM's if available, to guard the flag in their absence and alert the squad that they need to fall back and defend. Preferably the one-man-squad and a squadmember of the full squad (the engineer) should have stayed to keep enemies busy while the rest of the squad falls back -- yes this would leave the rest of the squad one down in numbers but as you are pressuring and not actually attacking this is fine. The next team-wide fault was failing to spot the enemy buggy as it ran for Eastern -- giving the squad that was 'pressuring' the heads up with enough time to book it back to the flag. Lastly, the numbers of the 'pressurers'. You need much fewer soldiers to pressure an area than you do to attack it, an area can be effectively pressured by two or three soldiers. Most experienced players when they hear 'multiple contacts, northside' or something similar, they run over there thinking its a squad coming in; ideally the SL should have stayed on the Eastern side of the barge and sent a fireteam to harrass the Junkyard flag -- the tickets you might lose by the fireteam are much fewer than those your team would have lost had that enemy squad intercepting your fireteam was able to co-ordinate an attack with other squads on Power. This would have allowed the squad to fufill your order while being capable of defending Eastern as well. You made the right call, but as the saying goes: no strategy survives contact with the enemy.

**Crux** · 05-30-2009, 09:06 AM

I'm going to make one last attempt, purely because there's a chance you'll be commanding when I'm playing some time and I'd really love for you to learn

Originally Posted by MrJengles

Seeing as how I explained the uselessness of attempting a buggy involved alternative due to time

Except you didn't. You, as the commander, didn't even know if there was a buggy available. That is to say you weren't paying attention to the assets you had to use. That's just sloppy, and you can't use your own lack of attention as justification for why something wasn't workable. You also pullled some rubbish line about only being able to fit three people in the buggy. You command and yet you don't understand the concept of a SL having his people hold spawn and then spawning on him when he reaches his destination? Or are we ignoring that fact to support our arguments and hoping nobody else will notice?

and as proof of that, their team did that exact same thing and bleed was on the team with the highest amount of tickets, PAC, therefore meaning that it was on for the longest amount of time possible...and they still did not win because at that point it was death bleed that was more important.

That isn't proof of anything. Death bleed was the deciding factor purely because they had so few tickets left relatively. It doesn't mean you didn't make a mistake. All it proves is that your mistake happened too late in the round to cost you the victory.

And again, you say I would be lucky if I had not been noticed, and for yet another time I tell you that was the point, I wanted to be. I draw on the analogy because it is a common move to check a king with the only intent of pinning a piece between the 2, especially near the end of a game where it may be one of the last of their pieces rendering you free to do what you want (obviously better if you ended up with more pieces / used a crappy one to achieve the move). Since the reason I was stopped was due to time, chess cannot account for that in any analogy.

And this is the section where I get truly worried. The barge move doesn't and never will pin the enemy' forces. If you cross the barge the way the enemy is laid out they will envelope and destroy your forces every time. If you don't cross the barge then they don't even need to respond. It's literally a useless move because there is no positive outcome for you here. It's just a degree of how MUCH it hurts your team.

Also, just because it is a natural ambush, you do realise people cross it all the time

Nobody smart crosses the barge when the entire enemy team is spawning in at Junkyard. It's just throwing tickets away and exposing your team elsewhere.

which could have also stayed at the edge of my side of the barge and achieved the same goal, not ending in a trap.

Except it doesn't achieve any goal. If you don't cross the barge you cannot put fire on or pressure junkyard in any way. There is a huge building blocking sightlines. Basically any forces at Junkyard can ignore you and suffer no consequences. If you cross the barge you get your own forces pinned, weaken your defenses and generally afford the enemy an opportunity without really costing them any meaningful pressure on Power. The only upside here happens if the enemy commander or squad leaders are complete and utter idiots. Essentially this is a mistake that only works if the enemy makes an even bigger mistake. That's not what I call good strategy.

I argue it was the right thing to do because there was no alternative that would have worked in time, and mine only failed due to not stopping when it should.

But you don't know if it would have worked in time because you don't even know if there was a buggy available. Secondly, even if you had to wait for a buggy, you still don't know. You don't know how long the folks at Power could hold on. From your account your team was up on tickets and holding 2 of the 3 flags. The only way you 'run out of time' here is if you win too quickly for your buggy rush to take effect. Except we've established that your opponent made the reverse buggy rush, took the flag and made it a closer game. So clearly there WAS time.

Good decisions ending badly can be seen regularily on TG, but let's put it simply, you think I made a bad decision instead, anyone else?

Good decisions don't end badly. Good decisions end well. Poor decisions end badly. The people who come to excel at this game don't confuse that fact.

And on that note, I'm done

**Cavall** · 05-30-2009, 11:58 AM

Not to nit-pick or antagonize, but I'd say Crux's last line is a matter of semantics. A good decision implemented at the wrong time CAN end badly, just as a poor decision implemented at the right time can work well. I often make the mistake of making 'success' the judge of propper decisions, but just because something doesn't work --or even backfires-- doesn't mean the decision was tactically incorrect or flawed. Besides, so long as victory is had, does it really matter the decisions that lead to it? That victory can never be re-done, the tactics used will never be guaranteed to work again, and the hundreds of factors that lead to your victory will be different the next time, so why argue about it?

**MrJengles** · 05-30-2009, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by Crux

You, as the commander, didn't even know if there was a buggy available. That is to say you weren't paying attention to the assets you had to use. That's just sloppy, and you can't use your own lack of attention as justification for why something wasn't workable. You also pullled some rubbish line about only being able to fit three people in the buggy. You command and yet you don't understand the concept of a SL having his people hold spawn and then spawning on him when he reaches his destination? Or are we ignoring that fact to support our arguments and hoping nobody else will notice?

You're becoming rather offensive now Crux, although it did make me laugh. You clearly are not reading what I say closely enough, be warned that I am very precise in what I say (not that I can't make a mistake). I said that: "I can't remember whether there was even a buggy available, probably". That is to say I do not have the best memory in the world and cannot remember every fine detail of some random match played 10 days before my answer to your quiery. Secondly, I am entirely aware of the buggy rush tactic and yet you fail to grasp that it requires people to be dead in the first place. My squad on Eastern was perfectly alive and well, and under no fire as stated in my first post. It is, as I am aware, also against the rules to commit suicide for this tactic. Please do not accuse me of "sloppy" commanding when you simply need to read more carefully.

Originally Posted by Crux

The barge move doesn't and never will pin the enemy' forces. If you cross the barge the way the enemy is laid out they will envelope and destroy your forces every time.

[...] it doesn't achieve any goal. If you don't cross the barge you cannot put fire on or pressure junkyard in any way. There is a huge building blocking sightlines. Basically any forces at Junkyard can ignore you and suffer no consequences. If you cross the barge you get your own forces pinned, weaken your defenses and generally afford the enemy an opportunity without really costing them any meaningful pressure on Power.

Ah, I see the point there Crux, and it would be true if my intention were to push across the barge and head on to the flag but, as stated many times, my intention was to fall back when I got noticed and that is where you have gone wrong. If I start to cross and the enemy commander is watching very carefully, I will get what, 2 - 3 people on the barge before he sends an order? More and he's too late, less and it may not be a push. So then the enemy start to fall back, and, the SLer or myself, seeing that they are being cut off, gets the squad to simply hop back onto their side rather than try to make it all the way across the barge. As you pointed out, the building restricts the line of sight so they are safe again.

So what then? You think the commander orders the squad back to Power and little time is used? Well it will take some time for them to run up there and run back down but ok. However, the PAC squad simply repeats this, getting onto the barge, and back come the enemy before they really got to shoot at anything, down at Power. So then this just becomes a pointless cycle...

Most commanders are not 8 year olds and won't send squads back and forth, they'll simply block the route by leaving a squad at the other side of the barge. Now, the odd pot shot will be taken back and forth, no it isn't putting fire on Junkyard really, but it is pinning them there because they know what happens if they leave. There are also pleanty of times that opposing squads are on either side of the barge on this map. Neither push; but they still sit there until something else changes.

Originally Posted by Crux

Nobody smart crosses the barge when the entire enemy team is spawning in at Junkyard. It's just throwing tickets away and exposing your team elsewhere.

Please do not insult my intelligence Crux. The enemy were not spawning on the flag as I saw no dots running down constantly, if that had been the case it would also make the pressure on Power be in waves, which are a little less of a threat. Admittably not something I pointed out in writing but I hardly expected to go into so much detail and thought most would assume it from my diagram otherwise I would have moved the arrows' start points back to the flag at Junk. Also, most people would assume this case as the tactic of hiding behind those areas and people spawning on the SLer has been seen many times. Furthermore, you yourself already understood that to be the case:

Originally Posted by Crux

Pressure is a result of low time to contact with the enemy (beacons in forward positions or enemy squad leaders with enemy soldiers spawning in on them)

Originally Posted by Crux

But you don't know if it would have worked in time because you don't even know if there was a buggy available. Secondly, even if you had to wait for a buggy, you still don't know. You don't know how long the folks at Power could hold on. From your account your team was up on tickets and holding 2 of the 3 flags. The only way you 'run out of time' here is if you win too quickly for your buggy rush to take effect. Except we've established that your opponent made the reverse buggy rush, took the flag and made it a closer game. So clearly there WAS time.

No I knew at the time. I thought of the barge idea and then thought of the buggy, but then taking the tickets into account, had really already decided on the barge before taking a glance for the buggy out of curiosity a few seconds later. It either wasn't there and so wasn't an option anyway, or I just didn't change my mind. It was hardly the most important moment of the match where I looked for a grey buggy shaped object in my UCB on a map and then went back to my plan, so hardly surprising I don't remember whether it was there since at the time my thoughts would have been "it's irrelevant anyway".

No we don't know Crux, so don't use not knowing whether Power would be taken or not as an argument that it might not have been because it is exactly just as reasonable to say it might have been. Due to the opponents number advantage infact making it more likely and the disastrous ticket loss that would follow for me it was, however, best to do something about it. The way I run out of time is either I win, or they do...you missed them out Crux.

And yes, they did have time to take my flag, and had flag bleed on the side with more tickets, removing it from the side with less tickets. Assuming the difference in death bleed negligable, simple maths says that makes the match last longer. Even with the match lasting longer, they didn't have enough time to create a win and their buggy rush came too late in the game to make enough of a difference. That was also after people spawned in at their UCB to take their buggy. It would have taken time for the squad on Eastern to go get a buggy -and with less time in the match anyway- then try to make a difference by heading to Junkyard and hopefully relieving pressure on Power. Where, by that time, it could be in quite a bit of trouble since in this case my barge push did not take place and hasn't resulted in their entire force pulling back - although my aim was just for one squad at least, it doesn't stop the reality being that they all did, and that they would have had no reason to without the barge push. This makes it much more likely that I would have lost Junkyard.

Originally Posted by Crux

Good decisions don't end badly. Good decisions end well. Poor decisions end badly. The people who come to excel at this game don't confuse that fact.

Originally Posted by Cavall

Not to nit-pick or antagonize, but I'd say Crux's last line is a matter of semantics. A good decision implemented at the wrong time CAN end badly, just as a poor decision implemented at the right time can work well. I often make the mistake of making 'success' the judge of propper decisions, but just because something doesn't work --or even backfires-- doesn't mean the decision was tactically incorrect or flawed.

Thank you Cavall. There are times in even real warfare that a good decision ends badly or vice versa. Sometimes there are factors that could not possibly be accounted for, such as a sudden and unexpected change in the weather (ie even the forecast didn't help) or in game, a sat track that happens to end seconds before somone spawns and takes a buggy, leaving you unaware for the longest amount of time before the next sat track. It can even be related to real life where sometimes the right thing to do, still ends badly. Or how about when a lower rank disobeys an officer in real life, and yet, due to that, saves peoples lives. While what was done was the right thing to do, he most likely still loses all rank or completely leaves the forces as a punishment for disobeying orders. Again, that decision taken by someone was the right thing, as it must be done to ensure other people obey orders by expecting consequences if they don't. However, it still ends badly as the person considered a hero loses his job or starts from the bottom again.

It seemed almost as if you didn't understand that at all, but if you do, then just because this is about a game doesn't stop there being times that the same idea can apply. Especially when you play with a group of people trying to make it as realistic as possible.

**LordKelvin** · 05-30-2009, 10:50 PM

I think both of you need to light up a little grass and relax.

I don't advocate drugs, but I think the argument here is a bit too heated over a round that, in the grand scheme of things, isn't that big a deal.

Lastly, I just want to say, with all due respect, Mr. Jengles, is that if you post a thread asking for comments on a decision you made, don't take the advice offered defensively, but instead incorporate it into your battle plan next time. If you're here to chest-pound your own plan, that's fine, but don't ask for advice then. If you do want advice, then be accepting of it and see how you can benefit from it, instead of arguing with the person trying to help you.

That is all.

**MrJengles** · 05-31-2009, 01:44 AM

Mmm, I've rather had enough of it too. I accepted some of the advice given already as I found them useful things. I just don't believe the other tactic to have been a better one, and argued that case. I cannot very well incorporate an entirely different plan unless I see why it's better, or convinced why it is; but I am unconvinced on this. I accepted that there was more I could do but I still believe it to have been the right move, that's why there is an arguement and not because I cannot take constructive criticism.

**Dorb** · 05-31-2009, 07:01 PM

So I feel bad for kinda starting this whole topic over TS when it happened. Tru7elly we were doing fine at Power. I was SLing on this map and saw no reason to attack. We were doing fine.

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