TG-3rd and Community. AKA "Why We Lock Squads"

[austforbeer]

Originally Posted by daithi1

Some peoples attitudes in this thread really makes me feel annoyed.

WHy in the name of god does it have a rating of 1 star I mean ffs Crux comes out explains things that had been partially unexplained. He could have left it, but he didn't. Even if you don't agree with what is being said (why?) you still have to have respect for him coming out and talking about a somewhat touchy subject.

As for balance issues I've seen full 3rd squads being pummelled into the ground, yes it does happen they are human. Even if they've made the teams unbalanced the 3rd IMO are the best people to recognize this and try and rectify it.

Sorry I'm just annoyed people could take a stance against what is being said here, maybe I'm just as bad on the other extreme but 1 star...

Just playing devil's advocate here but just explaining why you're doing something doesn't mean people are going to be OK with it.

One thing I didn't mention before about locking a squad is if you're allowed to do the exact same thing there's no reason for you to get upset if someone else is doing it. If only TG people were allowed then I would understand but otherwise there should be nothing wrong with it.

[Arithea]

Originally Posted by austforbeer

Just playing devil's advocate here but just explaining why you're doing something doesn't mean people are going to be OK with it.

You're right, austforbeer. TG is very much a melting pot, as we can clearly see in the differing opinions here. The only thing we can do is try our best to be sure we're operating by the rules and spirit of our community.

To everyone: I'd like to highlight a different point in Crux's original posting for a moment. We're here to contribute, guys. If there are ways in which we can do more, please, let us know. Send one of us a PM--any one of us--and we'll pass it on to the rest. Catch us on TeamSpeak. Talk to us. We're here to help.

[Augustus Gloop]

You need to spread some rep around before giving it to austforbeer again.

Great points, and it's clear that the 3rd can't sit on its laurels, we need to keep looking for more ways to help improve the community. Same with the rest of TG. We have such a great thing going, it's tempting to sit back and enjoy it. Instead, find new ways to make it better.

[Razcsak]

Originally Posted by MDFubar

Gladly, they are welcomed on our server so that we may learn and grow. Not to mention be challenged to bring our skill leve to a higher ground, and make some new "teamwork" oriented friends.

Hell yes. When the Monkeygamer folks show up en masse on the other team, we have serious problems making any headway on any flags. And that's good.

[Vortex421]

I spoke with Crux about this, and I'm going to briefly touch on a point since Gloop brought up the word "community".

I believe in the idea behind a community of people - that you have people from all walks of life who have specialties in different areas. Though diverse, the community is drawn together by a common theme or goal or idea. For TacticalGamer, that theme/goal/idea is promoting teamwork, mature gameplay, and working to improve and better yourself and your peers. But a community is also a gathering of friends who come together to do what they all love to do.

Now, I've formed many squads and played in many squads. I've made friendships and acquaintences within the ranks of the TG family. Some of you know me, some like me, some hate me. But of all the IHSes that I have gotten to know and play with, I have found the 3rd to be the hardest and most elusive to do this with. There are exceptions to this - Zhohar is the most notable that I know of.

Now, I'm not saying that the 3rd should not better themselves or make themselves more prepared for competition play. Quite the contrary, I'm all for having a dedicated group represent TG and spread the TG gospel to the corners of the internet. But if all you do is train and all you do is prepare for competition, when are you spending time within the community and getting to know those who are here - and vice versa? Yes, there are the forums, but the forums tell the side of the story of all of us when we are not online fighting with or against each other. Instead, I find (for me) that the most conclusive way to get to know other members of the community is to play with them, to hear their voices on the battlefield, either in squad-chat or in TS. There's a lot of wit and humor to be had, a lot of insight and wisdom to be gained, and sometimes it can be fun taunting an enemy or congratulating a friend. (Or, in my case, taunting Arithea after blowing up her APCs and then finding myself in the hot seat the following round while she exacts revenge on me.)

Here's my two cents - there are times when solidarity is great, when having that squad made up almost solely of 3rd members is fantastic and awesome. But maybe every now and again, form your own squads or join squads that are already formed. This way you get to meet with and play with others in the community, and let the community get to know you not just as the 3rd but as individual members - as Crux and Eroak and Gloop and Arithea and Aruncado and Zhohar and so on.

I have nothing but respect and admiration for all members of the 3rd, no matter how many times they kill me or how many times I kill them. All I'm interested in, and all that concerns me, is keeping the spirit of the community alive.

Thanks for hearing me out!

[Uranium - 235]

Originally Posted by Crux

So by your definition we're stacking any time 2 or more of us play on the same team. Does this apply to all other IHSs as well, or just the 3rd? Does the 11th get to play on the same team ever? Or will you save that for the freaking free server the 3rd donated to you guys for a month?

This is crossing into thread recycle territory, whereupon we all acknowledged that the imbalance of TG on the teams generally leads to extremely one-sided games. In your case, as you admitted and I acknowledged, it's easier to tip the scales.

Originally Posted by Crux

But you've already said just that. You've asked if we belong on the TG server. Think about it.

I was referring more to the aggressive 'play like this is a clan match' that you said you do when you're locking teams. Someone mentioned how laughable it is to get 'scrim practice' on a pub server. That's what I meant.

Hell yes. When the Monkeygamer folks show up en masse on the other team, we have serious problems making any headway on any flags. And that's good.

Keep things in perspective. It's good for YOU, maybe, but what about the other 90% of the server population? How long will it be until people start saying "This is lame" and "**** this" and start leaving en masse?

[MDFubar]

Originally Posted by Uranium - 235

Keep things in perspective. It's good for YOU, maybe, but what about the other 90% of the server population? How long will it be until people start saying "This is lame" and "**** this" and start leaving en masse?

Those people obviously do not want to better themsleves nor expand thier game play, but simply have things handed to them on a silver platter and be able to " I did great tonight!".

And to this day, more and more people are joing the server and boasting how much they enjoy the spirit and dedication to teamwork on a daily basis. I see more people on the server, not less.
If you want an easy battle, go pub raiding......if you want to be challenged, then play the TG server!

[Uranium - 235]

Originally Posted by MDFubar

Those people obviously do not want to better themsleves nor expand thier game play, but simply have things handed to them on a silver platter and be able to " I did great tonight!".

So next time I play an RTS game with "NOOBS WELCOME" and then utterly crush them while making fun of how pathetic they are, or maybe a "FFA SERVER" where I'm secretly teaming up with someone else to crush the entire server, it's perfectly okay, because I'm just 'bettering them'?

(This is tangential, pretty far removed from the 3rd)

Maybe we should allow people to use aimbots and cheats too because it 'ups the challenge'.

Newsflash - they don't say "I DID GREAT TONIGHT!". Know why? Because they don't take games super-seriously like competitive teams do, where the only thing that's important to them is a worthless number on a meaningless roster on some obscure website, so they can tell everyone else how much better then them they are.

And to this day, more and more people are joing the server and boasting how much they enjoy the spirit and dedication to teamwork on a daily basis. I see more people on the server, not less.
If you want an easy battle, go pub raiding......if you want to be challenged, then play the TG server!

Yeah, because teams are getting stacked against every day. Right. Let me identify what you said that highlights where you miss the point.

they enjoy the spirit and dedication to teamwork on a daily basis

Where does that say "We got totally stacked against and lost every round 230-0, it was the BEST TIME OF MY LIFE!!!!!!"

"I couldn't compete against any of the other players and ended up staring at the sky calling for a medic every 30 seconds! A++++ SERVER WOULD PLAY ON AGAIN!"

The difference is that you find the teamwork on BOTH teams, even losing ones, so that element is present all the time. That's what caught me. It's something that isn't in other server. However, I didn't join, nor did I really give a damn about TG because it had better players. If the server skill level dropped to average levels, it wouldn't make me stop playing on it. If the teamwork did, I WOULD stop playing on it.

If I cared so much about 'being better' and talking about on forums how I'm right because I was totally in CAL-P and they weren't, I'd go join a competitive game with a real ladder where I can get smeared by *REAL* professionals. Instead, I play 2142 because it's FUN.

Here's some food for thought. I work 12-14 hours a day busting my ass on a flightline fixing F-15s. I come home and have only a few hours to do some things before sleep. I haven't had two consecutive days off (or more than one day off in a 7-day span, for that matter) since December, when I took leave. This means I don't have time to 'better myself' and dedicate my life to obsessing over how skilled I am.

Are you suggesting I should quit TG then?

Here's my final note on this: "Competitive gaming - ruining games since 1997."

If you want to be competitive, fine. Whatever. But the problems always arise and always exist in two places - where 'pub' players and 'competitive' players meet, and when it comes to developer feedback, because both want the game going in two different directions (though that's not a problem because I don't think DICE has ever listened to their community).

[Crux]

Originally Posted by Uranium - 235

I was referring more to the aggressive 'play like this is a clan match' that you said you do when you're locking teams.

Please don't put words in my mouth. Using the server to practice squad tactics and teamwork is not the same thing as 'playing like it is a clan match.' Indeed to even talk of doing so is laughable for two reasons:
1) Conquest play is completely different from clan matches. The things we work on in conquest play are soldier spacings, squad roles, reviving order etc.
2) When bring our TG server-style play to clan matches, not the other way around

Keep things in perspective. It's good for YOU, maybe, but what about the other 90% of the server population? How long will it be until people start saying "This is lame" and "**** this" and start leaving en masse?

Last I checked the game was called "Battlefield 2142" not "Communism 2142". It is the responsibility of everyone to play in a mature, team-oriented fashion. It isn't everyone's responsibility to ensure a winning ticket count of 10 or less.

Even two very evenly matched teams can have blowout rounds. All it takes is a happy series of coincidences, a little bad luck. Does this mean we should freak out and jumble the teams around because one team won by 100 tickets? God no. If there are a couple of rounds of 150+ ticket beat-downs in a row, then it is time to talk about team balancing. But even one team losing 3, 4 times in a row isn't a big drama if there are close rounds in there. God knows I've lost plenty of rounds in my time playing 2142. I don't cry 'stacked teams' every time it happens. I make a squad, give some orders and see what I can do to turn things around.

You also never answered this question:

So by your definition we're stacking any time 2 or more of us play on the same team. Does this apply to all other IHSs as well, or just the 3rd? Does the 11th get to play on the same team ever?

[Crux]

Originally Posted by Uranium - 235

So next time I play an RTS game with "NOOBS WELCOME" and then utterly crush them while making fun of how pathetic they are, or maybe a "FFA SERVER" where I'm secretly teaming up with someone else to crush the entire server, it's perfectly okay, because I'm just 'bettering them'?

Dude, this has absolutely zero bearing on what takes place here at TG. You know it. I know. Everyone knows it. So why are you bringing it up as though it is somehow relevant?

Maybe we should allow people to use aimbots and cheats too because it 'ups the challenge'.

How does that have any bearing to TG? Have you not read the primer?

Newsflash - they don't say "I DID GREAT TONIGHT!". Know why? Because they don't take **** super-seriously like competitive teams do. You know, the people I used to ban for breaking the rules on my Natural Selection server, who would then go get their whole clan to smurf the server and try to crash it.

Perhaps it might be helpful if you stopped trying to define TG by your previous server admining experiences. Clearly you were not an admin for a server here at TG. Your prior experience does not translate into a neat package that makes you an authority on all things related to server admining. That much is painfully clear here.

The point of TG is mature, teamwork oriented play. Sometimes this will result in uneven rounds when one team does not perform well. We've all been on winning teams, we've all been on losing teams. Losing, even by a large margin, is not indicative of team stacking. It also isn't a life changing drama. On TG these things have a way of working themselves out.

But dear god please stop trying to turn this into a happy go-lucky-place where every round is hotly contested and anyone showing an ounce of ability greater than that of their peers needs to either hide that ability or play elsewhere. That's NOT what TG is about. And god knows if it ever became that way most of us would leave.

[Eroak]

Yeasterday and today we have near full squads of 3rd and lost by over a 100 tickets. about 5 rounds out of the 2 days. It isn't team stacking unless you find all the TG and IHS people on oen side.

[Uranium - 235]

Originally Posted by Crux

Dude, this has absolutely zero bearing on what takes place here at TG. You know it. I know. Everyone knows it. So why are you bringing it up as though it is somehow relevant?

I'm tired of repeating myself.

His response was that any form of landslide stack is okay because it means the losing team is bettering themselves. This doesn't mean just on TG, or just on 2142. What he said was rather a mind-numbingly dumb thing to say, and I explained why.

Even REAL sports have a draft for a reason - because the games would be dull and pathetic if every season, the same team won over and over because they have the same kick-ass players. Why do you think the worst team in the NFL has the first-round draft choice?

So by your definition we're stacking any time 2 or more of us play on the same team. Does this apply to all other IHSs as well, or just the 3rd? Does the 11th get to play on the same team ever?

A stack of any kind is when you end up with a significant skill imbalance. There could be pubbies that are better than anyone with a |TG| tag. The other team of 'randoms' could be better than the other.

The stack occurs like this, as I said in like, my FIRST POST IN THIS THREAD. People on the losing team start to try to join the winning team. When the people start leaving, the losing team gets worse, and they start to quit. Pretty soon, the losing team is getting and losing players every 15 seconds, while the winning team is staying in solid teams, which now compromises the spirit of the game.

If there is no skill imbalance, there's no stack. Once again, I'm tired of repeating myself. I said what is widely recognized - the 3rd has some great top-notch players. For this reason, it's a LOT easier to tip the scales in your favor with a stack on the team with the 3rd on it. Is this your fault? No. But it *IS* your problem, not everyone elses. Fubar implied that it was the problem of the losing team for not being good enough, and that they should be happy to get raped over and over because they're probably getting better at the game.

Why this concept is so hard is completely beyond me.

[Arithea]

Uranium, we understand that you're trying to look out for everyone who plays on our server. Really, we do, and we respect that. However, they show their support and acceptance of the way TG as a whole--including the 3rd--plays by showing back up time and again. Some even join the TG ranks. Because we expect that maturity level from the players on our server, we assume that if they have a problem with the way we're playing, they'll speak up.

I appreciate that you're trying to stick up for those who may not have a voice here. But in the past, it has been my experience on our servers that they stick up for themselves.

[Uranium - 235]

Originally Posted by Arithea

However, they show their support and acceptance of the way TG as a whole--including the 3rd--plays by showing back up time and again.

Perhaps, but I've seen, and I know everyone here has seen the landslide abandonment scenario that I described above. So when this happens, people DO leave in droves. They may come back later when the teams are more even, but there's still people leaving rapidly.

As I said before, if there is no skill imbalance, there is no stack problem.

[Eroak]

From a admin point of view, I havn't received a PM in ages about unbalance. I play 6 out of 7 nights and I have to only turn on random about once a week.

There are rounds that cap out, there are other rounds that end up 150+ tickets. Most of the time the unbalance is from a a single event. I have watch entire rounds from freecam lately to see whats going on. I notice a eitire squad sneak behind a enemy line and the defending team can't react and it chain reacts. It's not skill, it's a blunder that caused the unbalance and about 3/4 100+ rounds end up like this. Sometimes it's becasue of a walker and the enemy team never spawns engineers. I see this personaly all the time. I run rampent on Tunis and I dont run into engineers often until 8-10 minutes into the match.

It happens and the admins do keep a eye on things. IHS themselves rarely are the root cause unless 3 or more end up on one side.