tacticalgamer 52/54 man server - Page 2

Kaboodles · 04-08-2008, 02:23 AM

The core gameplay mechanic is shooting people. It's fun. Camp Gib and the others happen to provide a higher action:downtime ratio than your sprawling vehicle map, so they tend to draw people in.

**Uranium - 235** · 04-08-2008, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaboodles

The core gameplay mechanic is shooting people. It's fun. Camp Gib and the others happen to provide a higher action:downtime ratio than your sprawling vehicle map, so they tend to draw people in.

Must... resist... Halo... comment...

**MDFubar** · 04-08-2008, 07:25 AM

Getting off topic, See this post(which I read after posting in this thread):

http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...ad-topics.html

**Crux** · 04-08-2008, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uranium - 235

That depends if you consider a coinflip to be anything but a binary choice.

A coinflip isn't a choice. It is a random determination. Playing a map like Tunis is neither a binary choice nor a random determination. There are three flags. That immediately destroys your concept of binary. There are multiple routes to each of these three flags. Since they are in no way linear, the order in which you can attack said flags is a personal choice. The means by which you attack them (on foot, in buggy, with walker.. or all three) is varied.

So we have multiple flags attackable in any order via a variety of means and a variety of attack routes... and you call that binary? Why do you blame your own lack of imagination on the game and its maps?

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I consider 'non-linear' to be more than just two choices. Most of Tunis's gameplay focuses on two specific strategic movements, generally through two very specific chokepoints. Its only saving grace is that Power Station is notoriously difficult to defend. Were it bottled up like Eastern Docks is, the game would immediately stalemate due to the lack of concrete strategic options.

As observed above, you have far more than two choices. And your mention of two choke points is frankly absurd.

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A good example is Camp Gib. You can either FAV rush through Toll Station, or you can rush the catwalk. Neither of those have a very good chance of succeeding. Nor are they very pragmatic choices. Or you can join the footzerg and hurl grenades and rockets futilely.

If this were true, then I might agree with you. However it is not. The pity is that again you blame the game and map for your own lack of knowledge and imagination.

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Still, are you going to tell me that on any typical map of Tunis, you don't find yourself in the same rut of flipping a coin over and over? More open-ended maps like Belgrade avoid the 'coin flip' by providing you many routes of access, and many places to go.

Yes, I am telling you precisely that. Because when I play Tunis it is far from a coin flip. There are so many tactical option on that map the toughest part is often choosing which one to engage in.

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I judge how well a map plays based on how 'open' it is, and how far you can reduce strategy to the lowest common denominator.

This might have more meaning if you spent more time thinking about the maps and less time complaining about them.

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Camp Gib is practically a zero-strategy map. Any success on this map, and I don't think anyone can disagree, is due to a stroke of luck.

Fallacy.

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Fall of Berlin and Tunis Harbor are just a cut above Camp Gib, as in a typical game, defensive strategy almost always can be focused into one or two very specific chokepoints.

Another fallacy.

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Fall of Berlin would benefit immensely from removal of the vehicles, at any rate (though I've wondered what a gunship to destroy them would do, given the ample infantry cover. Would be fun in the narrow canyons at any rate). Fall of Berlin could be saved by removing the vehicles and changing the 'ladder' routes to interior routes or otherwise. The vehicles just make the map unnecessarily fragtastic, and the ladder routes just complicate things immensely. They make you an extremely easy target, and if they're being watched by even just one vigilant defender, nobody will ever get through them. Tunis Harbor... I'd like to see the entire northern harbor opened up and two more flags added up there, with a few new routes to get there.

Yet all these things are unnecessary. When I attack on Fall of Berlin only about one in four times ends up in a stalemate over Crossroads. One in four. And that's with determined action from a single squad (and I'm just talking a squad that follows basic directions, not a squad of super-soldiers). Fall of Berlin can be had if you spend a little time looking at the map and understand the timing of what takes place there.

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Cerbere Landing is better than those preceeding two, as given the staggered nature of the flags, it's rather difficult to identify chokepoints, as there's a lot of ways for infantry to move around. That is to say, it's only really a crappy, linear, boring map if the defensive team manages to secure Office Ruins. Then you're pretty much riding out the map on a prayer as PAC. Cerbere would be difficult to easily improve, though if some buildings could be moved through would change it up somewhat.

Again, lack of imagination and knowledge. Office Ruins is the single most meaningless flag for both teams on that map. Not only does it not contribute to ticket bleed in any way, it only blocks off the most craptastic approach route on the entire map.

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Actually, I'd just make Pond a bit more defensible. Reposition the Rorsches so they can actually hit something instead of trees, the ground, or the sky (I'm pretty sure one is pointed into the PAC's *OWN BASE*).

It is pointed at one of the two vehicle entrances into the flag area. Pond is actually highly defensible by a single infantry squad.

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Don't tell me I'm the only one who noticed this anomaly. It's good that the server should have something for everyone (I still want Titan to pop up every two Conquest rounds or something), but it's just the popularity of what I see as the most hideously crappy, spammy maps that I don't understand. I guess from a pubby standpoint, a city map with a lot of players = a chance to get some easy kills or something, but... eh?

At a quick glance it is very easy to dismiss a lot of these maps the way you seem very eager to do so. The problem is, having identified potential problems with the maps you seemingly spend all your time complaining about them and the game, and not near enough time thinking about strategies and tactics to overcome the challenges that each map represents. At the end of the day, you spend your time how you want. But it'd probably be better for you and everyone involved if you didn't view each map in a shallow, pessimistic way and then post repeatedly as though you're the only person smart enough to notice the very problems others thought their way through months and months ago. Just saying.

**Uranium - 235** · 04-08-2008, 02:33 PM

Quote:

The pity is that again you blame the game and map for your own lack of knowledge and imagination...This might have more meaning if you spent more time thinking about the maps and less time complaining about them...Fallacy...Another fallacy...Again, lack of imagination and knowledge...you seemingly spend all your time complaining...not near enough time thinking...But it'd probably be better for you and everyone involved if you didn't view each map in a shallow, pessimistic way and then post repeatedly as though you're the only person smart enough to notice the very problems others thought their way through months and months ago.

And people complain about how *I* post? Oh I'm sure I'll get blamed for his hideously long page-consuming troll post somehow.

I was going to constructively respond, but then I noticed you not only didn't post a single comment that wasn't simply saying "LOL WRONG", but your entire post was nothing but a long-winded attempt at subtle flamebait, and you're doing nothing but talking out of your ass through half of it. Go back to the part where you called me stupid about a dozen times, because I don't think Camp Gib is the height of strategic gameplay. Yeah, sorry I insulted you on such a personal level, Crux, by implying that BF2142 was anything but a completely flawless game. I guess my complaints about rocket spam are because I lack enough brains to think about how much depth it adds to the game

So to actually add something to this post at a last-ditch attempt at communication without resorting to throwing a temper tantrum, I have to ask... if people "thought their way through these things months ago", then why exactly do I never see these 'obvious', fictional strategies that you describe? I've played 2142 on almost nothing but the TG server. My observations of these maps is based entirely on watching TG people play them. And all they do is grind into the same chokepoints, using the same tired order of doing things, responding in the same old, predictable fashion. I even know what the 3rd guys are going to do 9 times out of 10. You're going to try to sneak your squad behind the Eastern building at Toll Station and bolt through that way. Or you're going to go up the hillside approach on Berlin and rush with the SL cloaked.

Crux if you think I'm so stupid for thinking these maps are flawed, I guess everyone on the server is stupid too, because these maps degrade into the same rut nearly EVERY SINGLE TIME. They fall victim to a few very specific poor map design flaws that I've identified as to being the cause of the symptoms.

Here's a thought: maybe I'm not stupid. Maybe you're the stupid one because you think sprinting through Toll Station is some sort of glorious battle tactic passed down from Sun Tzu himself through your family for hundreds of generations. Maybe you think anything, no matter how basic, that involves a teammate somewhere near you is clearly a 'tactic', maybe even a game-winning 'strategy'! Maybe I have higher standards for what makes a game strategic than just "Well I can FAV rush one of two ways, or I can walk one of two ways. Holy crap I'm being smothered in the open-ness! I can't deal with this!"

It must be, because you think that a 25% chance of a game-crushing stalemate is acceptable. For the record, I see that about the same. But I also see about 65% of the time, the game flops between Crossroads and Ruins, back and forth, over and over, for the entire match, because there's only three routes between the two flags, one of which is the aforementioned 'ladder' routes that are suicidal if they're being defended by a guy with rockets, and I've never seen an attack over them work.

**MDFubar** · 04-08-2008, 02:45 PM

This thread seems a bit derailed.................

**Grimmfist** · 04-08-2008, 02:55 PM

I would enjoy less armor maps and more infantry based maps that are not the ones EA has as "official". In other words, new infantry maps, please, EA. I do like the fact that the present rotation has cut down mightily on the times the server crashes. Thanks admins, and whomever else is helping to figure that stuff out.

**Crux** · 04-08-2008, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uranium - 235

I was going to constructively respond, but then I noticed you not only didn't post a single comment that wasn't simply saying "LOL WRONG", but your entire post was nothing but a long-winded attempt at subtle flamebait, and you're doing nothing but talking out of your ass through half of it.

LOL WRONG!

Seriously though. I did post multiple comments that had content worth noting. If I had realized you weren't going to take two seconds to think about my extensive comments regarding Tunis and the multiplicity of tactical options available I would have saved myself the time of writing it. Or do you still consider Tunis to be a "binary" map?

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Go back to the part where you called me stupid about a dozen times, because I don't think Camp Gib is the height of strategic gameplay.

That's going to be tricky because I didn't call you stupid once, let alone a dozen times. I'm just saying you spend so much time being negative about the game and the maps. I wonder why you don't either find another game to play, or spend your time more constructively trying to become better at this one.

Quote:

So to actually add something to this post at a last-ditch attempt at communication without resorting to throwing a temper tantrum, I have to ask... if people "thought their way through these things months ago", then why exactly do I never see these 'obvious', fictional strategies that you describe?

For starters I didn't say they were obvious. I just said they existed. Secondly they are not fictional. Again for example on Berlin it is possible to consistency capture one of the front flags before the arrival of the EU walker or APC. Having accomplished this, the game changes considerably.

You don't see them because most people don't spend much time figuring it out either. But, I don't see them spending their time complaining about it. Again I didn't say they were obvious. But they are out there. Join some good Squad Leader's squads, and pay attention to what they are doing. I learned some really neat Berlin tricks that I built off from being in a squad run by either Experiment or Reader (can't remember which one it was).

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I've played 2142 on almost nothing but the TG server. My observations of these maps is based entirely on watching TG people play them. And all they do is grind into the same chokepoints, trying to rush their way through hoping they don't get shot.

The average TG player is very teamwork oriented. That doesn't make them all tactically astute. Or if they are so astute, it doesn't mean they've spent the time trying different approaches and figuring out what works. Most of the time, people do what they are comfortable with. This means doing the same thing over and over. It doesn't mean it is the best thing to do, but it feels 'safe' for them.

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Crux if you think I'm so stupid for thinking these maps are flawed, I guess everyone on the server is stupid too, because these maps degrade into the same rut nearly EVERY SINGLE TIME. They fall victim to a few very specific poor map design flaws that I've identified as to being the cause of the symptoms.

Again, I haven't called you stupid. But your continued assertions that there is only one way for certain maps to play it is simply wrong. I don't know what else to say.

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Here's a thought: maybe I'm not stupid. Maybe you're the stupid one because you think sprinting through Toll Station is some sort of glorious battle tactic passed down from Sun Tzu himself through your family for hundreds of generations. Or maybe that's just me.

Wow. So after all this you've finally turned around and called me stupid. Nice going. Some time you should try and take a cursory glance at the difference between you and I when it comes to BF2142. A simple look at playing statistics would be a good starting point. Then maybe you might revise your above statement, pull your head out of your ass and stop whining long enough to learn something. But then you haven't the slightest interest in that have you. It would get in the way of your abrasive, bitching posting style.

**Sir-Nerd** · 04-08-2008, 03:27 PM

I have played Belgrade, Cerebere landing, Camp G, and Fall of berlin so many times that i know the layout and all the routes of the map by heart. Keep the rotation the way it is. I love being able to play verdun, minks, and Sidi once in awhile.

**Jakaleel** · 04-08-2008, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir-Nerd
Keep the rotation the way it is. I love being able to play verdun, minks, and Sidi once in awhile.

Second!

**Uranium - 235** · 04-08-2008, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crux

Wow. So after all this you've finally turned around and called me stupid. Nice going. Some time you should try and take a cursory glance at the difference between you and I when it comes to BF2142. A simple look at playing statistics would be a good starting point. Then maybe you might revise your above statement, pull your head out of your ass and stop whining long enough to learn something. But then you haven't the slightest interest in that have you. It would get in the way of your abrasive, bitching posting style.

Wow. Good job trying to pretend like you DIDN'T just write a huge troll post dripping with subtle insults. Congratulations, you can be stone-deaf to your own posts and still try to pretend you're the victim.

I can replace everywhere you said I "lack knowledge", "lack imagination", and "lack thought" with "you're dumb", "you're dense", and "you're an idiot" and your post retains the exact same tone and meaning. I'm no stranger to subtlety.

That said, I'm going to work. I'm sure I'll have lots of great PMs clogging my inbox when I get back about how perfect you are and clearly this is all my fault. I'll leave you here to talk about how great you think you are by yourself, I'm sure you're very interested in hearing about your own accomplishments.

**MDFubar** · 04-08-2008, 03:54 PM

DERAILED DERAILED DERAILED ThREAD!!!! GET BACK ON TRACK GUYS!

**ionpig-A** · 04-08-2008, 04:04 PM

Sir Bacon...

...looks around for an admin

...points snout at stinky pile of flaming posts

...smells the pile of stinky flaming posts

...throws grenade at stinky flaming posts while hoping an admin does the same!

...goes back to what he was doing.

OINK!

**Jakaleel** · 04-08-2008, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDFubar
Getting off topic, See this post(which I read after posting in this thread):

http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...ad-topics.html

Quote:

This thread seems a bit derailed.................

Quote:

DERAILED DERAILED DERAILED ThREAD!!!! GET BACK ON TRACK GUYS!

SILLY DERAILED THREAD! I DEMAND THIS THREAD GET BACK ON TRACK!

(p.s. Sorry MDFubar. I couldn't resist.)

**MDFubar** · 04-08-2008, 04:53 PM

04-08-2008, 02:23 AM	#16 (permalink)
Kaboodles Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Roanoke, VA Age: 19 Posts: 81	Re: tacticalgamer 52/54 man server The core gameplay mechanic is shooting people. It's fun. Camp Gib and the others happen to provide a higher action:downtime ratio than your sprawling vehicle map, so they tend to draw people in.

04-08-2008, 07:25 AM	#18 (permalink)
MDFubar Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: New Castle, DE Age: 40 Posts: 1,588	Re: tacticalgamer 52/54 man server Getting off topic, See this post(which I read after posting in this thread): http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...ad-topics.html __________________ "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." - General George Patton Jr

04-08-2008, 02:45 PM	#21 (permalink)
MDFubar Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: New Castle, DE Age: 40 Posts: 1,588	Re: tacticalgamer 52/54 man server This thread seems a bit derailed................. __________________ "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." - General George Patton Jr

04-08-2008, 02:55 PM	#22 (permalink)
Grimmfist Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Southwest FL Posts: 417	Re: tacticalgamer 52/54 man server I would enjoy less armor maps and more infantry based maps that are not the ones EA has as "official". In other words, new infantry maps, please, EA. I do like the fact that the present rotation has cut down mightily on the times the server crashes. Thanks admins, and whomever else is helping to figure that stuff out. __________________ \|TG-21\| Grimmfist Tactical Medic New to TG? Start here - Ribbon Nominations! - Become a Supporting Member 21st Tactical Wiki - TG Admins Last edited by Grimmfist; 04-08-2008 at 03:45 PM.

04-08-2008, 03:27 PM	#24 (permalink)
Sir-Nerd Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: In the middle of North Ohio Posts: 796	Re: tacticalgamer 52/54 man server I have played Belgrade, Cerebere landing, Camp G, and Fall of berlin so many times that i know the layout and all the routes of the map by heart. Keep the rotation the way it is. I love being able to play verdun, minks, and Sidi once in awhile. __________________ Men are basically smart or dumb and lazy or ambitious. The dumb and ambitious ones are dangerous and I get rid of them. The dumb and lazy ones I give mundane duties. The smart ambitious ones I put on my staff. The smart and lazy ones I make my commanders.

04-08-2008, 03:54 PM	#27 (permalink)
MDFubar Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: New Castle, DE Age: 40 Posts: 1,588	Re: tacticalgamer 52/54 man server DERAILED DERAILED DERAILED ThREAD!!!! GET BACK ON TRACK GUYS! __________________ "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." - General George Patton Jr

04-08-2008, 04:04 PM	#28 (permalink)
ionpig-A Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Indiana Age: 36 Posts: 563	Re: tacticalgamer 52/54 man server Sir Bacon... ...looks around for an admin ...points snout at stinky pile of flaming posts ...smells the pile of stinky flaming posts ...throws grenade at stinky flaming posts while hoping an admin does the same! ...goes back to what he was doing. OINK! __________________ \|TG-8th Mercs\| * New to TG? Start here * Become a Supporting Member "4 to 70? I think we can still win this one!"

04-08-2008, 04:53 PM	#30 (permalink)
MDFubar Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: New Castle, DE Age: 40 Posts: 1,588	Re: tacticalgamer 52/54 man server Lol __________________ "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." - General George Patton Jr

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