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Discussion: Battlefield 2142 / Battlefield 2142 - General Discussion - Titan Motion mining - Originally Posted by Catman1975
But the Titan is hardly an UCB. One possible way to
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04-24-2008, 04:55 AM #16
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Re: Titin Motion mining
Because blowing the core has absolutely nothing to do with the entire front half of the Titan.
Originally Posted by Catman1975
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04-24-2008, 02:08 PM #17
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Re: Titan Motion mining
Look at any that one side attacks into, if theres vehicles one of the first thing that the attackers need to do is tie up those vehicles.
Big nasty gun ships comeing out of a ship 50 feet away from where you will pod in are very related things.
They can not be stollen and the mines are clearly viseable if you take the time to look.
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04-25-2008, 04:24 PM #18
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Re: Titan Motion mining
I have seen from may other Servers that this tactic is often considered just as low as RDX whoring and spawn camping... I would consider a Titan as a partial uncap as well. However...
|TG| prohibits base raping of the uncaps, as well as prohibiting vehicle stealing from the uncaps. You are allowed to destroy enemy assets, though. I personally would consider the transport and the gunship an asset free to be destroyed. The only question that I can't answer is: placing a mine as a trap, is that the same as destroying an asset or is that attacking the uncap?
If you where go into an empty base blow the Sat-link, EMP, and whatnot that is fine. So is it also wrong to blow the enemy walker while you are there? I know you're not allowed to steal it, but destroying it is not stealing it, so is that okay right?
So I've gone a little off topic, but I hope that if we compare this to a non-flying vehicle we might sort out some of the confusion. In the end I personally would consider mining a uncap as attacking an uncap, because a person has to be inside the vehicle to activate the motions mines. Attacking a uncap is not allowed by servers rules. However destroying an unoccupied vehicle is destroy an asset, not attacking.
Because the shield prevents a direct attack to the aircraft, you are laying mines to attack the people inside the craft, not destroying the aircraft as an asset. So I would consider the tactic effective, but like jihad jeeps, just because it works doesn't mean it should be used.
In the end, laying motion mines on a Titian shield should be prohibited.
~ Draken
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04-25-2008, 05:47 PM #19
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Re: Titan Motion mining
No. Originally Posted by DrakenViator
This shouldn't really be a discussion on mining a titan. Basically the Titan needs to be classified either as an uncap or not. When you answer the question about mines etc. is easily answered.
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04-25-2008, 09:29 PM #20
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Re: Titan Motion mining
If it were classes as an uncap then anyone on the enemy titan would not be permitted to engage anyone there waiting to attack them until them fire at you. Originally Posted by daithi1
DrakenViator, you can not put motion mines in the enemy base and you can not attack anything not attacking you so if the walker is fireing at you you can fire back but not place motion mines or for that matter RDX anywheres but asset's.
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04-26-2008, 01:53 AM #21
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Re: Titan Motion mining
I believe that we are specifically talking about the hangar deck, to which the enemy team never has access thanks to the shield behind the corridors and the core room. I believe DICE's intentions were pretty clear here as to whether or not they wanted opposing players in that area of the titan. Also of note is the fact that whenever you spawn on a titan, you spawn in this safe hangar deck. I would vote that the hangar deck be considered an uncap and motion mining it considered no different than motion mining an uncap.
I'd also like to point out that against a good team, motion mining the hangar deck would be even more devastating, as nobody would get in the transport / gunship because the players are "good" and therefore noticed the motion mines. It would in effect lock down most of that sides air support until the engineer who laid the mines is killed.
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04-26-2008, 02:09 AM #22
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I fully agree that you cannot/should not put motion minds within a uncap, if I gave you the wrong impression on that argument I am sorry. Originally Posted by Thesleeper01
As for the other issue of destroying vehicles within the uncap, my deepest apologies, I have since re-read the full 2142 rules pertain to this particular situation, and I am in error. I originally thought the section was a 'gray area' but as I seen now there is a more detailed section in addition to the first definition of 'assets' that specifically rules out my argument for destroying an unoccupied vehicle within a uncap.
Again my deepest apologies for my mistake...
To the new argument, I still feel the front half of the Titan should be viewed as UCB and motions mines a no go.
~ Draken
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04-26-2008, 02:54 AM #23
Re: Titan Motion mining
Regarding motion mining the Titan, it is absolutely allowed. As is mining the only way outside of a UCB. Why?
Sieges have been a successful military strategy since Biblical times. Cutting off enemy supply trains, cutting off their roads, cornering them to starve -- or in more global terms, placing economic, military and travel sanctions on a country -- have been extremely efficient and successful ways of resolving a conflict.
Hence so with the Titan -- mining it is and should be allowed. It is a valid and often-utilized real world strategy that relies on exploiting a weakness in the team's defenses.
The enemy is literally placing a siege on your Titan. The motion mines do not affect the player as he spawns in. By the point the player spawns in and jumps into a gunship or transport, he is at least mildly aware of his surroundings. A prudent pilot will hear the motion mine warning beep and land without taking off.
You may believe that those motion mines are not fair but life isn't fair. The TG rules are meant to ensure quality of gameplay but they are also meant to not restrict real world strategies.
If I had the option of starving a valley full of soldiers by cutting off their supply lines instead of putting hundreds of my men's lives in danger, I would definitely chose the former. It is a better tactical decision and this is what TG is all about -- tactics.Fight!
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04-26-2008, 03:34 AM #24
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Re: Titan Motion mining
So explain why I can't kill commanders. According to the LOAC, he's a valid target. Taking out key officers is a real-world strategy. Additionally, so is destroying unoccupied vehicle assets, and hell, even Jihad Jeeping if you want to get down to it.but they are also meant to not restrict real world strategies.
Motion-mining a Titan is also a lot different from dropping mines outside a UCB. The mines outside the UCB don't fly IN to the UCB and explode your vehicles when you get in - if they did, that means they're too close, meaning they're effectively IN the UCB, and that WOULD be a breach of the rules.
Standing on a hill behind a UCB with a Pilum and sniping tanks in the ass the second someone gets in them would be a breach of the rules too - but standing on top of the Titan with heavy weaponry doing the same thing is 'okay'?
It's a double standard. Either mining UCBs is okay, or mining Titans isn't.
Neither is spawncamping. Seriously, that post was pretty ridiculous from start to finish. You're justifying a lame tactic using logic that utterly defies every other rule we have in place.You may believe that those motion mines are not fair but life isn't fair.
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04-26-2008, 03:36 AM #25
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Re: Titan Motion mining
A likely set up is to have 2-3 at most guarding the beacons on top and motion mining it. If your squad is defending versus 1 squad at best that leaves 4 people attacking the passages inside. If you put 4 attacking the consoles and 2 defending the beacon and the defenders split up 3 in a corridor (I have seen 3 defend versus 2 full squads) and 3 freeing up the top of the titan. You can just all 3 pod on to the top and land on a beacon ... one land one kill, not a lot of skill required and the enemy can not get back to the top to place a beacon again. Or an engineer throws a motion mine bait out while a gun ship runs out while the bait is up any more motions will go after the bait so the gun ship is safe and can quickly turn both people on top in to blood meal. Originally Posted by DaBrit
Titan really is very easy to defend.
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04-26-2008, 04:21 AM #26
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Re: Titan Motion mining
the benefit of killing him verses the loss of teamwork on his side makes it annoying. Originally Posted by Uranium - 235
In the interest of fair play both sides need to be able to mount an offence/ defense destroying parked vehicles stops that. Originally Posted by Uranium - 235
It is unrealistic, cheesy & counter to the overall fun of everyone in game. No army ever tells you to strap on explosives and go explode yourself to kill the enemy. In the words of Gorge Patton I don’t want you to die for your country I want you to make the other bastard die for his. Originally Posted by Uranium - 235
Mines placed on the shield of the titan (note you can not place inside the bay only on the shield) will NOT fly in even if your in a vehicle that is moving you NEED to leave the shield to get hit. You can only ever damage someone that has actually LEFT the titan area trying to fly away. Originally Posted by Uranium - 235
From inside the UCB maybe but not from just outside the UBC like at the foot of the hill if your Pac holding monorail on the map Belgrade you can shut down all the armor in the EU base just like is being suggested here for titans. And it is all armor not a small fraction of it that spawns in the area your attacking. Originally Posted by Uranium - 235
Not really, if your in armor in Belgrade and you decide that you want to sit in your tank parked in your base all safe like and do nothing you can and not be attacked, if your sitting in your gun ship all safe like in a titan all and do nothing but sit there in the hanger you can not be attacked. Originally Posted by Uranium - 235
To remove the motions on Belgrade you need to move to the bottom of the hill get out of your vehicle and throw a bait all the while your likely getting a couple eng's and a rail gun beating on you let alone if someone guns you down while your getting ready to throw. Compared to on a titan where you can walk out in total safety and throw a bait and the attackers can not even attack you with any reasonable chance of success and to boot you may kill them with there own mines.
If your in an Uncap and someone puts motion mines on an air craft you may die as soon as you get in before you can eject same for tanks and other vehicles. There is ALWAYS a chance to eject when on the titan and you get in to a vehicle. The only way anyone dies to motion mines on a titan is because they did not get out with even the slightest urgency.
No attacking in uncap is an artificial way for TG to protect defenders. On titans there is no such thing needed as there is a hard shield that does the exact same thing in a much less subtle way.
If and only if a titan is considered an uncap then that distinction should only extend to the hanger bay that is off limits anyways.
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04-26-2008, 05:02 AM #27
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Re: Titan Motion mining
I never understood why Engineers put Motion Mines on the Gunship side of the shields. The mines will stop a transport, but a good gunship pilot can get out of the hanger regardless of motion mines if he knows what he's doing...
As for whether this should be allowed on TG servers, I think it should be. For starters, if your Titan is Motion Mined and you decide to take off with them there, without knowing how to do it without dieing, that's your fault for being stupid. TG is about team work, you should call for MMBait to be thrown so that you can take off. Dropping MMs in UCBs is illegal because you can't do anything about it. On a Titan, you can do something about it. Just because your team is incapable of throwing MMBait, that shouldn't mean the tactic should be illegal.
However, what it boils down to is this. Is dropping Motion Mines on the Titan's shields SUPPOSED to be allowed to happen by Dice, or is this a known bug? I know an enemy person/vehicle hitting those shields dies instantly, it kind of doesn't make sense that enemy explosives (RDX, APM, MM, etc) don't explode on contact. If this is a known and stated issue with the titan's shield's mechanics, then that would make it a game engine exploit, and thus shouldn't be allowed on the server.
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04-26-2008, 09:09 AM #28
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Re: Titan Motion mining
And being trapped inside your own armored aerial fortress because some douchebag threw a tier 3 unlock on top, which effectively requires a tier 5 unlock (and a Field Upgrade and/or a $10 investment) to counter ISN'T annoying? Originally Posted by Thesleeper01
... I hope you're joking when you said that...In the interest of fair play both sides need to be able to mount an offence/ defense destroying parked vehicles stops that.
[media]http://www.b-29s-over-korea.com/Japanese_Kamikaze/images/Bunker-Hill-Hit.jpg[/media]It is unrealistic, cheesy & counter to the overall fun of everyone in game. No army ever tells you to strap on explosives and go explode yourself to kill the enemy. In the words of Gorge Patton I don’t want you to die for your country I want you to make the other bastard die for his.
What?
Fair enough, but it doesn't change the fact that even with mines around the outside of a UCB you can still navigate around them, as most UCBs have more than one exit. Just two mines on top of a Titan effectively lock everything.Mines placed on the shield of the titan (note you can not place inside the bay only on the shield) will NOT fly in even if your in a vehicle that is moving you NEED to leave the shield to get hit. You can only ever damage someone that has actually LEFT the titan area trying to fly away.
Shooting anything at the UCB that isn't a threat to you, no matter if you're across the map, is against the rules. This means being on a hillside shooting the Pilum into it, firing Titan guns into it, or even using Orbital Strikes.From inside the UCB maybe but not from just outside the UBC like at the foot of the hill if your Pac holding monorail on the map Belgrade you can shut down all the armor in the EU base just like is being suggested here for titans. And it is all armor not a small fraction of it that spawns in the area your attacking.
What effectively is the difference between using Motion Mines on the shield and, say, hovering behind the UCB on Highway Tampa in your own gunship waiting for the enemy to take off so you can shoot a TV missile into them?
Zhohar thinks it should be allowed using some pretty ridiculous 'strategy' claim that is neither defined in the rules as being allowed, but is almost more effectively AGAINST the rules as they are written. His proposal that 'sieging' the enemy base is an effective tactic is fair, but it doesn't take a mutant space-brain to realize that mining the roads leading out of a UCB and mining the shield of the Titan are two different things. Mining the road out of a UCB isn't totally and completely possible - the Engineer is vulnerable, covering all the routes is impossible without more than one or two people - all these are overcome and are heavily balanced in favor of the Engineer when he's on top of the Titan.
I'm willing to bet that if I joined the server (and had motion mines unlocked) and dumped mines right next to the perimeter fence on the UCB of, say, Suez, I'd get warned for doing it. I'd also get warned for sitting way back on a hillside in a tank of my own, shooting enemy tanks in the ass as they drive out of the UCB - as I've seen someone get kicked for that under 'attacking the UCB' justification.
This is insanity. I've seen several proposed rules get shot down and rejected because they simply defined the game too finely - ie: X is allowed as is X+Y, but X+Y-Z isn't. Saying that Titans can be mined but UCBs cannot is a double-standard based on extremely flimsy logic, and will do nothing except create confusion. If mining the Titan hangar is okay, then nobody better complain if I camp out of bounds in a gunship firing TV missiles to strike full transports the second they leave the launch pad. Anyone doing that would be unspeakably lame in my book, and I'd say the same thing of anyone mining the top of the Titan.
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04-26-2008, 10:47 AM #29
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Re: Titan Motion mining
[/QUOTE
The T1 unlock will do it too for you as will killing the engineer that laided them. And your Never locked in your titan because you can pod out. Originally Posted by Uranium - 235
No I was talking about modern militarys. Japan is the only major one that I know of and to a lesser extent the russians. The russians were different because they expected to crash in to an enemy plane and live with there sturdy planes. Originally Posted by Uranium - 235
I asure you that belgrade only has one and many of the ones that only have one usualy get tied down getting past the area the flag is in. Originally Posted by Uranium - 235
Now your putting words in my mouth, I did not say to shoot in to the UBS I said to put motion mines there at the bottom of the hill. Also I would say that no one would say that a vehicle is off limits that has come down half of the hill before it hits the mines also like I said. Originally Posted by Uranium - 235
One of the first ones is that in the gun ship you can not fire till they leave the ubc so the gun ship turns gets you in it's sights while still in the base and launches a TV missile. Till they fire you can not. Or option 2 someone jumps in to an air defence and hits you with an emp round, while you plummit to the ground .. remeber you can not fire till they do he explodes you with his guns. Originally Posted by Uranium - 235
Not true we have had an admin say it is NOT aginst the rules as written. Originally Posted by Uranium - 235
Again not true, if it were how would you explain Belgrade? And berlin where you have 4-5 engineers TOTALY stopping every bit of armor that spawns in there base. I have see people dropping motions as far out as the 1st intersection and a bit further. Originally Posted by Uranium - 235
If you put them along the fence yes, no one said that close ... if you put them say 50-100 feet away you would be fine and no one would say a thing to you .... I have done it. It’s not lame it’s war! Originally Posted by Uranium - 235
Can you show that mining the SHIELD not the hanger is more difficult breaking out or getting past than mining the ground outside of the Pac base on Belgrade or for EU mining Berlin out side of Pac base? I don’t think so they can be the best 2 places in the entire game to hold both for east of effect and ease of holding them. Originally Posted by Uranium - 235
If you fancy your chances just hovering over the enemy base and blasting things as they take off do so, you will not fair nearly as well as you think unless you start shooting first. As an added note many would argue that in a base like that the "base" extends up some. You may have missed it let me say it again ....
YES it is totally ok to destroy vehicles after they leave the UBC, for your own benefit be careful what is and is not in the UBC is fuzzy. Most pilots that decide to ambush transports as they leave the UBS stand off a bit and pounce when the transport is not expecting it.
More and more this seems like a rant because you don’t have the motion mine & bait unlocks. If you had a chance to play with them you would see how easy it is counter mines.
That you don't have them or that bait is a T5 unlock does not change there permissibility as many many do have them both and this game is about team work.
In about 80% of all cases that I have seen an engineer tosses there motions on the shield to give a bit of breathing room and then goes inside, the next vehicle that leaves clears them and the rest can leave unharmed. Not always though, as an engineer I have had to clear a support and engineer from the roof to get out. I simply walked up the shield area and tossed a motion mine bait killing the support and then shot the surprised eng in the back then I quickly destroyed their beacon.
Locking down the hanger is just not the level of lock down your letting on it is. There’s many options open to defenders.
Here is something you may not realize on maps that the base can be unlocked the base is considered a UBC till it is unlocked then it can attacked. Sort of like titans.
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04-26-2008, 11:24 AM #30
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Re: Titin Motion mining
Does motion mine bait go through shields? And will it attract motion mines on the opposite side of a shield? Or does an engie have to pod out of the titan, get on top, then throw bait? Originally Posted by Eroak
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