Re: SL to SL voip channels = AWESOMENESS

**pred011586** · 02-27-2009, 06:28 AM

=\ As long as it's not producing blowout after blowout after blowout, like it was the last time I saw it used and made a thread about teamstacking because of it (unaware at the time that it was being used against me)... I'm against it, but I'm not going to condemn those who want a more fun experience. Just be responsible with it, if you notice you're blowing the other team out of the water, move back to the lobby and stay there until the other team gets SLs who use TS on their side. It's similar to teamstacking in that sense, if you're winning by ridiculous proportions, switch team/channel.

**black_Mirror** · 02-27-2009, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by pred011586

=\ As long as it's not producing blowout after blowout after blowout, like it was the last time I saw it used and made a thread about teamstacking because of it (unaware at the time that it was being used against me)... I'm against it, but I'm not going to condemn those who want a more fun experience. Just be responsible with it, if you notice you're blowing the other team out of the water, move back to the lobby and stay there until the other team gets SLs who use TS on their side. It's similar to teamstacking in that sense, if you're winning by ridiculous proportions, switch team/channel.

I agree with you that people who are using it should be aware of what they are doing. It should be used with wariness. There is no need to take the fun out of the game in order to win.
Thanks for that good discussion mate

**Tigerblitz** · 02-27-2009, 11:01 AM

This was happening while my squad was not listening to my orders when we were getting caped out. "CLEAR THE FLAG 2 SQUADS ARE ON IT!" Well they went and tried to keep the pac buggy alive. Needless to say I was pissed. I left and steamed over assains creed, all and all great attack.

**Crux** · 02-28-2009, 08:20 AM

using a 3rd party program to bypass a limitation of the game to give your team an advantage that the other team most likely can't use

Sorry, but this is the fallacy that your argument is built on, and hence is so easily discredited.

What I get from your spiel is this:

You don't care enough about teamwork to make sure you load Teamspeak before you play.

You don't care enough about teamwork to follow the step-by-step guide WITH PICTURES on how to change channels in teamspeak without needing to alt+tab and hence avoid crashes.

Not caring, you'd rather take away a layer of teamwork and coordination on the server for those of us not too lazy to use the tools FREELY AVAILABLE to everyone in order to be better players and better teammates.

**DrBeat** · 02-28-2009, 09:50 AM

The SL channels area great resource at our disposal, so why not use it? It increases teamwork on the server. Teamspeak already increases the game ; you get to hear the smack talk and perhaps get a squad invite. This simply further enriches game play. There is no reason anyone can't use the channels

**PM..** · 02-28-2009, 01:15 PM

When I open teamspeak before battlefield, I check who is on and where, and if I see this being used, I notice it's only ever 1 side using it. And I only ever hear Silver suggest EU to channel 1 and PAC to channel 2. I'm doing a lot more SL'ing now, and would like to use this more often, as it's always good to know your other squads plans, and prevents everyone attacking the same flag, etc. It takes longer to read this than set up your channels, so I suggest you do it now, and we have load smore fun with it!

**pred011586** · 02-28-2009, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by Crux

Sorry, but this is the fallacy that your argument is built on, and hence is so easily discredited.

What I get from your spiel is this:

You don't care enough about teamwork to make sure you load Teamspeak before you play.

You don't care enough about teamwork to follow the step-by-step guide WITH PICTURES on how to change channels in teamspeak without needing to alt+tab and hence avoid crashes.

Not caring, you'd rather take away a layer of teamwork and coordination on the server for those of us not too lazy to use the tools FREELY AVAILABLE to everyone in order to be better players and better teammates.

If you're going to discredit my entire argument because you think I don't care about teamwork, then you've clearly know nothing about me. I care alot about teamwork, but what I care more about, is creating an environment on our server that respects everyone, not just the people who read these forums and know about this. Let's face it, anybody who doesn't visit these forums regularly will have absolutely no idea about this. They'll see alot of TG on one side, and see that side winning by blowouts. Is that the image of TG we want others to see? Do we want people coming to our server and seeing a place that's pointless to go to because the house clan (not everyone knows we're not a clan) band together to wipe out pubbies?

I'd rather take away a layer of teamwork and coordination on the server for those of us on the server who know nothing about it, and never would be able to.

Has the chase for the epitome of teamwork and coordination blinded us to the point where we don't even realize that we're just stomping on pubbies? There's a term for people who do that, and it's a term that I refuse to believe should be applied to us, we're better than that.

I challenge anyone here to come up with a fair way of using this, maybe force SLs who use it to split sides, but even that has it's flaws. For instance it won't be often that there's more than 3 SLs in a channel. Shipping one off to the other side defeats the purpose because he'll have noone to communicate with. Shipping two off again defeats the purpose because the one left behind will have noone.

I am not denying that this is an extremely proficient method of teamwork and coordination. What I'm denying is that it's not appropriate for use on our public servers.

Also, since we're talking about fallacies, what you did there is called ad hominem. You took a part of my argument, and twisted it into an attack on me, instead of my argument, in an attempt to make me seem like someone not worth listening to. So if you can say my argument is discredited because of a false assumption, then your counter argument can just as easily be discredited.

**FLIPmode** · 02-28-2009, 04:52 PM

There already was a discussion on the usage of Teamspeak and it was deemed to be enhancing teamwork as opposed to simply giving the Teamspeak team an "unfair" advantage. Plus when you are loading onto the TG server, it explicitly says "We do utilize Teamspeak".

And you don't need to have a lot of TG on one side to make TS team channels work. 2-3 TG SLs in one channel can further communicate the enemy's position and avoid having 2 squads throw themselves onto a flag when it can be taken only with one.

**Crux** · 02-28-2009, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by pred011586

If you're going to discredit my entire argument because you think I don't care about teamwork, then you've clearly know nothing about me.

Uh, no. I discredit your entire argument because it based on the fallacy I quoted directly before writing my response:

using a 3rd party program to bypass a limitation of the game to give your team an advantage that the other team most likely can't use

The other team likely can use. They often don't bother to. Can not and do not are not the same thing.

I care alot about teamwork, but what I care more about, is creating an environment on our server that respects everyone, not just the people who read these forums and know about this. Let's face it, anybody who doesn't visit these forums regularly will have absolutely no idea about this. They'll see alot of TG on one side, and see that side winning by blowouts. Is that the image of TG we want others to see? Do we want people coming to our server and seeing a place that's pointless to go to because the house clan (not everyone knows we're not a clan) band together to wipe out pubbies?

I'd rather take away a layer of teamwork and coordination on the server for those of us on the server who know nothing about it, and never would be able to.

So perhaps the correct response isn't to can or ban the use of Teamspeak for coordinating between squads? Maybe, I dunno, education to improve and raise the level of teamwork and coordination on the server might be a better answer?

Has the chase for the epitome of teamwork and coordination blinded us to the point where we don't even realize that we're just stomping on pubbies? There's a term for people who do that, and it's a term that I refuse to believe should be applied to us, we're better than that.

I can't remember the last time I saw one team with all TG and the other with all pubbies. Probably because I don't think it has ever happened. We're equal-opportunity stompers, stomping both TG and pubbies alike!

Also, since we're talking about fallacies, what you did there is called ad hominem. You took a part of my argument, and twisted it into an attack on me, instead of my argument, in an attempt to make me seem like someone not worth listening to. So if you can say my argument is discredited because of a false assumption, then your counter argument can just as easily be discredited.

No, I didn't twist any of your argument. I simply pointed out the flaw in it. The "you's" following were proverbial "you's". Ie, if "you" cannot be bothered to run teamspeak, or do something relatively easy that has been explained in detail in order to promote a higher level of teamwork for your team, then you don't get to whine that it is unfair. That you, Pred, may happen to fall into this category isn't my fault.

**Zhohar** · 02-28-2009, 08:13 PM

Pred, I've seen SL-to-SL VOIP used from its birth with Damonte on Sidi, to its acceptance, and I'm going to relay a few facts to you.

1. It makes a team more team-work oriented, it promotes better communication, and when the CO is in the same channel, it makes the SL's jobs easier.

2. It makes the game A LOT TOUGHER.
It's harder to get away with "cute" things like breakthrough, or recon runs. It's harder to defend flags because they're usually assaulted by two squads. It's harder to assault flags because the defenders call for backup. It's harder to save armor because the SLs can tell their CO to emp+orb critical piece of armor.

It just steps up the game 10 fold. It makes the game tougher. Much more stressful for SLs, more more difficult for COs, and much harder to SMs.

----

Teamstacks happen, and that's a sad fact. The admins know how to deal with them. But this feature does not cause teamstacks.
It causes a loss, if the TG SLs on one side are not willing to work together.
When you hear "EU SLs to channel 1", and if you're on PAC, you just got told that this a whole new ballgame. You need to step it up, and do the same. Call on people personally to SL, and ask them to join channel 2.

SL-to-SL VOIP only causes imbalanced games if the opposing side is lazy and unwilling.

And if you're SLing as a TGer and you're not in TS, out of laziness or whatever, you're potentially causing your team to lose.

**PM..** · 02-28-2009, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by Zhohar

Pred, I've seen SL-to-SL VOIP used from its birth with Damonte on Sidi, to its acceptance, and I'm going to relay a few facts to you.

1. It makes a team more team-work oriented, it promotes better communication, and when the CO is in the same channel, it makes the SL's jobs easier.

2. It makes the game A LOT TOUGHER.
It's harder to get away with "cute" things like breakthrough, or recon runs. It's harder to defend flags because they're usually assaulted by two squads. It's harder to assault flags because the defenders call for backup. It's harder to save armor because the SLs can tell their CO to emp+orb critical piece of armor.

It just steps up the game 10 fold. It makes the game tougher. Much more stressful for SLs, more more difficult for COs, and much harder to SMs.

----

Teamstacks happen, and that's a sad fact. The admins know how to deal with them. But this feature does not cause teamstacks.
It causes a loss, if the TG SLs on one side are not willing to work together.
When you hear "EU SLs to channel 1", and if you're on PAC, you just got told that this a whole new ballgame. You need to step it up, and do the same. Call on people personally to SL, and ask them to join channel 2.

SL-to-SL VOIP only causes imbalanced games if the opposing side is lazy and unwilling.

And if you're SLing as a TGer and you're not in TS, out of laziness or whatever, you're potentially causing your team to lose.

Perfect example of this a few minutes ago. Guess who won th last round, this round and probably the next round? See attached..

Now your right, and it's not a bad thing, this is good, however, there were not as many willing SL's on the other team and it just ends up being very depressing for the losing side when it's like this. Hence I'm here and not getting my butt kicked again. I don't mind losing, but I don't want to be the only 1 or 1 of a few who try to put up a fight, and have half the team not sure why they are losing so bad. Especially when some TG'ers are not using TG tags..

I'm off to the Titan server, where we have some close battles and nail-biting ends to rounds..

**Zhohar** · 02-28-2009, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by PM07SNV

I see 10 TGers on your side, and 10 on ours, even accounting for people who used to be TG.
We won because we bothered to use SL-to-SL VOIP co-ordination. It wasn't a teamstack. There was a healthy amount of TGers on both sides.

What are you saying again? What's your point?

**pred011586** · 02-28-2009, 10:28 PM

I am noticing a running trend here. Between this time, and the last time I made a statement on this, the arguments against my opinion have been from the more competitive players who play on the server. Maybe my thoughts are coming off the wrong way? Or maybe we're just not on the same wavelength here.

Look, not once have I ever doubted the benefit that SL-SL comms brings to teamwork. Everybody here is smart enough to be able to tell that SLs being able to coordinate directly with other SLs creates an entirely new aspect to the game that gives the side using it added strength. When there's something on the line in the game, like a tournament, or a league, or whatever kinds of competitive play exists, then I can understand utilizing this. All I'm asking is if our home server is really the appropriate place to be using this? Look at the screenshots that PM posted. What do they show? Are you telling that's fair for the other team? Are you trying to tell me that if they don't like losing they should use it too? Take a step outside of your own opinions for a second. If you were an average player, on the losing side of that, what would you do? "SL and go in to Team2!"? With whom? The other SLs, of course, but how are you going to tell them? Let's do a quick analysis of PM's screenshots. The Players screen in that screenshot shows 21 people per team. Seeing as it's 23 vs 22, there's 3 people not on the screen. On the TS, I assume he cropped it out at the bottom of the channel, if so, there's 22 people on TS. Of the 22 on TS, I count ... 1 person on EU... unles people are using characters that don't match their TS name at all. Assuming that the 2 people not showing up are on TS, that's 3 on EU. For Pac, 8, 9 if you include the one person not showing on the screenshot. So at most, TS representation is 3 vs 9... And this doesn't look like a problem to you because, "it's so easy to use"?

And Crux, I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that I wasn't logging on TS every time I joined the server as of late. I must be talking to ghosts =(. I'm not too lazy to get on TS, I refuse to use SL-SL because of the advantage it gives. Not on the public servers. Is it lazyness? No, I've had the key bindings set for a long time now. Also, if your post about me not caring about teamwork wasn't part of your counter-argument, then was it a personal attack against me? I don't get why you would bring up that you think I don't care about teamwork enough.

**DocGuo** · 02-28-2009, 10:45 PM

the only way I can see to resolve such a mess (tensions are running high!) is introduce more people into the TG community....if they only knew about the TS and what it can offer I bet some will at least try it out...
It is not without reason that I warn that such a step for many people especially pubbies require a kind of dedication that goes above and beyond what they expect from a public server....we have to understand the context in which we present our server to the outside world

Every SL needs to let their squads open up and allow people who don't wear the tags to join their squads......

Educating them is the best thing and these days I see so many locked squads....I always leave my squad open and many people have joined our community because they are then able to get a handle on what our community is about.....we need to break that barrier and allow our community to grow...

I talked to a non-TG player who joined our squad and he asked why the other squads were locked up and why mine was open....I really had no good answers...

**Exploding_Silver** · 02-28-2009, 10:51 PM

one suggestion i have is to make the loading map message more descriptive
ie from "We utilise teamspeak during rounds"
to something like "We use teamspeak for SL to SL comms, join our teamspeak !"
or something like "Join us on teamspeak for SL to SL comms !"
or something like "We use teamspeak for SL to SL teamwork"

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