Re: [Video] Nekomata vs. Tiger

**Zhohar** · 05-08-2009, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by LordKelvin

a stable firing platform like the Tiger can adjust and compensate for that strafing

You sure?
Most people having a difficulty hitting a perpendicular infantry at 20m with an assault rifle.
Hitting a tank at 200m that is strafing is a very difficult thing to do.

And if you are swinging yourself wildly side-to side, you most certainly aren't hitting anything with your shots.

The game's physics engine is not advanced enough to factor vehicle movement into its projectile path. In fact, the projectile path is quite independent of the vehicle that fires it.
Hence, the deciding factor is a person's ability to aim while moving.
I've been able to hit Rorsches at 50m away while moving at full strafe speed in a Nekomata. I think you are overestimating the effect movement has on a person's ability to aim.

In addition, strafing causes your aim in the Nekomata to bounce all over the place, since when you are zoomed, every nook and cranny in the ground amplifies itself to the point where you can't aim at anything with any sort of precision.

Most tank battles are done on flat, open ground. Shooting while traversing uneven ground will produce erratic results regardless of the equipment used.

Add in the fact that the Tiger can keep it's aim steady independent of it's movement means that it can and will out-manouvere you at long distance.

The concept of manouverability deals with a vehicle's speed and turning radius. This ability is not impacted by the vehicle's ability to move its turret independently of its body.

**MrJengles** · 05-08-2009, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by LordKelvin

True, the Nekomata can strafe sideways to avoid shots. However, unless you are swinging yourself wildly side-to-side, a stable firing platform like the Tiger can adjust and compensate for that strafing. And if you are swinging yourself wildly side-to side, you most certainly aren't hitting anything with your shots. In addition, strafing causes your aim in the Nekomata to bounce all over the place, since when you are zoomed, every nook and cranny in the ground amplifies itself to the point where you can't aim at anything with any sort of precision. Add in the fact that the Tiger can keep it's aim steady independent of it's movement means that it can and will out-manouvere you at long distance.

Aha, I thought this is what you might say. I have played Tampa many times and am accustomed to the tanks abilities, this is a good point...a Nekomata that is strafing fast at such a large distance has a hard time hitting unless the driver is very skilled. Also the time it takes for a tank shot to reach the Tiger is so long that even if he was sitting still at first he can most likely dodge the shot - or for the odd failed dodge: pop his shields up. While the Tiger, sitting nice and still, can concentrate on aiming that gun very well and, with good enough marksmanship, hit the Nek despite it's strafing.

However, first off the moment the Tiger turns it's side and decides to strafe constantly it is at a disadvantage, being that it strafes slower than the Nek AND it is now exposing it's side.

Second, something missed out by some people, the Nek does not have to move CONSTANTLY. Reloading between tank shells is so long that the moment after the Tiger has fired and missed, the Nek is free to slow down and fire in a well aimed shot. Then start to strafe again. The Tiger, being still becomes quite an easy target, you can account for the slight movement he may make for each shot.

If the Tiger employs the same tactic and both of you only move when the opponent is firing, then stability and aim is no longer an issue. It comes down to the dodging. A Tiger moving backwards and forwards is easier to hit because this is slow and very straight, although it is showing it's front side. A Tiger strafing is faster than that and can vary the direction slightly if needed, although harder to hit it is now showing it's weak side. Varying between these 2 to find out what you're opponent is like helps.

In conclusion this should mean that the Nekomata is better, because it is the fastest at strafing and is not showing it's side, therefore has both advantages.

Originally Posted by Smackateria

I would argue that the Tiger, in comparison to the Nekomata, has a greater, immediate acceleration in moving in a certain direction while the Nekomata from a still position takes a critical moment to gain speed in any direction.

Indeed, for my above arguements this means the Tiger can get moving faster after it stops to fire, therefore helping if it is infact showing it's side. While the Nek will have to move the moment after it takes a shot at the enemy, otherwise it may not accelerate out of the way of the opponent's shot fast enough.

**LaezarFox** · 05-08-2009, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by Zhohar

The game's physics engine is not advanced enough to factor vehicle movement into its projectile path. In fact, the projectile path is quite independent of the vehicle that fires it.
Hence, the deciding factor is a person's ability to aim while moving.
I've been able to hit Rorsches at 50m away while moving at full strafe speed in a Nekomata. I think you are overestimating the effect movement has on a person's ability to aim.

Are you saying that if a tank shell is fired in the x direction while the tank is strafing in the y direction that the projectile will have no y component?

**PM..** · 05-08-2009, 09:44 PM

Well I find the Tiger's 2nd seat much more bouncy giving me more comfort on those bumpy roads. I can get a bit sick in the Nek sometimes..

Some people like 1, some the other. We know the differences between tanks, so do your fighting on the battlefield.

**MrJengles** · 05-08-2009, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by Zhohar

You sure?
Most people having a difficulty hitting a perpendicular infantry at 20m with an assault rifle.
Hitting a tank at 200m that is strafing is a very difficult thing to do.

Heh, it's still a tank Zhohar, it's a lot larger than any infantry I've seen lol. Don't get me wrong I'm still agreeing with you about which is better in this instance. I'm just making both points because the Tiger isn't terribly worse off in this situation and can, occasionly in other situations, have an advantage (see my last post).

Originally Posted by Zhohar

The game's physics engine is not advanced enough to factor vehicle movement into its projectile path. In fact, the projectile path is quite independent of the vehicle that fires it.
Hence, the deciding factor is a person's ability to aim while moving.
I've been able to hit Rorsches at 50m away while moving at full strafe speed in a Nekomata. I think you are overestimating the effect movement has on a person's ability to aim.

Originally Posted by LaezarFox

Are you saying that if a tank shell is fired in the x direction while the tank is strafing in the y direction that the projectile will have no y component?

Hm, I'm not sure of this personally, but I think it veers off to one side ever so slightly, maybe I'm wrong. If you slow down or change direction in a Nekomata suddenly, however, you will have a drop in stability and aiming as you sink towards the ground slightly due to the floating. Kind of a moot point really as you should simply do this at the times you are not firing, and nor the opponent because you've slowed down. It's just some newbies don't think of that and so the Tiger wins.

**flik2142** · 05-09-2009, 07:06 AM

I enjoy using both tanks. I have seen some excellent uses of the Tiger, some excellent uses of the Neko. Both are good, which is best? You spend 40 hours in the Tiger and 20 hours in the Neko and it's likely you'll favour the Tiger. Vice versa. I've read the above arguments and noone has said anything that is wrong. It's a matter of opinion and just because you don't agree with someone there's no need to flame. It's the same with assault weapons, people are so easy and quick to smash down on someone just because they don't agree with their way of thinking - why so much contention?

The Nek is great cos it's faster, can strafe whilst showing only its front side and hovering over the ground is cool (sic). The Tiger does have greater stability, it just does. The Nek when strafing from side to side will see its shots curve because of that movement, you can adjust your aim to compensate sure, but it makes hitting targets more difficult. You think you can hit that shot every time Zhohar? I doubt it. I've hit gunships flying near full speed at medium height with a pilum, so? I know I got lucky with my guess work of where it will be and when.

At distance, the Tiger can reverse in a curve right/left as the Neko strafes. It can also follow the Neko with its turret, making sure it exposes only the front armour to shells. At close quarters, it can also reverse and then follow the same procedure. It also has the option of hitting shields, driving past the Neko, turning its turret and hitting the backside - whereas you always know where the Neko turret is facing. The example you showed in your video is a classic 'what not to do' as a Tiger driver. The driver of that tank (who i hope wasn't me) clearly failed to recognise that if he is hit on the sides or rear of his tank, he tanks much more damage than shells hitting his front armour. He stood still and let you kill him.

If he was in a Neko, then it is more likely he would have tried moving the tank to face you - because lets face it he has to in order to try and shoot you - I still think you would have won that battle, especially if you have a second player who can hop out after you being circling him and he turns to face you so he exposes himself to a pilum from behind.

I don't understand why you require people to agree with you though. People are entitled to their own opinions, they don't need force feeding on what is best. Baur sucks as an assault weapon? Ask L.E.H.F. this.

Is there any way it is possible to find the stats on how players perform with the respective tanks? Or better yet, find a nice secluded spot and fight 100 matches between Tiger and Neko with each other and claim your bragging rights.

**LogicalHarm** · 05-09-2009, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by flik2142

I enjoy using both tanks. I have seen some excellent uses of the Tiger, some excellent uses of the Neko. Both are good, which is best? You spend 40 hours in the Tiger and 20 hours in the Neko and it's likely you'll favour the Tiger. Vice versa. I've read the above arguments and noone has said anything that is wrong. It's a matter of opinion and just because you don't agree with someone there's no need to flame. It's the same with assault weapons, people are so easy and quick to smash down on someone just because they don't agree with their way of thinking - why so much contention?

The Nek is great cos it's faster, can strafe whilst showing only its front side and hovering over the ground is cool (sic). The Tiger does have greater stability, it just does. The Nek when strafing from side to side will see its shots curve because of that movement, you can adjust your aim to compensate sure, but it makes hitting targets more difficult. You think you can hit that shot every time Zhohar? I doubt it. I've hit gunships flying near full speed at medium height with a pilum, so? I know I got lucky with my guess work of where it will be and when.

At distance, the Tiger can reverse in a curve right/left as the Neko strafes. It can also follow the Neko with its turret, making sure it exposes only the front armour to shells. At close quarters, it can also reverse and then follow the same procedure. It also has the option of hitting shields, driving past the Neko, turning its turret and hitting the backside - whereas you always know where the Neko turret is facing. The example you showed in your video is a classic 'what not to do' as a Tiger driver. The driver of that tank (who i hope wasn't me) clearly failed to recognise that if he is hit on the sides or rear of his tank, he tanks much more damage than shells hitting his front armour. He stood still and let you kill him.

If he was in a Neko, then it is more likely he would have tried moving the tank to face you - because lets face it he has to in order to try and shoot you - I still think you would have won that battle, especially if you have a second player who can hop out after you being circling him and he turns to face you so he exposes himself to a pilum from behind.

I don't understand why you require people to agree with you though. People are entitled to their own opinions, they don't need force feeding on what is best. Baur sucks as an assault weapon? Ask L.E.H.F. this.

Is there any way it is possible to find the stats on how players perform with the respective tanks? Or better yet, find a nice secluded spot and fight 100 matches between Tiger and Neko with each other and claim your bragging rights.

and the moral of the story is: a bad worker always blames his tools. (the pac gunship is exempt from this rule

)

**MrJengles** · 05-09-2009, 04:17 PM

Lol, nicely put Flik

**VanGoghsKnife** · 05-12-2009, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Zhohar

Quick little video showing why I prefer the PAC tanks to EU's on any day.

You can snipe with the Tiger, I forgot, does Neko not offer sniping? The other advantage is that you can adjust your canon without changing position/rotation. I'm not sure if 2142 is like BF2, but the back of the tank in BF2 is sensitive, With the Tiger you could turn the tank around such that back is front, making it so that someone has to face you to make a sensitive shot.

I like Neko's hovering ability, easier escape snipers planting C4..

I think if I had been the Tiger I'd sniped the Neko tank from far off, than get involved. That tends to be my favorite thing to do with the Tiger. Note, these videos are excellent demonstrations until you realize the scenerio would probably not happen in a real situation, unless the Tiger wasn't aware of the Neko's presence, that's a good reason to slap a IDS onto the tank..

**FrozenInferno** · 06-07-2009, 07:20 PM

BUMP

Video of some PAC vs. EU tanks action last night on Highway Tampa. Shows the strafing advantages of the Nekomata and its excellent maneuverability.
[media]http://vimeo.com/5050037[/media]

**Zhohar** · 06-07-2009, 09:30 PM

Haha, fun times.
Make a thread about this, we need more people enlightened about how much PAC tanks rock.

**FrozenInferno** · 06-07-2009, 10:38 PM

Seriously. With some crafty driving any Nekomata can outdo a Tiger. The Nekomata is faster than the Tiger when it drives sideways, so when it's strafing around a Tiger it will easily get a good hit on it. Maybe you say "then just reverse the Tiger" No. Even a hit on the side does substantial damage to a tank. [as seen in the first engagement in video above] Also, as stated previously, it is impossible to hit a strafing Nekomata when fighting at distances; score another advantage for it.

That's just how I see it and what I have gotten from this thread.

**Sargentkyle23** · 06-07-2009, 11:06 PM

Nice vid Frozen! Way to show the superiority of the Nekomata

**LordKelvin** · 06-07-2009, 11:21 PM

Except for that one guy in the beginning of the video who didn't really move until you jumped him and also blew his shield at the wrong time... All your kills were on tanks that weren't even paying attention to you. That's just bad situational awareness, not that your tank is superior.

**Mixa** · 06-08-2009, 06:48 AM

Tiger sucks because its shots bug, thats the fact. I favor tanks and nekomata is my favorite of all, even besides the fact that Tampa already hugely favors PAC why thing like this was even possible. Tiger is hard and non rewarding tank for me eventually, I want to learn it but I never get much out of it (ping makes dodging side shots even harder though it is possible).

Nekomata is weaker to the sneaky infantry though, as you can see in that as cannon shots don't lower so well as in Tiger, and this has killed me when I have been trying to take too many infrantry on up and personal (like frozen almost did on that video). I'd pick Nekomata anyway as all tiger shots will go straight, but with Neko you can move and adjust even more how your shots get on your target.

Tiger is just more stable but it doesn't help at all on armor maps like Tampa. It goes but I will take Neko anytime.

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