Re: Question: The IDS Crash

**DrProctor** · 06-11-2009, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by WhiskeySix

Not true in non-deterministic, multithreaded software like this... For example, the crash may only happen when the IDS is placed AND something else occurs within the same 'tick'. Sometimes the IDS will cause a crash, and sometimes it will not.

Once again, it's replicating the exact state of the system that is the difficulty. All variables being the same, the same event would occur. Hence, identifying 'A' is the difficulty. Computers are not quantum (at least, not mainstream ones) yet.

**Crux** · 06-11-2009, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Catman1975

After any initial rush the first thing I do is throw up an IDS on my otis.

I bolded the important part for you

**Crux** · 06-11-2009, 12:31 PM

The belief that IDSes cause lockups is widespread enough that I've heard people on TeamSpeak shout out "Who threw the IDS?"

I think it important to note the incredible frequency with which someone will respond "I did. Sorry!" when that question is asked.

No, it doesn't happy every time. BF2142 is a complex piece of software. At the beginning of any given round, there are a LOT of things happening. But the IDS link has been noticed far too many times for it to be coincidence at this juncture. What we're missing here isn't whether or not the IDS is linked to the crashes, but rather what else has to happen in conjunction with the IDS placement to cause a crash.

**WhiskeySix** · 06-11-2009, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by DrProctor

Once again, it's replicating the exact state of the system that is the difficulty. All variables being the same, the same event would occur. Hence, identifying 'A' is the difficulty. Computers are not quantum (at least, not mainstream ones) yet.

Fair enough... but for this discussion A = IDS placed.

**RoadWarrior** · 06-11-2009, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by WhiskeySix

note: in software, A doesn't have to lead to B EVERY time for it to be a cause SOME of the time. It's an edge case... a timing thing. If it crashed EVERY time, EA's testers would have caught it

I completely agree. I have always personally believed it is a timing thing and since it is common place that we hold spawn for tactical objectives, it could be something as simple as squads spawning in when someone drops the IDS.

After many years of s/w development, my instincts have always tingled "timing issue", and the edge case scenario. Hence why we sometimes don't see the problem occuring as the timing conflict doesn't get triggered. However, it is not like we have debug code running or diagnostic software running to provide imperical proof, we have just observed a commonality of events, correlated to the IDS/PDS.

**WhiskeySix** · 06-11-2009, 12:50 PM

anyway - maybe we just make a sticky here and all TGer's know not to do it... that will eliminate a HUGE chunk of the population that would be dropping IDS at the start of rounds?

**Axis_Sniper** · 06-11-2009, 01:18 PM

EA has testers?? News to me.

**Catman1975** · 06-11-2009, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by Crux

I bolded the important part for you

sorry I'll clarify

After an initial (typical 8th) rush. Since we all have ADD in the 8th and can't sit still for 3 seconds, our rushes are typically over before the first 30 seconds of the game. I'm pretty sure our rushes are done before I hit about 10 seconds in game

help?

**ProjectNA** · 06-11-2009, 04:04 PM

Maybe a dumb idea, but do we have a 2142 server we can play around on to try and make it happen?

**draeh** · 06-11-2009, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by DrProctor

Once again, it's replicating the exact state of the system that is the difficulty. All variables being the same, the same event would occur. Hence, identifying 'A' is the difficulty. Computers are not quantum (at least, not mainstream ones) yet.

Its a Race Condition. Most complex one I have ever debugged took, on average, 4 hours mean time between replications... that was one long week of my life I shall never get back.

**MrJengles** · 06-11-2009, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by WhiskeySix

note: in software, A doesn't have to lead to B EVERY time for it to be a cause SOME of the time.

Originally Posted by DrProctor

That is not true. In software, A will always lead to B.

Originally Posted by WhiskeySix

Fair enough... but for this discussion A = IDS placed.

Indeed, this is simply a discussion on what A stands for XD When people say A = B they usually mean the general idea CAUSE = EFFECT, which as DrProctor says, is always the case for computers.

The term CAUSE itself may be one event, or it may be multiple events (as can EFFECT).
Thus, in this instance of IDS's:

CAUSE = EFFECT
A = B
a + b = B

A = CAUSE = a + b
B = EFFECT = server crash
a = IDS thrown
b is unknown

That is, as long as we are correct with our guesswork. Clear up the understanding?

Originally Posted by DrProctor

A user-interface is rarely a good tool for identifying where a bug exists within software because identifying and replicating 'A' becomes impractically difficult. And we are hardly a test-team who are dedicating themselves to tracking down and identifying the bug, we're just people playing the game who have individually identified a trend which may or may not actually exist.

Agreed. My point about testing was simply to recreate lots of people throwing IDS's at the start to see how likely a crash is...and perhaps something else would get noticed for the times the server does crash, but that would be very lucky.

**pinkypig** · 06-11-2009, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by MrJengles

Agreed. My point about testing was simply to recreate lots of people throwing IDS's at the start to see how likely a crash is...and perhaps something else would get noticed for the times the server does crash, but that would be very lucky.

Quick question: Is it possible for us to try that out? Say, on password night or something, when it's only TG'ers who know about the IDS problem. Just for one round, get only those who have IDS unlocked to spawn in and throw it down, so there's no other variables (like people spawning in for a squad bomb)?

**<FHC]==0 HighNoon** · 06-12-2009, 04:33 AM

Not sure how this affects the discussion, but on multiple occasions on different servers each time I have thrown down an IDS, ALWAYS early in the round, and suffered a hard crash I had to reboot from (which never occurs EXCEPT when I place an IDS).

Therefore, it struck me as particularly odd that there was even any discussion as to whether an IDS thrown early causes crashes or not. In my mind, that is an established fact. Sometimes it DOES cause crashes, sometimes it DOESN'T - much in the same way that sometimes alt+tab results in a crash, and sometimes it doesn't.

With that knowledge you can add my voice in saying that placing the 30 second IDS warning is an excellent idea.

e: I neglected to mention another fact. The crash occurs every single time at the exact same time relative to my thrown IDS, i.e. I click attack, 0.3 seconds later it crashes - every time. It also results in the same sounds being heard each time - the sound of the two IDS pulses (boooop didi heh) going at slightly different intervals as if two had been placed next to each other.

**Mixa** · 06-12-2009, 08:36 AM

I have also seen this happen on pubby server, but it was far more worse than it was from on TG server. First of all I think it was 40 player Camp-G, so there were 20 guys frozen at harbor. Anyway later on I was able to spawn into the enemy squad leads O.o. It was highly confusing when you spawn in and then you see a guy who is exactly as much confused as you...

It will repeat 0.5 second that happened during the IDS flying in the air (or something), but it is very short time and all audio that you've heard (voip / shot) in that time will keep playing over and over...

I also say that we test this. As I also have never experienced PDS crash, but plenty of IDS ones, but it would be nice to know what things make it happen as it isn't just throwing it down.

**LordKelvin** · 06-12-2009, 01:12 PM

Another bizzare bug happened to me today on the DiG server... I field unlocked the IDS, joined a squad, then noticed we had no commander. While I applied I pulled it out, then accepted the commander spot, and dropping the IDS. I got kicked to the multiplayer select screen, I rejoined, and was somehow STILL in the squad I had left. The result was a squad of 7 people. i wish I knew what my screen capture button was... this was enough to make me scratch my head... and if that wasn't enough, I was also the commander of the team!

A real WTF moment and I quit the game, not wanting to play that round with such a bugged exploit-type thing going on.

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