Re: Remember, Remember ...

**DrProctor** · 06-30-2009, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by Zoraster

Perhaps we're misunderstanding each other though. I said "once the round starts." I have a hard time believing you object to that or suggest that Team A should "go easy" on Team B in the middle of a round.

I at no point stated such a thing. However, having been a regular on our servers for a year, I can say that past few months have seen more and more incidents of one team completely stomping another for many rounds in a row. Seemingly in the name of 'friends playing with each other in locked squads'. That may just be my obversation.

**Zoraster** · 06-30-2009, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by DrProctor

I at no point stated such a thing. However, having been a regular on our servers for a year, I can say that past few months have seen more and more incidents of one team completely stomping another for many rounds in a row. Seemingly in the name of 'friends playing with each other in locked squads'. That may just be my obversation.

And I didn't mean to suggest that you did. Only that your response indicated that you thought my statement, if taken on face value, was contrary to the values we should be pushing at TG. And so I wanted to clarify my own statement to make sure we did not misunderstand each other.

the final quote that WhiskeySix used to close this discussion last time was:

That's a good statement, but I think it misses the full breadth of the point big-eye was trying to make.

**MrTango** · 06-30-2009, 11:15 PM

I know... its just that it seems like we went through this whole discussion a couple weeks ago, and after three pages of uberlong posts, that was the summation. I fully agree with big-eye's opening post and with yours as well.

**KnyghtMare** · 06-30-2009, 11:48 PM

Yes we just had this discussion ...

... but I feel ashamed of the TG community at large that we went the issues presented and nothing has changed.

**Zoraster** · 07-01-2009, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by KnyghtMare

Yes we just had this discussion ...

... but I feel ashamed of the TG community at large that we went the issues presented and nothing has changed.

Well, what exactly do you want to change? I don't feel "ashamed" of the community all, though I share some of the particular concerns big-eye has mentioned.

I've only been back for a month now, but I can categorically tell you that this has ALWAYS been an issue brought up by members since 2142 started. It also predates 2142. They've gone through the same issues in Battlefield 2.

The truth of the matter is that while players should be cognizant of the skills of teams, they do not -- nor should they have -- an absolute duty to perform the exact science of balancing each team every round. The game is meant to be played, not agonized over.

Yes, it sucks to be on the losing side for multiple rounds. Yes, people shouldn't stack teams on purpose. Yes, I hold those who do take their time to balance teams in high esteem. But no, I don't believe we should demonize those who don't care to spend their time switching teams for every way the wind blows.

---
To me, the important point to draw from big-eye is not the team balance issue per say. That's one that's been relived over and over. It's about the plethora of locked squads with a predetermined roster. And from THERE flows this particular -- and somewhat different -- critique of the team balance.

While I think these locked squads have their place, I completely agree with him that these can and do often pose a problem for the goal that TG should strive for: mature fun.

**Zhohar** · 07-01-2009, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by DrProctor

get stomped on as a learning process.

During the advancement of my first Brigadier General, I knew so little that my enjoyment of the game was only related to my own performance. And if I had performed badly as a result of a team-wide loss (ie the other side was better), I would feel horrible because I figured it was my fault I did so poorly.

I wouldn't say "being stomped on" was detrimental to my learning process. If anything, I would wager to say, from an objective standpoint, that it has increased my urge for self-betterment.

Your mileage may vary, as they say.

**Fruvous** · 07-01-2009, 02:54 AM

I think it is pretty easy to settle into a comfortable niche. I think a decent kick in the arse would help alleviate this.

Personally, I love SLing a group of people I never played with before. I'm pretty guilty for not SMing with SLs I'm not familiar with.

I kindof disagree with Zhohar's perspective though. While one aspect of TG is self-betterment, I think TG is more about fun. That's the biggest reason why I (and hopefully most of the members) joined.

Challenges are fun. An opposing team with good teamwork is hard to beat, but it's a fun challenge because your team has the same potential and endeavors to use their best skills and teamwork to gain that extra edge.
I think that if both teams experience the heart-pounding and time-crunching challenge, then we have ourselves a fun game

Consistent losses of 100some tickets is marginally fun for the winning team, and disheartening for most on the losing team.

**RoadWarrior** · 07-01-2009, 03:45 AM

Great post big-eye, I remember Crux trying to say something similar once before. We should strive to have those really close games. When games end really close, everyone remembers them and posts get created galore. It creates a buzz. It's fun.

If a match goes too one sided, have a look at the teams and see if the skill or numbers are one sided. If you feel that you can help the losing team, change over and pull a squad together.

Here's a thought, maybe the TG IHS members take some leadership and go to the weaker side if it is obvious that the teams are not balanced. Announce it in TS so people know that some folks are changing ( to avoid a massive team switch). Don't worry about whether you are going to win or lose, but focus on trying to get the game as close as possible.

**FYAH29** · 07-01-2009, 04:21 AM

I just don't see this as black and white, are we here to "have fun, teach, enjoy the game without becoming too serious." or "play at a higher competitive level, play with the players we know best, and dominate if possible". Some nights I'm only interested in playing with my IHS members, other nights I'm only interested in a more relaxed game and mixing it up with other TG members or non-members. I'll take the losses and deal with them, even if it's over and over. I'll enjoy the wins, knowing that it won't last forever and tomorrow could be a very different day in regards to what I want and what I get.

The TG way and the question "are we playing the TG way" is defined by:

The primer...
http://www.tacticalgamer.com/tactica...er-primer.html

The basic rules of conduct...
http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...s-conduct.html

The 2142 Rules and Guidlines...
http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...uidelines.html

I've read the above posts, although maybe it's been awhile since I've read them all. To my knowledge there isn't anything specific regarding my approach to the game or individual rounds. It isn't illegal to play with my IHS. It is illegal to switch in order to gain advantage or improve your W/L ratio, but not to move to the side of your friends or IHS as long as it doesn't imbalance the sides as per number of players on each side. As has been said many times before, and I agree, TG members do a heck of job balancing the sides if a perceived problem exists. Asking in TS works wonders, although maybe not "complaining" in TS. The admins always respond when asked, we may like or dislike the rulings, but we as TG members acquiesce and move on.

My individual answer to the question of "Are we playing the TG way" at least in regards to 2142 is...

1. Am I in a squad attempting to utilize teamwork, and following SL and CO orders? yes
2. Do I have audio? yes
3. Am I bunny-hopping or crack-jumping? no
4. Am I camping the UCB? no
5. Am I spawn camping? no
6. Have I used suicide tactics? no
7. Is my vehicle use considered realistic? yes
8. Is my SL beacon where it shouldn't be? no
9. Am I using vulgar language, harassing comments, or being slanderous? no

"Am I playing the TG way?" I think for me the answer is yes.

I'm not trying to make light or minimize anyone's opinion and respect the viewpoint of Big-Eye and Zoraster (not purposely picking on you fellas), but alot of this is perception of the individual player. Obviously locking squads, perceived stacking, IHS's, what it means to "be TG", etc, are important to many if not all TG players, but can we really dictate wether a server players is there to only "have fun" or to "dominate". We make room for both and we compromise.

Further reading for those not completely up to date on this long-ongoing discussion

http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...rs-server.html

http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...ck-squads.html

http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...tobalance.html

http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...rrrr-argh.html

http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...-teamates.html

http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...query-3rd.html

http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...king-much.html

http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...rreaction.html

http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...air-games.html

**Greyed** · 07-01-2009, 05:06 AM

Question is, is 8 hours of rolling too much in your eyes or is that "playing the TG way?"

**BeSiege82** · 07-01-2009, 05:29 AM

Must we forget why why we play, must we forget why we come here, must we forget why we chose to accept the code, must we forget what made us this way today?

I detest going into detail over and over again on topics such as this, but do we need to? If we would reevaluate our position what would we find?

I have pointed out this sense of tension that is growing months ago, but now it is showing growth. Look at the threads, people. Look at the thread by the member of the 12th that had fun rofl-coptering, look at how it was turned to ashes. Look at the earlier thread on the topic of team switching, I took the effort to write uber-long posts in order to explain to WhiskeySix what should be. How much of my time was taken up in order to explain to a fellow gamer what the real situation should be? Why must you repeat this garbage? Look at the Ribbons thread that was made months ago, I found myself doing the very same thing as I am doing now. Why must this be so? I find that there is something very negative growing here and I do not like it. At one time it was over simple things like snipers, but now that there is a fixation over players, then there is a huge problem. If you begin thinking about players, then you call into question of the very existence of the In House Squads. Do you really want to be the people that are remembered as the destroyers of the In House Squad system? Do you want to push your friends away?

If you wish to stir up problems go ahead my friends, but as for me, I am growing tired of trying to quell such garbage. I am not administrator and I am glad that I am not. But as a member of an In House Squad and one who has seen many of you go through that In House Squads doors, I expect nothing but better attitudes from you. Remember, I grow tired of this because I see that some of you are forgetting what you learned.

Yes, Axis of Eevil is right when he calls me the "Prophet of Doom and Gloom." I hate it when I see it and I make it known. View me as a jerk, but if more of this comes, the more I will not want to be part of this. That will be the day that will make me want to leave for a better place.

To the writer of the original post: I am glad how you wrote your post. You said your thoughts on our current issue within the Battlefield 2142 community and your thoughts on the Battlefield 2142 community as a whole. I appreciate that you wrote it as a fellow player and member. It is a shame though that the issue you write about currently exists and has to be addressed.

**FYAH29** · 07-01-2009, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by Greyed

Question is, is 8 hours of rolling too much in your eyes or is that "playing the TG way?"

Do you want to clarify who you mean specifically by "your"?

Do you mean by "rolling" to be 1 side winning round after round, again and again?

Have you really seen "8 hours" of any one side dominating the other, or are you exagerating just a little bit. I admit it's been a while since I've spent 8 hours on the server in one sitting, but I find a more than a little hard to believe that anything goes on for more than a few (to clarify 5-6) rounds.

**big-eye101** · 07-01-2009, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by Zoraster

That's a good statement, but I think it misses the full breadth of the point big-eye was trying to make.

Very true!

Balance is one thing. And this thread is slowly turning into one of those "teambalance-threads"

Take a moment and think about your first time on TG. You suddenly had to join a squad. You suddenly had to follow orders. You suddenly found a place where people work as a team. Work for theire team and not for themselfs. You found a place where people love teamwork and good sportsmanship. What do you think do visitors think about TG now when they see a lot of locked-squads? What would theire impression of the community be now? Would they come here and be happy to be a part of it? Would they recived trust? Or even - are they affraid of making mistakes? Would they feel a sense of belonging and/or companionship?

Is the game really just the ultimate ticket-game? In a scrim or competative situation very likely. But during a regular round? Maybe it is more! Like teaching newcomers, endorsing teamwork, spreading TG love/fun and that TG welcomes all teamwork-oriented players, no matter what skill or experience-level.

What about those two paragraphs? I haven't seen many replys picking that thought up ...

Zoraster is absolutely correct. I'm trying to say more and make you think even deeper. ... Hope that makes sense ...

**black_Mirror** · 07-01-2009, 07:05 AM

I can report that hopping in the server with the only goal to even teams and switch sides even mid-round to even stuff out is fun at all! Yesterday Big-eye, Silver and myself did that for a few rounds and it was great! One of the first rounds ended something like 120-0, than 70-0 , 37-0 and the last game i was online was a 7-0 game!
I am willing to offer my free time and a bit of my own fun to save and secure more fun for everyone. Remember it´s the greater good we are after not our own goals at all. We are a family-like unit and we should act as one.

**Greyed** · 07-01-2009, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by FYAH29

Do you want to clarify who you mean specifically by "your"?

It was directly after your post.

Do you mean by "rolling" to be 1 side winning round after round, again and again?

Yes.

Have you really seen "8 hours" of any one side dominating the other, or are you exagerating just a little bit. I admit it's been a while since I've spent 8 hours on the server in one sitting, but I find a more than a little hard to believe that anything goes on for more than a few (to clarify 5-6) rounds.

Seen it? Used it as an example just a few days ago And when people expressed disbelief I pointed them to my 2142-stats.com history and the 2nd graph where on the 25th the wins are completely flat. 8 hours with at least 2 rounds of Operation Shingle going to capout with <20 tickets lost on the attacking side.

So, is 8 hours ok? I really do want to know. Because if it is that tells me something. And if it isn't then one has to ask what is considered acceptable. Where is the line drawn where comrade and community give way to cheapness and cruelty?

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