Rules Clarification: Knifing

**Cheburash** · 07-12-2009, 12:33 PM

Last night, I reported someone for rushing myself and my squadmates with a knife. While technically not against the TG Primer or the BF2142 rules, I view this as a suicide tactic, which was the motivation for the report.

To my great surprise, my statement in TS generated a significant discussion. I missed much of it due to people talking all at once, but the gist of it was, "what the HELL are you smoking, Cheb?"

I'd like to receive a clarification on this point: Where do the admins draw the line on attacking someone with a knife?

Is it OK when...

You're behind a sniper at a remote location
You're behind a sniper and see red dots on your minimap, right around the corner
You're in front of a sniper, who just missed you with the rifle
You're a short distance away from a single assault or support who is facing you
You're a short distance away from two or three people who are facing you
You see a squad's worth of red dots around the corner from you so you're going to knife the bejesus out of them

(Though in retrospect, that particular report wasn't justified: This was the very end of a round and, despite four of us being near the flag, I believe the knifeman could only see two of us)

**Exploding_Silver** · 07-12-2009, 12:39 PM

My understanding is;
1) if i am behind someone and close and they dont see me then knifing is ok, but i usually just shoot them anyway
2) running through a hail of bullets, zig zagging to try and dodge them, is suicide tactics and against the server rules and to be reported

from your story you reported it and the discussion was from everybody but an admin

**draeh** · 07-12-2009, 12:49 PM

Rushing headlong into an enemy(s) with your knife drawn is generally a suicide tactic. The argument can be made that if your out of ammo it could be done as a last resort, but I contend that you should instead be looking for cover as you make your retreat.

**Zoraster** · 07-12-2009, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exploding_Silver

My understanding is;
1) if i am behind someone and close and they dont see me then knifing is ok, but i usually just shoot them anyway
2) running through a hail of bullets, zig zagging to try and dodge them, is suicide tactics and against the server rules and to be reported

from your story you reported it and the discussion was from everybody but an admin

this just seems like one of those things that shouldn't be much of an issue. Unlike bunny hopping, charging head first into bullets with a knife is not helpful for your survival.

Unless there's reason to believe the person is trying to die (for example, so he can spawn on his SL who broke through) or unless this is all this dufus is doing, it seems unimportant and not worthy of wasting admin time with.

After all, he's going to die doing this which is a pretty good incentive for him not to do it. And if he's in a situation where he DOESN'T die, and he knifes you... well, it's not really a suicide tactic.

This just seems like such a fussy thing to care about. There may be legitimate reasons for him using his knife that you aren't aware of. Just as an example, if he hears you reloading your weapon, he doesn't have ammo in his gun, perhaps he thinks he can get the jump on you. I'd argue this is a bad idea, but it's certainly not something that should be against the rules.

That said, if this guy has been doing it a lot, or if he's trying to get some advantage for dying (switching kits, spawning on his SL, etc), then yeah. It's a good idea to report. Otherwise, shoot the fool and laugh at him.

**Mixa** · 07-12-2009, 12:56 PM

Knifing is always very suicidal, if the guy is un-aware that there is someone behind you, you might still miss him (knife goes through) and he has time to kill you. I'd say that the guy you told about went too far, as it might have just been ''I'll just take as many tags as I can before dying''

But if really rushing corners with knife out into the clearly hostile territory is suicidal I've missed plenty of reports. Just need to remember that knife is hard weapon and only works on extremely close range, so you have to look for the spots.

Also problem with this is how much ammo the guy had, though he still shouldn't run in enemy squad in attempt to get free tags before certain death.

fair report imo

XXXDemon007 · 07-12-2009, 12:57 PM

I'm not gonna try to draw the line, I'll let a more seasoned player or an admin do that, but I was knife-rushed by the same guy THREE TIMES! I was with my squad all three times, but never got the kill, and hence did not get his name, because that was definitely a suicide tactic. I'm sure the enemy had an IDS, because they seemed to know where we were and were acting accordingly. But sir knifes-a-lot would rush straight at us from around a corner and of course, die a suicidal death, because he was pumped full of Baur-lead, Voss-lead, Clark-lead, and Krylov-lead, with many kill damage assists thrown in. The only time I knife is when I clearly have the advantage ie. a sniper 5m away lying prone and scoped with an IDS covering the area. I sprint in, dive, and get his tags, and two seconds after I drew my knife, my gun is back out. Other times, when others would use the pistol, I choose to use the knife... Normally this would be considered a suicide tactic, but not in my case. I personally SUCK with the pistol, and will stay alive longer and protect my SL/SMembers better if I can eliminate the enemy. I have had more success with the knife compared to the pistol that, when I run out of ammo and reloading, even with the Baur, is not an option, I will draw the blade, as my chances of survival are much better. (I spent too much time on those stupid knife servers in my noob days)

Sorry for the long post, but It just annoys the hell out of my when a suicidal knifer comes to TG

- Demon

**Lyramion** · 07-12-2009, 01:00 PM

It is OK when...

... you always knife Chris Hooper - wherever and whenever - since you must expect he is a Sniper
... you throw your knife over 20 meters into the enemies left eye.
... knife Zohar and keep the knife sticking in the back of his head to prevent him from selfhealing and regenerating
... use the knife no the Battlefield to create a tasty sandwich.
... use the knife to jam the kneecaps of Harrys Walker
... use the knife to hunt down that dam bird on Verdun

**Zoraster** · 07-12-2009, 01:01 PM

I wish gunships came with those hooks on the back of the speeders in Empire Strikes Back. Take down a walker real easy.

Jetheren · 07-12-2009, 01:03 PM

I think that the best solution to your problem Cheb is the Contact an Admin Forum. They can give you your best answer.

**DrakenViator** · 07-12-2009, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyramion

It is OK when...

... you always knife Chris Hooper - wherever and whenever - since you must expect he is a Sniper
... you throw your knife over 20 meters into the enemies left eye.
... knife Zohar and keep the knife sticking in the back of his head to prevent him from selfhealing and regenerating
... use the knife no the Battlefield to create a tasty sandwich.
... use the knife to jam the kneecaps of Harrys Walker
... use the knife to hunt down that dam bird on Verdun

Lyra, thanks man you're always good for a laugh!

~ Draken

**MrTango** · 07-12-2009, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyramion

It is OK when...

... you always knife Chris Hooper - wherever and whenever - since you must expect he is a Sniper
... you throw your knife over 20 meters into the enemies left eye.
... knife Zohar and keep the knife sticking in the back of his head to prevent him from selfhealing and regenerating
... use the knife no the Battlefield to create a tasty sandwich.
... use the knife to jam the kneecaps of Harrys Walker
... use the knife to hunt down that dam bird on Verdun

Quoted for humor AND truth!

**LordKelvin** · 07-12-2009, 01:47 PM

I seem to be the victim of these last-ditch knife tactics too often. My squad and I will engage an enemy squad in CQC and inevitably one of them will run out of ammo, charge through 4 other squadmates all firing a fussilade of lead at him, and knife ME a split second before dying.

And this is despite the fact that I'm firing a Herzog at him, while he's rushing me.

And it isn't my imagination. It happened 5! times in a single Belgrade round the other day, and happens at least once on every infantry map. How is it physically possible?

I think I should just hand out my tags for free, since they apparently can be taken even through the firepower of a full squad. :|

**flik2142** · 07-12-2009, 01:50 PM

The Knife has great potential, one shot instant kill anywhere on body, no worry about ammo, can, with skill, rapidly take down several enemies in close quarters (i.e. three people lying down capping a flag taking cover from nades/orbitals).

I think it is difficult to tell if a knifer is suicider. What about a guy who runs at your squad with a gun? Do you get angry about that, or is it the fact the knifer is gonna take your tags and it becomes more than just a death. Is it suicidal for an engineer to rush a walker and hope he can get there in time to take a shot underneath its legs? I've seen plenty of players who have managed to rush a teammate, or myself, with the knife and taken the kill. I've seen a player take out 4 players with a knife in close quarters using prone tricks and avoiding fire. I can't do it, and when it's my tags I get angry, but really, hats off to people who can do it. If they aren't bunny hopping, dolphin diving etc, then it's a perfectly legal weapon. Yes there may be better ways to go about killing single or multiple enemies, but I don't see it as being against the rules.

I guess the problem is when players seem dedicated on getting more tags and don't care about dying themselves, as for one they are most certainly ignoring any squad orders if they are doing this. Also, the 'getting killed for advantage' as Zoraster points out is against the rules.

**Eroak** · 07-12-2009, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyramion

... knife Zohar and keep the knife sticking in the back of his head to prevent him from selfhealing and regenerating

Zhohar is a troll? KILL IT WITH FIRE!

I'll sit aside a player with the knifing becomes selfish. We I see a player run from ruins to Statue with jsut his knife and never switch back. When I see someone cloak and dagger over and over for a whole round. When I see someone leave his squad and run into a enemy team with his knife the whole time.

Basicly when a player gives up his awareness and thoughts about the team. I do understand incidents where a player accidently pulls the knife trying to get a defib out or a pistol. It happens, but seeming it 4 or 5 times in the same round. Then I'll start to question the motives of the player.

Remember you can make private reports in squad chat and we'll still see it on our clients and chat log.

**Zoraster** · 07-12-2009, 02:50 PM

A couple things. I'll reiterate my first point which is that I really don't think we should be bothering with trying to divine intent or legislating play style beyond some basic parameters. If a player seems to just be going for knife kills (anyone remember the Squadplay server trying to knife Lyra?), then yes. It's time to get admins involved. If someone just uses his knife a lot, no. it's not admin worthy.

Second, and just a thought... some people (i've even come across Brig Gens) still haven't realized your weapon equipped makes no difference to run rate. In some games, notably Counterstrike, running with your knife speeds you up. It's habit for some people. A bad habit that they should stop, but not exactly kickable

---
Oh, and I know it sounds like I'm defending knifers. I'm really not. I find the knife a truly terrible way of playing. Out of my 21k kills, only 32 are from my knife -- I use my pistol as my secondary weapon. I just think except for extreme situations where the person is clearly just not playing a TG style game, we ought to leave it alone and let people develop their own play style.