Winning the game at all costs? - Page 4

EmperorMustard · 08-24-2009, 07:56 PM

Another one of the factors that cause people to leave a squad mid round is that people want to play with the 'elite' squad leaders, the people who are widely seen as being the cremé de la cremé. You can't blame them, as these people are seen as the best SL's for a reason, because they are fun to play with or are good tacticians. But must we really leave a round mid-round? It must be heartbreaking for a fairly new SL to see his squad jump ship to somebody else. Even though they may have done nothing wrong they will feel at fault and this will put them off, which is not what TG is about. TG is about enjoying the game in a fairly competitive environment, not discouraging others from progressing as a squad leader, or commander for that matter. At the end of the day, I'm sure you can wait until the end of the round to play with your buddies or IHS, but spare a thought for how a newcomer to squad leading will feel if you jump ship unless there is a valid reason. Not everybody will be disheartened, but not everybody is the same. At the end of the day, a new SL will more than likely be bad, but to see people following their orders will encourage them more than people running off everywhere, even if the orders are bad. They can only get better, better with experience they will not get if they are treated wrongly and decide to not SL...

On this theory, I've seen a few TG jumping ship from one side to the other thus causing team imbalance in recent days presumably for the same reasons as mentioned above. This is especially annoying when our team is being stuffed and needs all the help we can get!!

These incidents are rare and most players are impecable but from time to time I do share a tut tut with myself.

**Spur** · 08-24-2009, 08:14 PM

I stopped reading this thread eventually, and I am just gonna post my 2 cents. Personally, once in a squad I do not leave. If I don't like the playstyle of said squad leader, I do not join their squad next time. I do not leave even when my own ihs invites me to a squad.

That said, an individual has every right to leave a squad mid round because their play style differs from the squad lead. As a squad leader I would have no hard feelings about it. I would rather they leave and get a squad member who has no hesitation following orders, and no hesitation giving me suggestions.

The only issue I ever have when a person leaves a squad is the terms in which they left it. If they are jerks, that is bad, if they are civil, that is good.

Again, this is just my preference and opinion.

**Lorax74** · 08-24-2009, 08:17 PM

I only ever leave a squad that I joined if the SL spawns and jumps right into a tank without saying one word over VoIP and without setting orders. Other than that, Spur pretty much sums it up my thoughts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spur

... Personally, once in a squad I do not leave. If I don't like the playstyle of said squad leader, I do not join their squad next time. I do not leave even when my own ihs invites me to a squad.

That said, an individual has every right to leave a squad mid round because their play style differs from the squad lead. As a squad leader I would have no hard feelings about it. I would rather they leave and get a squad member who has no hesitation following orders, and no hesitation giving me suggestions.

The only issue I ever have when a person leaves a squad is the terms in which they left it. If they are jerks, that is bad, if they are civil, that is good.
...

Shane · 08-24-2009, 10:03 PM

All you need is love, la lalala, laaa! R.E.S.P.E.C.T. or BEAT IT! just BEAT IT,BEAT IT!

LOL I enjoy playing with all of U Win lose or draw, and beetles > Micheal. So :}

**BarrytBaptist** · 08-24-2009, 10:09 PM

"On this theory, I've seen a few TG jumping ship from one side to the other thus causing team imbalance in recent days presumably for the same reasons as mentioned above. This is especially annoying when our team is being stuffed and needs all the help we can get!!"

It does happen and, yes, I saw some TG supporting members do that on regular basis... Personally, it does not matter to me since I get my fair share of kills on either side.

When it comes to Squad leading, I basically avoid playing with some people because I do not like their playing style, do not know them at all or they want to win so badly that, in the end, they lose... I play to relax (as much as I hate this word but I am compelled to use it in this context) when I get home, not to have a F.......... HEART ATTACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For those who disagree with Squad Leaders, create your own squad or remember this one ...

"Cowards die many times before their deaths. The valiant never taste of death but once."" and you can always beat your opponent on revives!!!

**Lyramion** · 08-24-2009, 11:42 PM

Quote:

"On this theory, I've seen a few TG jumping ship from one side to the other thus causing team imbalance in recent days presumably for the same reasons as mentioned above. This is especially annoying when our team is being stuffed and needs all the help we can get!!"

lol the truth is rather.....

-Teams 21-19
-Someone says in Teamspeak "PAC is 2 men down!"
-2 people from PAC switch over
-D´oh, now it´s 19-21
-Someone else mentions the unbalance
-3 people counterswitch over
-23-18
-D´oh unbalanced again
-Someone in TS goes "ZOMG JUST LOOK AT THE TEAMS NO WONDER WE GET CREAMED!"
-Teamswitching goes on till teams are even or in 1 man range.
-Startup timer has gotten very small now
-Coordination and preperation can severly lack on one or both teams
-One Team gets creamed
-Next round start rinse repeat

I am not exegerating here. This happens often. I seen literally 60% of the teams switch places in a good effort to balance things out

**sc1ence** · 08-24-2009, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyramion

lol the truth is rather.....

-Teams 21-19
-Someone says in Teamspeak "PAC is 2 men down!"
-2 people from PAC switch over
-D´oh, now it´s 19-21
-Someone else mentions the unbalance
-3 people counterswitch over
-23-18
-D´oh unbalanced again
-Someone in TS goes "ZOMG JUST LOOK AT THE TEAMS NO WONDER WE GET CREAMED!"
-Teamswitching goes on till teams are even or in 1 man range.
-Startup timer has gotten very small now
-Coordination and preperation can severly lack on one or both teams
-One Team gets creamed
-Next round start rinse repeat

I am not exegerating here. This happens often. I seen literally 60% of the teams switch places in a good effort to balance things out

I see this same general pattern often as well. I had made a suggestion to the admin team to consider reimplementing autobalance. But I think it would take the community to request we put it back on.

**Zoraster** · 08-25-2009, 12:08 AM

no. do not reimplement autobalance. It makes things worse. It might make the numbers okay, but it does nothing for real balance. The numbers almost always even out within a matter of minutes.

Kossst · 08-25-2009, 12:17 AM

I've notice that the TG server crash much less since at month or so. I don't know if the autobalance was a part of the reason but if it is, I think we should keep the statu quo on that.

**PennyFlame** · 08-25-2009, 12:22 AM

Nooooo not autobalance. It sucks when you put a lot of effort into your team and you get auto'ed to the other side. Might as well have been a secret agent teamkilling everyone =)

**Sluggo78** · 08-25-2009, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhohar

Science is talking about me, so let's clarify the situation.

I followed the order to assault up the west hill. In fact, I died following it, and I wasn't revived because my body was covered by a machine gun. There was an EU squad high above us on the west side.
Half of our squad died, in fact, before I said:

"I don't think this is a smart idea. The fight for Roadblock is the one we can win. They've already got people high west."

Science repeated the order.
Someone else said something to the effect of "this is not a good idea".
Science then said "Excuse me -- I'm the squad leader here, follow the orders."
I said "No offense science, I don't think this is a good idea. I'm out of here," and left to join another TG squad.

Why did I leave?
For one, I don't think your order was fun. It felt suicidal, to be honest, and there was a better alternative -- to fight from behind cover betwen STC and Roadblock.
For two, and more importantly, after I and someone else had said in pretty neutral tones that what we were doing wasn't a good idea, it didn't feel like you had even bothered to listen -- you had a goal, and our comments were just pesky whining. I didn't really want you to agree with me -- just listening is enough.

Maybe I misinterpreted your tone in the heat of the moment, but those two combined ... well, it wasn't the way I wanted to spend time.

I am a competitive player, and I do play to win. At any cost?
Hmm ... well. I'm 21, and I do lose sight of the bigger picture. I've said and done things that would be better fitting someone much younger than me.

But I've never had genuine intent to win at any cost. And the urge to win certainly wasn't why I left your squad: I didn't think your order was fun, and I didn't think you were listening to what we were saying.
That's how I saw it.

I was "That other person". I am agreeing with Zohar, i recognized the situation, we were at a tactical disadvantage and had an easy escape route to our disposal. EU had a squad defending that hill, firing down rockets. Inevitable as it might seem, we pretty much all wiped. I did say it in a calm tone, not in a way where it might have sounded harsh or disrespectful.

Greyed · 08-25-2009, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaezarFox

I can see points from everyone's sides, but what's wrong with wanting to do something in a way you find agreeable? Why is it wrong to switch to a different squad if you do not find your current SL's style of playing matching your own?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LogicalHarm

One thing I would like to add to this discussion:

How can we expect to encourage new squad leaders if those in their squad are ready to get up and leave?

These two dovetail perfectly into what I want to say on this topic. What's the harm in switching it the SL playstyle isn't to your liking? The answer is that the SL needs room to learn, adjust and grow. Those two people felt the move was wrong. However, Sc1 was right, his squad, his call. It may have been the wrong move but the only way he's going to learn to recognize that is by doing it. To do it requires the full squad becuse anything less than the full squad and the lesson switches from "Well, there's no way we could take that" to "Well, if we had those other two guys..."

I feel it is inappropriate to leave a squad when the SL is active and putting his best effort forward even if you disagree with the individual orders or overall style. It's one round, give the SL your best so they can learn and then make a mental note to not join their squad for a few weeks. But give them that round; they deserve it for stepping up to form a squad in the first place.

So when is it appropriate to leave a squad if not for playstyle or order differences? Personality problems or an inactive/uncommunicative SL. The SL isn't setting orders, not giving you verbal cues on what to do, IE, not leading, fine, drop to go elsewhere. The SL being verbal to the point of abusive or chattering away about everything but the game? Fine, drop and leave. It's clear they're not attempting to lead to the best of their abilities or they may be doing so but leading in an abusive manner that is not something we have to take in game.

I have left squads because the SL was doing no leading. I've left squads because the SL (TG tagged at that) were verbally abusive to the SMs. I have never left a squad because I disagreed with the orders the SL gave (even if I felt I knew better) or because their playstyle was not to my liking.

The irony here is that the two people that admitted to dropping out in this case are two SLs whose squads I won't join any time in the near future. I have SMed for both and in both cases, if I were them, would have left their squads mid-game. But they stepped up to lead. I signed on to follow. For that round, better or worse, that's what they got. Maybe in a few weeks time I'll sign up for their squads to see if we mesh better. But that's a process that was, and is, best left to between rounds, not right in the middle.

**Gorhaut** · 08-25-2009, 05:40 AM

Stalin once said about russian soldiers during WWI something along the lines that "they voted with their feet". It is a game after all and if you feel so strongly about it, leaving is the last option you have. As I, perhaps to indirectly, said in the cleverness thread, the best way of enhancing new or less experienced squadleaders is by talking to them, sharing your views in a non-offensive manner. Giving your SL alternatives is always good. I personally have been spared, but I have heard some comments towards other SL which have been, politely put "nonconstructive" and hence I wanted highlight what I thought was a better way of easing in new people.

Sometimes, following orders agains't your better judgement will give someone else valuable experience making them better in the future...and they probably will listen to you more aswell. You also, atleast I do, sometimes learn a thing or two yourself...other people might be able to do things you didn't think you could for an example.

Leaving really should be the last option though. And leaving only because "a famous squadleader" starts a squad is in my personal opinion not a good enough reason. Ok if it happens before the timers runs out, but not in the middle of round. Not if you have an squad leader who is trying. Of course, if you have a squad leaders who isn't trying, leaving is the ultimate critique. But in general, I agree with Spurs post above.

Note: I'm talking in general and not about the specific case that prompted the first post in this thread.

@Besiege, if you squadlead often enough you will after a while meet people who like your way of doing things and they will seek out your squads. Different people like different things and hence wants/likes to play with different types of squadleaders. And mayhap due to being european and not playing so much on american hightime I found that the biggest issue is a general lack of squadleaders and therefore forcing me to squadlead.

As for teambalance discussion, don't we have other threads for that?

EmperorMustard · 08-25-2009, 06:29 AM

Autobalance would not be good, as if a team was overloaded with TG compared to the other, it would be impossible for the teams to become balanced. I guess we just have to trust that people will do the right thing.

**Lyramion** · 08-25-2009, 07:04 AM

Autobalance is worse for our server than disabling it. This is due to the fact that 1+1 on our server doesn´t always equal 2. The right people in a squad together rise team strengh exponentially and not in a linear way because their teamwork benefits everyone, making everyone around them stronger.

People just need to learn to call out and calculate unbalanced teams the right way. Mantis has done this before asking very carefully for ONE and only ONE person to slowly switch over. If it´s then still badly unbalanced, then the next one.