Re: Winning the game at all costs?

**SharinganTH1422** · 08-25-2009, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by INSUNABULA

How about the SL says a simple disclaimer at the beginning of the count-down to inform the squad what is expected of them and give them the option to find another squad (people join not knowing what will be expected of them). Other than that, all I can say is that if you agree to be a member then be a member.

The expectation should always be to follow orders, no more, no less. Being a good squad member means attempting to carry out your SL's plans to the best of your ability, if you can't do that then there's no point in you even being there.

**Greyed** · 08-25-2009, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by INSUNABULA

How about the SL says a simple disclaimer at the beginning of the count-down to inform the squad what is expected of them and give them the option to find another squad (people join not knowing what will be expected of them).

Not tenable. SL's get kicked off to make room for Supporting members, crash out or pop into the CO chair.

**Crux** · 08-25-2009, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by Greyed

Not tenable. SL's get kicked off to make room for Supporting members, crash out or pop into the CO chair.

Bwah? Either I'm missing something in what you're saying, or you're missing something in what Insun is saying!

**BeSiege82** · 08-25-2009, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by Crux

Bwah? Either I'm missing something in what you're saying, or you're missing something in what Insun is saying!

Bwah! I'm missing it all...

**Greyed** · 08-26-2009, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by Crux

Bwah? Either I'm missing something in what you're saying, or you're missing something in what Insun is saying!

The point we have is that people are leaving the squad because they don't like the SL's style or the SL's orders. Insun proposed that the SL explain what's their intentions are at the beginning of the round to give people a chance to get out of the squad prior to round start. My point is that it is immaterial since SLs can, and often do, switch mid-round often through no fault of their own (kicked for room, crashed out) or for the betterment of the team (taking the CO chair). At that time the SMs are now under a new SL with a new style and new orders.

**Zoraster** · 08-26-2009, 01:37 AM

Originally Posted by Greyed

The point we have is that people are leaving the squad because they don't like the SL's style or the SL's orders. Insun proposed that the SL explain what's their intentions are at the beginning of the round to give people a chance to get out of the squad prior to round start. My point is that it is immaterial since SLs can, and often do, switch mid-round often through no fault of their own (kicked for room, crashed out) or for the betterment of the team (taking the CO chair). At that time the SMs are now under a new SL with a new style and new orders.

This happens sometimes, but most good SLs (i.e. those who actually lead rather than just open a squad and take all the pubbies in without doing much in the way of leading) are SMs. Not all, but most.

Still, I'm not sure it's realistic to make SLs outline expectations each round.

**WhiskeySix** · 08-26-2009, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by Zoraster

Still, I'm not sure it's realistic to make SLs outline expectations each round.

<admin hat off... still>

I couldn't agree more. SL's shouldn't have to say "follow orders - even if it means you'll likely die more than YOU think you should". IMO, that's the whole point of the freakin rule!! I mean, seriously... think about it... following the chain of command wouldn't need to be a rule if it was always easy and fun to do, right?

Look, some rounds you get to hang back, stay low risk, and harvest kills; but other rounds you end up on a landing craft bound for Omaha Beach! Still other times times you spend all round defending a CP against an attack that never comes! There are sexy, stat-padding missions and then there are the thankless, boring, dirty, stat-soiling missions...

I know it's a game and we play to have fun and ultimately to win. But we also play for the teamwork, and I'd like to think that the type of player TG attracts... the type of player I want in my squad... would have the character to NOT abandon their squad when the chain of command deals a high-risk, low-reward mission.

If not win at all costs, then win at what cost?

**Greyed** · 08-26-2009, 05:14 AM

Originally Posted by WhiskeySix

If not win at all costs, then win at what cost?

.... Sssssstrippers?

(c'mon, I had to lighten up somewhere in here.

)

**Superfast** · 08-26-2009, 05:37 AM

It also comes down to immersion into the current battle, orders, situation you're in and the atmposphere and tempo the SL'er is creating for you. So if you're not up for any of those, i again think leaving and doing something else to contribute to your team and which you enjoy more is fine. But coming up with some nice constructive critism or suggestions is also fine and some actually welcome learning that way.

**INSUNABULA** · 08-26-2009, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by WhiskeySix

<admin hat off... still>

I couldn't agree more. SL's shouldn't have to say "follow orders - even if it means you'll likely die more than YOU think you should". IMO, that's the whole point of the freakin rule!! I mean, seriously... think about it... following the chain of command wouldn't need to be a rule if it was always easy and fun to do, right?

Look, some rounds you get to hang back, stay low risk, and harvest kills; but other rounds you end up on a landing craft bound for Omaha Beach! Still other times times you spend all round defending a CP against an attack that never comes! There are sexy, stat-padding missions and then there are the thankless, boring, dirty, stat-soiling missions...

I know it's a game and we play to have fun and ultimately to win. But we also play for the teamwork, and I'd like to think that the type of player TG attracts... the type of player I want in my squad... would have the character to NOT abandon their squad when the chain of command deals a high-risk, low-reward mission.

If not win at all costs, then win at what cost?

I should have mentioned that my above post was in relation to how I run infantry squads:

After I've invited a few friends (to increase the squad cohesion ratio) I then open it up to everyone else on my side. This inevitably produces one or two non-TG players which is the point. For the benefit of everyone I then lay down my expectations for the squad and wait for the conformations to call through over the squad comms from the TG players. This reinforces the principles I lay down earlier to the non-TGers that this is a squad that will be vocal and there are expectations on everyone to be met.

Once the round starts then I keep a close eye on all my squad mates on the mini-map to ensure squad-cohesion - if anyone strays (even I do that when I'm a Squad Member and my attention is focused else-where during a good fight). If there is anyone not obeying orders or staying with the squad (rarely the TG tagged players) then I bark-out over the comms to keep members together and continue the vocal reinforcement (I rarely need to kick members).

I've even run "Learn TG" squads that are full of non-TG players and by the 5 minute mark everyone is by my side and moving fluidly once they have achieved the right mind-set and accepted my game-flow as their own.

I don't mind being extra-vocal as long as by the end of the match I was able to get my members to work together as a squad - everything else is gravy.

P.S. - I should add that to avoid disenchanting your members (as a Squad Leader) when you lay down an attack order stay at the back in a well defended area of your choosing and be the mobile spawn point your squad needs you to be. I'm still guilty to this day of playing too aggressively at the front of the pack meaning if I die my squad looses its battle-momentum as they are forced to wait while I re-spawn and get into position again.

**machowner** · 08-26-2009, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Greyed

.... Sssssstrippers?

(c'mon, I had to lighten up somewhere in here.

)

The 8th will take strippers as payment for mercenary services.....

**DrProctor** · 08-26-2009, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by INSUNABULA

...I then lay down my expectations for the squad and wait for the conformations to call through over the squad comms from the TG players. This reinforces the principles I lay down earlier to the non-TGers that this is a squad that will be vocal and there are expectations on everyone to be met.

Once the round starts then I keep a close eye on all my squad mates on the mini-map to ensure squad-cohesion...

That's usually how I try to run my squads too.

Leaving a squad because you disagree with your squad-leader's orders and feel that he didn't listen to you when you thought you had a better idea is not, I would hope, the example that we want to set for others to follow. I would imagine that after two or three pushes, if there was no progress made, Sc1ence's learning mode would have kicked in and said "Heh, maybe we should try something else."

It's not against the rules to leave a squad on those terms but in terms of being sportsman-like or being a squad-member, it stinks.

**Nepharyte0** · 08-26-2009, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by machowner

The 8th will take strippers as payment for mercenary services.....

Hell, for most any services, Strippers are always acceptable payment to the 8th. Or just send strippers for no reason.

**machowner** · 08-26-2009, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Nepharyte0

Hell, for most any services, Strippers are always acceptable payment to the 8th. Or just send strippers for no reason.

I approve of this statement

**Hidus** · 08-26-2009, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by INSUNABULA

P.S. - I should add that to avoid disenchanting your members (as a Squad Leader) when you lay down an attack order stay at the back in a well defended area of your choosing and be the mobile spawn point your squad needs you to be. I'm still guilty to this day of playing too aggressively at the front of the pack meaning if I die my squad looses its battle-momentum as they are forced to wait while I re-spawn and get into position again.

Depends on the squad you are in. If I am SLing a squad of mix n match people and they are not great shots then I will play less agressively and not push as much. If it's all good players then I expect more from them so I will encourage them to move fast and keep the pressure on constantly. The thing is you will never really pull off a lot of cap outs or caps under extreme duress if you are playing it conservatively. On the other hand not every squad you are in is capable of pulling off stuff like that so it's really a matter of playing the hand you are dealt as SL.

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